Lean Body Mass charts?

Options
There are plenty of height and weight charts out there, but those charts don't isolate out fat from your Lean Body Mass. I've searched a bunch on Google, but to no avail. Does anyone know of a chart for Lean Body Mass vs Height for women? (This is absolutely not related to BMI at all.) Obviously there's going to be a bell curve of LBM for each height, and probably a separate chart for different age ranges in the general population, but I can't seem to find the data anywhere.

I'm 5'6", 34 years old, very strong, I have very broad shoulders, and based on my Body Fat % measurement I have a Lean Body Mass somewhere between 130-140 pound. I'd like to find out what percentile that is compared to other women my height and age.

Replies

  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
    Options
    http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v26/n7/fig_tab/0802037t2.html might help, has a percentile breakdown of FFMI with age & gender.

    FFMI is kg FFM per height in metres ^2 (like BMI)

    So your 135 lb 5'6" is 21.8 which is a bit off the chart !

    Mine is 18.7, under P50.

    Measurements were by electrical measurements referenced back to DEXA scans http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v26/n7/full/0802037a.html
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
    Options
    130-140 LBM sounds really high. Is that from a body fat % estimate from a scale? Those are very inaccurate, usually.

    https://www.healthstatus.com/perl/calculator.cgi

    That suggests your ideal LBM would be around 102 lbs., though that seems to be based on an 'ideal weight' toward the low end of 'normal' BMI. I've never used that calculator, I don't really now how useful it is, but just for another input.
  • Shushanna01
    Shushanna01 Posts: 8 Member
    Options
    So I used two methods to determine my body fat %. One was to compare myself visually to photos of women in a variety of body fat %. Compared to those I looked about 29%. There's definition in my abs and limbs, but not super ripped. And then I used an electrical resistance meter which said I had 33% body fat. My current weight is 193 lbs, and my abs are rock solid, my quads and hamstrings are very muscular, and I can do 500 pound leg presses. I've always been unusually strong, even as a child. There is definitely a lot of muscle going on.

    But I agree that a lean body mass of 130-140 for a woman is unusually high. On the other hand there are unusually tall women out there too. Unusual doesn't mean impossible.
  • Shushanna01
    Shushanna01 Posts: 8 Member
    Options
    The problem with algorithms is that they're not effective for outliers. That's like telling a 6' tall woman that she must really be 5'4" because most other women are 5'4". I don't think most women who weigh 193 have a 32 inch waist and can pick up and carry a 250 lb man.

    This is why I need actual data and charts, and not merely formulas.

    The thing is this stuff has to exist. The body fat % measuring market is huge. These companies must have done research on actual data to determine the effectiveness of their products. Likewise, all those body composition formulas have to be based on real data and not just other formulas., or else they'd be completely useless. The data must exist somewhere.
  • Shushanna01
    Shushanna01 Posts: 8 Member
    Options
    The fat free mass chart referenced above is almost what I'm looking for, only there is no mathematical or scientific basis for squaring the height. That takes perfectly good data and makes it useless for my purposes. I need to know numbers based on people's actual heights. Like for all 5'6" women, what is the range and distribution of lean body mass values.
  • ana3067
    ana3067 Posts: 5,623 Member
    Options
    130-140 LBM sounds really high. Is that from a body fat % estimate from a scale? Those are very inaccurate, usually.

    https://www.healthstatus.com/perl/calculator.cgi

    That suggests your ideal LBM would be around 102 lbs., though that seems to be based on an 'ideal weight' toward the low end of 'normal' BMI. I've never used that calculator, I don't really now how useful it is, but just for another input.

    A LBM of 130-140lbs is just fine, especially if body fat % is low(er). I have an estimate LBM of 130 based on skinfold measurements, with a BF% of about 26%. Goal is 16-18%BF, at 18% I'd be ~160.

    higher LBM relative to one's size indicates good bone and muscle.. heft, for lack of a better word. Development? idk.If I can increase my LBM to 140 I'd actually be thrilled.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    Options
    Unusual doesn't mean impossible.

    No. But it does mean unlikely.

    Both of the methods you used to determine BF % are extremely unreliable.
  • DenDweller
    DenDweller Posts: 1,438 Member
    Options
    The thing is this stuff has to exist. The body fat % measuring market is huge. These companies must have done research on actual data to determine the effectiveness of their products. Likewise, all those body composition formulas have to be based on real data and not just other formulas., or else they'd be completely useless. The data must exist somewhere.

