Calories - cooked vs raw

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  • BradWI
    BradWI Posts: 20 Member
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    LOL at everyone simply dismissing what Teyden is saying as nonsense.

    If you google "does cooked food have more calories" you'll find a bunch of info on the subject that supports what he/she is saying.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
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    A baked potato has more calories per gram than a raw potato because cooking it evaporates a considerable amount of water out of the potato.
  • teyden
    teyden Posts: 6 Member
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    My intention was to explain concepts in the processes of caloric intake in biological systems - and not specifically how it is done experimentally to yield the caloric values you would see on nutritional labels. To restate, I meant to emphasize that differences in mass of a single food item (let's say a piece of meat) due to compression of cooked meat (for the same piece of meat) has little to no affect on the energy consumption from "calories" from food in *BIOLOGICAL* systems. There are other processes to explain this (related to the breakdown of the components that make up the food). Though not addressing any calorie intake values on nutritional labels, I realize my response was an over-complicated answer to a simple question. However, if interested in what goes on in your body (at the biochemical level) when you consume food claiming X amount of calories, then this is an area that would be valuable to understand (or to ponder about, since research in the area is somewhat lacking). This actually poses questions to a different subject matter - the value of calorie estimates on *nutrition labels* based off of bomb calorimetry experiments (a simplified process to explaining physiological food consumption) and how accurately they represent biological systems in digestion and fuel usage (of food).

    Here is a more thorough investigation of nutrition on "calories" in cooked vs. raw foods:
    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/08/27/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/

    So far, most of the physiological studies are done via experiments with mice, which is questionable to how well the data can extrapolate to humans. Based on protein interactions alone, and the enzymatic reactions involved in our digestive systems (those involved breaking down the components of our food; lipids, polysaccharides, proteins, and more), we can *hope* at this point that the genome similarities of mice to humans (99% homology) will translate accurately. Lol - but that is the role of the scientific research community to discover *fingers crossed*

    For now, our knowledge of enzyme reactions in humans (which is VERY CONSERVED through generations - meaning the enzymes and their functions + structures are very consistent from person to person unless there's a mutation) and how they break down food components is enough for scholars to make strong inferences to what likely happens at the molecular level!
  • teyden
    teyden Posts: 6 Member
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    Sorry - another note.

    Report calorie estimates are NOT a true representative of biological usage. However, they are in fact based on biological usage (what was the purpose of estimating energy intake from food in the first place, then?). The usage of the bomb calorimeter (plus some further experimental steps) is an over-simplified attempt to MIMIC biological systems in order to attain caloric measurement values that serve as useful information about food energy availability to human BODIES.

    Article --> http://www.fishersci.com/ecomm/servlet/cmstatic?href=Scientific/researchAnalytical/ProductsServices/Food_Diagnostics/food_beverage_newsletter_bombcal.jsp&store=Scientific&storeId=10652

    The measurement simply does not stop at the process of burning organic content in a vessel. Lol.
  • teyden
    teyden Posts: 6 Member
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    Mass has nothing to do with calorie estimates, nor does water. In order to understand how calories are measured in food, you must understand how the calories are translated to energy requirements and usage by your cells how it relates to food breakdown in your body (metabolism). It would be good to have some understanding of the thermodynamics of metabolic processes in your system, but that could be simplified also :) - so that at least one could understand what it means when they consume calories in food and the effects of cooking.

    When food is cooked, such as meat, the single units of amino acids in proteins unfold such that their side chains become more easily available for attack by our digestive enzymes, yielding more energy for your body (hence, higher calories). The structural components in raw foods require further steps in the metabolic pathway of your cells (and sometimes more, and different enzymes from different pathways to catalyze the reaction of breaking down the food --> uses even more energy; burning calories), and thus require a greater amount of energy FROM your body to do so (lowers the net calories that you will receive from that food - a good thing if you're trying to lose weight). Thus, the process of breaking down whole foods requires more complex pathways (think of the difference in breaking down simple vs. complex sugars). More complex = better. Another example would the processes involved when you eat celery - which are known to provide "negative calories". The energy that is used by your body to breakdown the components of celery is greater than the calories that is provided by celery itself. Hence, you get a net calorie that is negative (you burned more calories eating celery than you consumed calories).

