Very slow bulk to minimize fat gain?

MildredBarhopper
MildredBarhopper Posts: 99 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
Hi everyone,

I have to admit I am not that educated on bulking and cutting. I have been at my goal weight for a while now, and I just finished a pretty good bodyweight training program where I have seen an increase in muscle definition. I have just started a new dumbbell routine this week (I only had puny weights, but luckily my adjustable dumbbells came in today, which will allow me to lift heavy, woohoo) and I'm still in maintenance calories. I would like to put on some muscle, but it took me soooo long to cut down on belly fat that I'm scared of gaining it back. My stomach, in fact, still isn't completely flat/ripped, but I got tired of cutting calories and I'm actually happy with how it looks and I just feel like if I start a bulk, it might undo my progress. I know I could cut after, but I just don't want to go through cutting calories again because I'm so excited about the progress I made and don't want to do it over again.

So, from what I have read, it seems like the consensus is is that it's impossible to avoid any fat, but can you minimize the amount by doing a slow bulk? I'm talking maybe only a 100 to 150 cal surplus per day. Or, would I see any progress lifting at maintenance calories? I know I wouldn't really gain at maintenance, but would I see more changes in my body, albeit slowly over time?

I hope I don't sound like an idiot, haha. I have been pretty happy with my progress this past year, especially since I have done it all at home, and if I stayed the way I look now, I would honestly be content, but nothing wrong for aiming even higher :)
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Replies

  • sculli123
    sculli123 Posts: 1,221 Member
    Slow bulk yes that's my plan this fall / winter. I hit my summer goal last week. So now I am reverse dieting and adding 100 calories per day each week until I get to my maintenance (i.e my cut was 2000 calories, last week was 2100 calories, this week is 2200 calories....my maint is 2700 calories). So it will take me 7 weeks to get to my maintanance. I may lose a little more weight during this time but not too concerned.

    Once I get to maint I might stick with it for a short while but by mid October I will start my lean bulk. I am going to take it very slow again and stick to my adding 100 calories / day each week thing until I'm about at about 3200 - 3300 calories.

    But once I get to that level I will again be checking the scale closely to make sure I don't gain too much too fast. The heaviest I plan to get this year is about 212 lbs which for me isn't that heavy (usually bulk to 220+ but I'm not going to do that anymore).

    I plan to start cutting again late January / early February and my goal for next year is going to be 190 lbs with the same amount of muscle mass I have at 195 lbs now. So I'll look like my AVI but even more lean. I'm planning to compete in a physique competition next summer.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    I could be wrong but I think, that along with minimising fat gains you would also be compromising muscle gains. The general consensus is that women can gain muscle at the rate of 0.25 lb a week (so that would need at least 3500 extra cals a month) however, it's also generally accepted that you'll always gain 1:1 muscle to fat (so you need to double the surplus to get optimum gains).

    So yes, you could minimise the fat gains but you'd roughly half your potential to build muscle.

    ETA: read this back and it sounds really negative, sorry. A lot of people do it this way, it's just slower. If you'd rather not have the fat gains then it could suit you fine.
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
    I have no experience with bulking, but I would think a 100 calorie surplus could be really hard to maintain because the surplus is so small. You might end up not having enough calories to bulk. My suggestion would be to try it out, and see if the bulk works. You'll have to add calories if you aren't bulking at the expected rate. And since you want to bulk at such a slow rate, it may take you a several months to figure out if your bulk is working or not. It will be a very slow process. (Again, this is a philosophical argument as I've never bulked.)
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    I have no experience with bulking, but I would think a 100 calorie surplus could be really hard to maintain because the surplus is so small. You might end up not having enough calories to bulk. My suggestion would be to try it out, and see if the bulk works. You'll have to add calories if you aren't bulking at the expected rate. And since you want to bulk at such a slow rate, it may take you a several months to figure out if your bulk is working or not. It will be a very slow process. (Again, this is a philosophical argument as I've never bulked.)


    good point.

    Yes, I bulked at 250 surplus and the number had to keep going up to keep the weight gain coming. Heard a lot of other people had the same experience. That is going to be extra tricky with a 100 surplus.
  • MildredBarhopper
    MildredBarhopper Posts: 99 Member
    Yeah, I know it's a small surplus, but I am okay with going really slow. Like I said, I'm just paranoid about belly fat because that seems to be the first place I gain weight. Your guys' advice to just see how it works for a while and then make changes accordingly seems to make sense.
  • Springfield1970
    Springfield1970 Posts: 1,945 Member
    I had a great bulk last winter adding 8lb at 250 extra cals per day.

    Make sure you eat all your exercise cals back (it's easier if you don't do too much cardio) or you'll be spinning your wheels.