    Are these devices/methods regulated? Call me cynical, but if they're not regulated you're expecting rational, fact-based decision making where marketing BS might prevail.
  • Shushanna01
    Shushanna01 Posts: 8 Member
    Options
    I have definitely looked into getting a "bod pod" body composition analysis done, which is supposed to be more accurate than the electrical resistance machines, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if my body fat % ends up lower than what the resistance machine indicated and my lean body mass is closer to 140 than 130. I've got a lot of muscle and a very large frame.

    So no, I'm not looking for random people from the internet giving me their unqualified opinions about my body composition based on amateur conjecture and nothing else, thanks just the same. I'm looking specifically for hard cold data from a large scientific population study for Lean Body Mass vs height for women. Plain and simple. If you don't have a link or a source to that info, you are posting on the wrong thread.
  • ana3067
    ana3067 Posts: 5,623 Member
    Options
    I have definitely looked into getting a "bod pod" body composition analysis done, which is supposed to be more accurate than the electrical resistance machines, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if my body fat % ends up lower than what the resistance machine indicated and my lean body mass is closer to 140 than 130. I've got a lot of muscle and a very large frame.

    So no, I'm not looking for random people from the internet giving me their unqualified opinions about my body composition based on amateur conjecture and nothing else, thanks just the same. I'm looking specifically for hard cold data from a large scientific population study for Lean Body Mass vs height for women. Plain and simple. If you don't have a link or a source to that info, you are posting on the wrong thread.

    Two women of average height could weight the same and have completely different LBM. Both are 5'4, weigh 155lbs. First woman has a BF% of 19%, putting her at 126lbs LBM. Other woman has BF% of 35%, putting her at 101lbs LBM.

    Lean body mass is more than just muscle, which is why a woman can still have a fairly high LBM despite not looking huge. Water, muscle, bone, anything that isn't fat in the body. So.. I really odn't think there is a study or charts for this. I really don't understand the need or why you are looking for this. Skinfold testing is often within a few % of accuracy anyways, and is a good at-home way to gauge your progress.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
    Options
    The fat free mass chart referenced above is almost what I'm looking for, only there is no mathematical or scientific basis for squaring the height.

    Their idea was to make it match the BMI data.

    Snippets I have found :-

    "In this case ~104 pounds would be the average lean body mass for a women aged 36 who is 5’6″ tall. - See more at: http://bradpilon.com/weight-loss/womens-body-ideal-measurements/#sthash.WjX1RnRr.dpuf"

    Victoria Pendleton - Olympic track cyclist - weight 132 lbs 5'-5", Anna Meares same height weight 159 lbs. The former clearly has a lot less lean body mass than your number, the latter is likely to be less too. Both have a lot of leg muscle.

    From a skinfold measurement device survey :-
    Ideal-Body-Fat-Percentage-Chart3.jpg

    From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076634/
    nihms257036f1a.jpg

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/77/6/1368/T2.expansion.html puts you about 5 sds from the mean

    None are exactly what you're looking for, but all say you're an outlier or have a measurement problem. Finding stats for particular athletes of your height / build would be another thing to try. Enjoy.
  • Shushanna01
    Shushanna01 Posts: 8 Member
    Options
    I really don't understand the need or why you are looking for this.

    If you're genuinely confused about this, I'll explain. And considering how important Lean Body Mass (LBM) is, I think it's worth the time. When you get right down to it, LBM is the most important thing to understand about your body. The rest is secondary.

    Muscle mass, organs, frame size, bone density, cartilage, connective tissues, blood, lymph (the clear fluid that fills blisters, of which you have as much as you do blood), skin, teeth, hair - that's what makes up your LBM. Your LBM can change to an extent with muscle building or atrophy, but a large part of it is based on your genetics. The size and shape of your skeleton was determined by your DNA and it will be what it will be no matter what you do.

    We already know that a good target Body Fat Percentage for a woman is anywhere from 22%-25%. The only variable is your LBM, and it directly determines what your Ideal Weight is. This is why understanding what your LBM is is so important.

    It is fundamental!

    I'm asking help in finding data that lists the statistical distribution of LBM values for women by height. And you’re confused as to why. The reason is because the height and weight charts that are available don’t isolate LBM from Body Fat, and don’t show the normal range of LBM for each height. They aren't useful.