    This is why highly processed foods are higher in calories. When referring to "processed" foods, it means that the compound units of the food, in its native form (whole steak) has been broken down numerous times in various ways (heat, chemical processing for extending meat preservation, physical breakdown such as grounding or blending, etc.). The result, for instance, will be a piece of ham, or a hotdog. These processed foods provide more energy for your body as their individual chemical units have been broken down so much that when you consume the food, your body's digestive enzymes are capable of breaking down the food by converting it to energy, VERY quickly. The steak, in contrast, will be a much longer process as it will involve more pathways and a higher concentration of the digestive enzymes to break it down to single units for conversion to energy - resulting in lower net calories that you will receive from that food because your body used up energy in process. The breakdown of food QUICKLY is not a good thing if your body does not eventually USE (via exercise, or whatever) up any calories you consumed in excess. Candy, for instance, the sugar molecules that you consumed in excess will eventually be converted to triglycerides (your fat storage molecules) to store in your adipose tissue (your fat cells) for long-term energy storage.

    Please understand that the measure of calories is not related to mass/weight of food. Because even then, increases/decreases in mass due to water has no effect on energy in your body; it would otherwise make you feel dehydrated vs. hydrated. It might only have an affect on energy in that it affects the solubility and equilibrium of essential minerals in and out of your cells - which, have nothing to do with energy. Calories in food is a measure of energy that can be consumed by your body.


    If you want more information, here is a good start:
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/12/08/why-calorie-counts-are-wrong-cooked-food-provides-a-lot-more-energy/#.U9WDWqg4f-k

    There are studies that focus on these topics. Cheers.

    Yeah. No.

    Reported calories in foods are not determined based on biological usage. They are determined by being burned in a calorimeter and are reported as a function of mass (cals per g, for example), which is why mass matters and explains all of the differences in reporting in cooked vs raw except where something happens like fat rendering out of meat.

    Quick made up examples:

    100g potato, raw -> 50g potato, baked (50g water lost to steam, total calories the same, calories per g doubled)
    100g pasta, raw -> 200g pasta, cooked (100g water absorbed, total calories the same, calories per g halved)



    Sorry - another note.

    Reported calorie estimates are NOT a *representative* of biological usage. Not a true one, at least. There is an error rate that varies of up to about 20% (sources, sources, sources)! However, they are in fact BASED on biological usage (what was the purpose of estimating energy intake from food in the first place, then?). The usage of the bomb calorimeter (plus some further experimental steps) is an over-simplified attempt to MIMIC biological systems in order to attain caloric measurement values that serve as useful information about food energy availability to human BODIES.

    Article --> http://www.fishersci.com/ecomm/servlet/cmstatic?href=Scientific/researchAnalytical/ProductsServices/Food_Diagnostics/food_beverage_newsletter_bombcal.jsp&store=Scientific&storeId=10652

    The measurement simply does not stop at the process of burning organic content in a vessel. Lol.
  • kaybeau
    kaybeau Posts: 198 Member
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    oooh I love a bit of theory versus the real world !
  • teyden
    teyden Posts: 6 Member
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    LOL at everyone simply dismissing what Teyden is saying as nonsense.

    If you google "does cooked food have more calories" you'll find a bunch of info on the subject that supports what he/she is saying.

    Lol - Thanks!

    And furthermore - it's not so much about being "right" or "wrong" about some measurement basis for food, it's about understanding what's actually happening in our bodies. That is my focus. I take it everyone else on www.myfitnesspal.com should find that info relevant and informative (if not, enough to make you speculate).
  • stealthq
    stealthq Posts: 4,298 Member
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    Mass has nothing to do with calorie estimates, nor does water. In order to understand how calories are measured in food, you must understand how the calories are translated to energy requirements and usage by your cells how it relates to food breakdown in your body (metabolism). It would be good to have some understanding of the thermodynamics of metabolic processes in your system, but that could be simplified also :) - so that at least one could understand what it means when they consume calories in food and the effects of cooking.