    It took me a while to work out my burns and maintenance cals, but once I hit the sweet spot it was go go go!

    since burned very slowly 4lb off. I'm very very happy, it's taken me 43 years to get to the place where I'm happy.

    Also, I was happy at the top of my bulk, but lost more fat for speed.
  • Springfield1970
    Springfield1970 Posts: 1,945 Member
    Yeah, I know it's a small surplus, but I am okay with going really slow. Like I said, I'm just paranoid about belly fat because that seems to be the first place I gain weight. Your guys' advice to just see how it works for a while and then make changes accordingly seems to make sense.

    You're going to get a little belly. It's unavoidable, but it's so worth it, when you melt off that post bulk fat you will reveal and much more strong and sexy curvy look. It will take years off you!
  • TrainSweatEatSleep
    TrainSweatEatSleep Posts: 56 Member
    half a pound a week for lean muscle gains
  • cwoyto123
    cwoyto123 Posts: 308
    Yep
  • jackielou867
    jackielou867 Posts: 422 Member
    Just about starting the same. Im not very good at the bulk/ cut thing. Im too inconsistent, abandoned a bulk twice. First time I could not persuade myself to eat more, second time because I felt way too fat way too fast. Tried to cut at Christmas lol big mistake. Now I am just lifting heavy at maintenance for a while. Testing my figures. If I stay the same I will try 100 calories more a day. I was 60kg at goal. Currently at 64/65 but some of that was holiday gain. Im going to stick with it this time untill I have gained a couple of kilos and see how I feel about that. I know this is the painfully slow way to go, but hey I was overweight for 20 years, Im in no rush :-)
  • MrGonzo05
    MrGonzo05 Posts: 1,120 Member
    If you're going to bulk, consider investing in a power rack, barbell, plates, and a bench, or join a gym. You're going to find the dumbbells limiting.
  • metacognition
    metacognition Posts: 626 Member
    I lifted at what MFP suggested as maintenance and ended up losing a few inches of belly, back, and arm fat along with slow gains in strength (barbell hip thrust went from 130 to 180, pull ups went from 0-1 to 4, squats stayed almost the same and dead lifts went up from 70 to a measly 100 pounds in the span of two to three months).

    For a woman I had good results at maintenance with no known fat gain. Maybe it's newbie gains or I miscounted calories, but I don't think you need to eat at excess to put on muscle if you're just starting out - though it probably makes the process a lot easier.
  • Springfield1970
    Springfield1970 Posts: 1,945 Member
    I lifted at what MFP suggested as maintenance and ended up losing a few inches of belly, back, and arm fat along with slow gains in strength (barbell hip thrust went from 130 to 180, pull ups went from 0-1 to 4, squats stayed almost the same and dead lifts went up from 70 to a measly 100 pounds in the span of two to three months).

    For a woman I had good results at maintenance with no known fat gain. Maybe it's newbie gains or I miscounted calories, but I don't think you need to eat at excess to put on muscle if you're just starting out - though it probably makes the process a lot easier.

    You can gain strength without gaining muscle. You can lose fat and the muscles look more defined.
    You cannot lose inches and gain muscle simultaneously.
    Building muscle requires excess calories.

    You just got stronger, and leaner, which is great, but OP wants to bulk.
  • MildredBarhopper
    MildredBarhopper Posts: 99 Member
    Actually, I would be okay with just getting leaner. Again, I'm not really educated on this so I thought the only way to look more lean was to gain more muscle, haha. These were all very helpful tips, thanks everyone. I think I may actually stay at maintenance for a while to see how it goes, but if I feel I'm not seeing the changes I want, I will do a bulk. Since a bit of belly fat seems inevitable, I may as well wait until the winter to bulk anyway when I will be more covered up :)
  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
    Actually, I would be okay with just getting leaner. Again, I'm not really educated on this so I thought the only way to look more lean was to gain more muscle, haha. These were all very helpful tips, thanks everyone. I think I may actually stay at maintenance for a while to see how it goes, but if I feel I'm not seeing the changes I want, I will do a bulk. Since a bit of belly fat seems inevitable, I may as well wait until the winter to bulk anyway when I will be more covered up :)

    Yeah you can recomp if you don't mind slow progress. Bulking over winter is a good idea though!
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    well- looking leaner and more defined is losing weight- specifically losing body fat.