    The erroneous assumption that a lot of basic height and weight charts have is that everyone has a relatively low LBM. And that's not even remotely true. In acknowledgement of that fallacy, for a long time doctors charts had ranges of weights for vaguely defined small, medium and large frame sizes. They measure things like wrist circumference, which though is a good try, is obviously flawed - because if "frame size" is a stand in for estimating LBM, and LBM is affected by muscle mass, then why are you measuring in a place that does not have any muscle? My wrist size won't change if I gain or lose 50 lbs of muscle. The reason they measure there is that it’s easy and noninvasive. But that doesn’t mean it’s accurate.

    The same thing is true for BMI – taking people’s weight and dividing it by the square of their height is easy, noninvasive, and inexpensive. The problem is gives you no useful information at all. It’s completely worthless. Musclebound 10% body fat athletes are categorized as “obese” and 60% body fat seniors are categorized as “normal”. And there’s also no reason at all to square the height – there’s no basis in the science or the math, and it just makes taller people have far higher BMIs than their equally fit shorter peers. The mathemetician who came up with it insisted it should never be used to evaluate an individual and it bares no implication on body fat or health. BMI has been debunked time and time again.

    The fact is, I don't need to see another total weight vs height chart or BMI chart that tells me I need to weigh 145 lbs, which for me would be 3-7% body fat and dangerously thin. What I need to see is a chart that shows the normal distribution of Lean Body Mass values for women of specific heights, so that I can determine where I lie in the percentile and better understand my body in the context of the general population. I know that my LBM is somewhere between 130 and 140 lbs at 5’6” tall. What I want to know is – where is that in the spectrum?

    How does knowing that help me? It affects the amount of protein I’d need compared to standard recommended diet. It affects my absorption of certain medications, the implications of which can be very serious. And it gives my doctors a better understanding of how I may compare to clinical studies, including the effectiveness of anesthesia during an operation (I was once able to remain conscious and stand up of my own volition once a surgery was completed, because the anesthesia dosage was not effective enough).

    When you think about it and all of the implications, what could possibly be more important?
  • Camo_xxx
    Camo_xxx Posts: 1,082 Member
    Options
    I get what you are after and have used my google foo to try and find it but have come up empty handed.

    But now you have my curiosity so I hope you will post a link if you find the chart you are looking for.

    I'll keep looking in the mean time.

    Edit****
    I do think that at the end of the day you may be best served by getting your bmi tested so you will know your own LBM
  • CLM1227
    CLM1227 Posts: 61 Member
    Options
    I understand what you are saying.

    Unfortunately, other than extrapolating the LBM from BMI weight charts and "Healthy" BF% to determine a "healthy" range, I don't know what to say.

    I hate BMI charts. They over-simplify and oftentimes, especially for people who hit the gym aiming for weight loss goals, provide an unrealistic body-weight goal.

    If my BMI was normal at 130 lbs and 5'6", and I was 130lbs at 13 years old with no boobs, protruding hip bones, and countable ribs, then there's no way I'm going to EVER reach normal at age 30, 2 kids later, when I've spent 5-7 hours/week lifting weights and doing cardio to get to whatever goal I'm aiming for.

    Its seriously unrealistic.

    I also don't see anything wrong with 130lb of muscle mass on a girl =p At 230 lbs, my calculations gave me 42% body fat (which is totally realistic) which gives me just 130 lbs of muscle.

    If I'm aiming to lose fat and not muscle, and I'm eating to maintain that muscle mass, then who's to say I can't reach a 22% BF goal and still have 130 lbs of muscle? Now it is true, that weight loss will lose some muscle and your trying to minimize that as much as possible, and the heavier you are, the more muscle you are going to have to simply function.

    I wish I had an answer for you, OP. I have got nothing but a spreadsheet with some complex math equation that I picked up off the MS macro website YEARS ago. Its not even available anymore. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but it is awesome and as long as it gives me something to track, I'll use it. But it won't give you what you are looking for.
  • CLM1227
    CLM1227 Posts: 61 Member
    Options
    Ah - I'm using the US Navy method of determining BF%.