    When food is cooked, such as meat, the single units of amino acids in proteins unfold such that their side chains become more easily available for attack by our digestive enzymes, yielding more energy for your body (hence, higher calories). The structural components in raw foods require further steps in the metabolic pathway of your cells (and sometimes more, and different enzymes from different pathways to catalyze the reaction of breaking down the food --> uses even more energy; burning calories), and thus require a greater amount of energy FROM your body to do so (lowers the net calories that you will receive from that food - a good thing if you're trying to lose weight). Thus, the process of breaking down whole foods requires more complex pathways (think of the difference in breaking down simple vs. complex sugars). More complex = better. Another example would the processes involved when you eat celery - which are known to provide "negative calories". The energy that is used by your body to breakdown the components of celery is greater than the calories that is provided by celery itself. Hence, you get a net calorie that is negative (you burned more calories eating celery than you consumed calories).

    This is why highly processed foods are higher in calories. When referring to "processed" foods, it means that the compound units of the food, in its native form (whole steak) has been broken down numerous times in various ways (heat, chemical processing for extending meat preservation, physical breakdown such as grounding or blending, etc.). The result, for instance, will be a piece of ham, or a hotdog. These processed foods provide more energy for your body as their individual chemical units have been broken down so much that when you consume the food, your body's digestive enzymes are capable of breaking down the food by converting it to energy, VERY quickly. The steak, in contrast, will be a much longer process as it will involve more pathways and a higher concentration of the digestive enzymes to break it down to single units for conversion to energy - resulting in lower net calories that you will receive from that food because your body used up energy in process. The breakdown of food QUICKLY is not a good thing if your body does not eventually USE (via exercise, or whatever) up any calories you consumed in excess. Candy, for instance, the sugar molecules that you consumed in excess will eventually be converted to triglycerides (your fat storage molecules) to store in your adipose tissue (your fat cells) for long-term energy storage.

    Please understand that the measure of calories is not related to mass/weight of food. Because even then, increases/decreases in mass due to water has no effect on energy in your body; it would otherwise make you feel dehydrated vs. hydrated. It might only have an affect on energy in that it affects the solubility and equilibrium of essential minerals in and out of your cells - which, have nothing to do with energy. Calories in food is a measure of energy that can be consumed by your body.


    If you want more information, here is a good start:
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2011/12/08/why-calorie-counts-are-wrong-cooked-food-provides-a-lot-more-energy/#.U9WDWqg4f-k

    There are studies that focus on these topics. Cheers.

    Yeah. No.

    Reported calories in foods are not determined based on biological usage. They are determined by being burned in a calorimeter and are reported as a function of mass (cals per g, for example), which is why mass matters and explains all of the differences in reporting in cooked vs raw except where something happens like fat rendering out of meat.

    Quick made up examples:

    100g potato, raw -> 50g potato, baked (50g water lost to steam, total calories the same, calories per g doubled)
    100g pasta, raw -> 200g pasta, cooked (100g water absorbed, total calories the same, calories per g halved)



    Sorry - another note.

    Reported calorie estimates are NOT a *representative* of biological usage. Not a true one, at least. There is an error rate that varies of up to about 20% (sources, sources, sources)! However, they are in fact BASED on biological usage (what was the purpose of estimating energy intake from food in the first place, then?). The usage of the bomb calorimeter (plus some further experimental steps) is an over-simplified attempt to MIMIC biological systems in order to attain caloric measurement values that serve as useful information about food energy availability to human BODIES.

    Article --> http://www.fishersci.com/ecomm/servlet/cmstatic?href=Scientific/researchAnalytical/ProductsServices/Food_Diagnostics/food_beverage_newsletter_bombcal.jsp&store=Scientific&storeId=10652

    The measurement simply does not stop at the process of burning organic content in a vessel. Lol.

    I never said it did stop there. But it is certainly not taking into account much of the biological processes. If it were, we'd not have labels that use 4 cals per g protein, 4 cals per g carb, 9 cals per g fat, as if all proteins, carbs, and fats produce the same biological energy per gram regardless of molecular configuration.

    Besides, this doesn't really address the original point - which is why cooked vs. raw calories are different for the same total ingredient. Answer is the same. By and large, it is due to water loss or gain changing the mass of the product while total calories remain the same. The exception is when nutrients are lost or gained in the process such as when fat renders out of cooking meat, or when foods absorb oil during frying, etc.