    One can look small- and lean- and not look defined or in any shape muscular (there is a vast range of what muscular looks like- so don't jump to the vascular Ms Olympia mental image when I say 'muscular')

    And that's exactly why we recommend weight training for people losing weight.
    1.) you're optimizing fat loss- meaning the weight you are losing is more fat rather than muscle and fat.
    2.) when you get to you're target weight goal- you don't just look like a smaller version of yourself- you look like a "toned"

    So- you could always continue to lean out and cut while starting a more aggressive lifting program. That might get you what you want.

    Or you could maintain and do more lifting and see what happens.

    Or go ahead and go for the bulk!!!! It can be a very satisfying and very educational experience for you- requires a lot of confidence and it's a great thing to do for yourself.
  • W31RD0
    W31RD0 Posts: 173 Member
    So, from what I have read, it seems like the consensus is is that it's impossible to avoid any fat, but can you minimize the amount by doing a slow bulk? I'm talking maybe only a 100 to 150 cal surplus per day. Or, would I see any progress lifting at maintenance calories? I know I wouldn't really gain at maintenance, but would I see more changes in my body, albeit slowly over time?

    It is possible to slowly gain at that surplus but I feel like it might be overly restrictive. Also remember that as you gain muscle, you have more cells in your body that need food. Your maintenance requirements will increase with training and time. I would suggest closer to 150 to 200 surplus and adjust only if you start to see a little too much fat accumulating. Also remember that since you are toeing close to the line you won't have to cut so much as go back to your previous intake (your maintenance currently)
    I hope I don't sound like an idiot, haha. I have been pretty happy with my progress this past year, especially since I have done it all at home, and if I stayed the way I look now, I would honestly be content, but nothing wrong for aiming even higher :)

    Not at all, these are pretty reasonable questions when you are trying to really zero in on exactly how much you need. Even if you only stayed and maintenance and exercised, you would begin to notice a difference in your muscle toning and strength. But without that increase your body will eventually hit a limit because it needs more fuel. You will end up feeling more tired, getting progressively sorer, and you will need more time to recover after workouts. Best of luck to you.
  • jolarocknrolla
    jolarocknrolla Posts: 236 Member
    I have 3 more weeks of cutting left (self-imposed timeline, seriously I'm just sick as hell of keeping my carbs this low) and I'm going to do about 100 cals over maintenance (I'm below maintenance now) and add in more rice and whole-wheat pasta into my diet to push the macros and see how my body reacts ... I'm hoping that I can make some strength gains and maybe improve my running time. I'm not where I want to be in terms of bodyfat % but for now this is good.

    Personally I think making slow and small changes like this is a good idea, if your body and your health are a long-term project and you aren't desperate for short-term results it makes sense.

    Maybe it's crazy but I have a cutting/maintenance/bulking schedule drawn up for the rest of the calendar year ... based around how I tend to eat anyway (the time between Thanksgiving and Christmas is bulking time since there is NO WAY I could cut or maintain with the way my family cooks unless I had a really amazing reason to do that).

    So if it's your priority to not gain belly fat ... go very slow on your bulk. See what happens. Evaluate as you go. Everybody has different goals and priorities, your plan is fine given what you want to prioritize.
  • losingforgood120
    losingforgood120 Posts: 94
    bump for later
  • LastMinuteMama
    LastMinuteMama Posts: 590 Member
    bump for later
  • Butrovich
    Butrovich Posts: 410 Member
    Yeah, I know it's a small surplus, but I am okay with going really slow. Like I said, I'm just paranoid about belly fat because that seems to be the first place I gain weight. Your guys' advice to just see how it works for a while and then make changes accordingly seems to make sense.

    I am almost done with Body Beast (Beachbody) and the first nine weeks suggested I eat 3200 calories based on my size and starting weight. I gained 1-lbs per week, but my body fat percentage hovered around the same point. Now I am in the final stage and my calories are down to 2200. Still lifting weights, but adding more cardio. If all goes according to the plan, my weight should drop as well as my body fat, but the muscle mass should stay close to what it is now.

    This sounds very close to the same thing sculli123 advised also.
  • Rogiefreida
    Rogiefreida Posts: 567 Member
    I started a slow cautious bulk in June and I've been pretty satisfied with the results so far. I'm currently about 200 calories over maintenance. I started really cautious and only went about 100 over and found I wasn't gaining anything (actually lost a pound over the course of a month), so I've been slowly upping and now I'm finally starting to see the scale go up slightly.

    Beyond the scale, I feel amazing. I have so much more energy from the extra food and my lifts keep going up which is exciting. The hardest part is the mental aspect, some days I feel like a fluffy marshmallow, and other days I feel leaner than I did when I was eating at a deficit. I haven't noticed too much in the way of fat gains yet, all of my clothes still fit good so I'm content with that.