    It's probably decently accurate.
  • meridianova
    meridianova Posts: 438 Member
    Options
    this is fascniating. thank you for starting this discussion. i'm interested too, especially since i've had a long-standing beef with the entire BMI system.
    They measure things like wrist circumference, which though is a good try, is obviously flawed - because if "frame size" is a stand in for estimating LBM, and LBM is affected by muscle mass, then why are you measuring in a place that does not have any muscle? My wrist size won't change if I gain or lose 50 lbs of muscle. The reason they measure there is that it’s easy and noninvasive. But that doesn’t mean it’s accurate.

    i might be able to shed some light on this. the size of your frame will correlate to how much muscle mass you can expect to have (and i'm talking about without the help of steroids or anything ridiculous like that). that's going to directly correlate to how much you're likely to weigh. i'm like you... i have a ridiculously large frame and i carry a lot of muscle (even though i'm short). that alone is going to make me predisposed to weighing more than someone who is the same height but has a smaller frame that isn't holding as much muscle. i'd have to be down in the single digit bodyfat percentages to get down to 141lbs, yet that's the most i could weigh without being considered "overweight". but based on measurements of wrist, bicep, waist, hip, and thigh, i'm at about 30% bodyfat, which is well within "normal" range.

    so while i agree that frame size isn't a stand-in for LBM, it at least attempts to address the extensive ranges of "normal" weights for people of the same height, since it's unrealistic (and idiotic) to expect someone who's 5'2" with a large frame holding a lot of LBM and a healthy amount of body fat on top of that to weigh the same as someon with a small frame, the same percentage of body fat, but with little LBM.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    We already know that a good target Body Fat Percentage for a woman is anywhere from 22%-25%. The only variable is your LBM, and it directly determines what your Ideal Weight is. This is why understanding what your LBM is is so important.

    I agree about this (except there's no real "Ideal Weight" for anyone), but like the poster who asked the question, I'm not sure why this makes the average distribution of LBM for women of particular heights especially useful.

    Assuming that your LBM is between 130 and 140, this would mean that you should ideally weigh somewhere in the range of 167 (22% BF and 130 LB) to 187 (25% BF and 140).

    I'm not sure what the distribution gets you, even though I read your explanation.
    The same thing is true for BMI – taking people’s weight and dividing it by the square of their height is easy, noninvasive, and inexpensive. The problem is gives you no useful information at all. It’s completely worthless.

    It's overrated and flawed for certain body types, but not completely worthless for most. (It may not work for you, if your understanding of your LBM is accurate, but that's why body fat is more significant.) For most women it's FAR more likely that one is an overweight BF% while still a good BMI, vs. the opposite, based on the distributions I've seen (which unfortunately I can't find easily and wouldn't help you anyway).
    What I need to see is a chart that shows the normal distribution of Lean Body Mass values for women of specific heights, so that I can determine where I lie in the percentile and better understand my body in the context of the general population. I know that my LBM is somewhere between 130 and 140 lbs at 5’6” tall. What I want to know is – where is that in the spectrum?

    Again, why is this a better answer to the question than just doing the calculations above?
    How does knowing that help me? It affects the amount of protein I’d need compared to standard recommended diet. It affects my absorption of certain medications, the implications of which can be very serious. And it gives my doctors a better understanding of how I may compare to clinical studies, including the effectiveness of anesthesia during an operation (I was once able to remain conscious and stand up of my own volition once a surgery was completed, because the anesthesia dosage was not effective enough).

    Doesn't your LBM tell you all that? I'd just try to get the most accurate number for that, as you've indicated you want to.
  • newdaydawning79
    newdaydawning79 Posts: 1,503 Member
    Options
    In, just in case someone finds the info somewhere because I'm interested too!

    My roommate's mom has had the BF% scan done when she was under a medically supervised weight loss program. She was told at 5'6" tall the lowest she should ever try to be is 175, and she's medium framed. Using 25% body fat for that weight just for an example, she'd have 131.25 pounds of LBM. So I can see it from the OPs perspective easily!
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    Options
    So no, I'm not looking for random people from the internet giving me their unqualified opinions about my body composition based on amateur conjecture and nothing else, thanks just the same. I'm looking specifically for hard cold data from a large scientific population study for Lean Body Mass vs height for women. Plain and simple.

    Then go get yourself measured by a professional using professional grade, calibrated equipment.

    Anything less than that means you're just shopping for the answer you want to hear.

    Cheers.
  • Joannah700
    Joannah700 Posts: 2,665 Member
    Options
    In so I can come back and check this out for curiosity's sake.

    I've used my measurements and my % of body fat ranges from 26-31% while being in the normal BMI.

    I look down and see jiggly parts so I know that I can be healthier, but have no idea on what weight to aim for until I get accurate assessments. I'm planning on going to do the hydrostatic test so I can set up these macros everyone keeps going on and on about.