    Give it a try! I think the positives far outweigh the negatives if you can get a handle on the mental game of eating to gain.
  • linda4
    linda4 Posts: 7 Member
    Oh my goodness, this is so interesting. I wonder if I could tag on and ask your advice. I'm a 5' 0", 120 lb woman looking to finally get in shape...possibly for an upcoming wedding 9/20. What do you recommend I do? I've tried 1200 calories but I only lost .25 lbs a week and that is so easy to put back on. How many calories do you recommend? Exercize routine?
  • fabnine
    fabnine Posts: 379 Member
    for later
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
    Oh my goodness, this is so interesting. I wonder if I could tag on and ask your advice. I'm a 5' 0", 120 lb woman looking to finally get in shape...possibly for an upcoming wedding 9/20. What do you recommend I do? I've tried 1200 calories but I only lost .25 lbs a week and that is so easy to put back on. How many calories do you recommend? Exercize routine?

    when did you start this diet??

    1200 might be just right for you- and a 1/4 pound a week isn't BAD. it's fine- it's normal to move slowly.

    I would definitely consider starting strength, strong lifts, new rules for lifting or strong curves.

    If the gym isn't your thing, try you are your own gym, convict conditioning, strength unbound or nerdfitness.com on some guidance for body weight workouts.
  • sculli123
    sculli123 Posts: 1,221 Member
    JoRocka always on the money with her recommendations.
  • Ryderod
    Ryderod Posts: 103 Member
    Slow bulk yes that's my plan this fall / winter. I hit my summer goal last week. So now I am reverse dieting and adding 100 calories per day each week until I get to my maintenance (i.e my cut was 2000 calories, last week was 2100 calories, this week is 2200 calories....my maint is 2700 calories). So it will take me 7 weeks to get to my maintanance. I may lose a little more weight during this time but not too concerned.

    Once I get to maint I might stick with it for a short while but by mid October I will start my lean bulk. I am going to take it very slow again and stick to my adding 100 calories / day each week thing until I'm about at about 3200 - 3300 calories.

    But once I get to that level I will again be checking the scale closely to make sure I don't gain too much too fast. The heaviest I plan to get this year is about 212 lbs which for me isn't that heavy (usually bulk to 220+ but I'm not going to do that anymore).

    I plan to start cutting again late January / early February and my goal for next year is going to be 190 lbs with the same amount of muscle mass I have at 195 lbs now. So I'll look like my AVI but even more lean. I'm planning to compete in a physique competition next summer.

    Having just kept on dropping my target weight, I am now well under my initial goal, time to move into maintenance and then to carefully increase lean muscle mass.
    This post makes perfect sense and has helped!
  • alpinehealth
    alpinehealth Posts: 85 Member
    All the information here has been very useful for anyone especially me, who wants to maintain/ build muscle mass while loosing fat. Thank you to all contibutors. I am very new to cutting off fat so don't really have advise to give others other than to explain what I am doing.
    I was skinny fatish (if that's a word) having gone from 85 kgs at 74 kgs with nothing more than my version of low carb eating while strength training, squats, deadlift and pull-ups only. I was told I was too skinny so I started serious weight lifting for about the last 18 months and I went to 90 kgs but don't really look fat, so I am guessing that a lot of my 16 kgs of gainzzzzzzzzz is muscle.

    I am about 18% body fat and am trying to get down to 12-13%. MFP tells me my maintenance is 2700 calories and has suggested that I go with 2160 calories. After 2 weeks at a 500 cal deficit I have not lost once bit of strength I have even added a couple of reps to once previous PR's. I have so far dropped 2ish kgs and am starting to see good definition in my shoulders, bi's and tri's. hell can even see my top 2 abs! I certainly do not want to loose any of my very hard earned muscle but at the same time want to ditch the belly fat.

    I guess my question to those seasoned in bulk/cuts is it possible for me to build muscle (lean bulk) while on a 500 cal deficit or am I pushing poo uphill.
  • jolarocknrolla
    jolarocknrolla Posts: 236 Member
    .

    I guess my question to those seasoned in bulk/cuts is it possible for me to build muscle (lean bulk) while on a 500 cal deficit or am I pushing poo uphill.

    you can build a little if you are very new to lifting, but in general no. you can however lose enough fat so that your muscles look more defined ... you just won't be bigger.

    "bulk" means eating over maintenance, so you can't eat under maintenance and "bulk" you know?
  • linda4
    linda4 Posts: 7 Member
    Thanks for the response. I started in earnest five weeks ago. I'll go back to 1200 calories. I was trying to stay around 1060 calories (since my goal weight is 106) during the week and around 1200-1500 on the weekend. I tend to lose during the week and gain it back on the weekend. The key must be consistency. Thanks again.

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