Nutrition help for elite athletes needed

blankiefinder
blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
I was hoping someone could help me try to figure out the macro nutrients etc that I should be feeding my 16 year old daughter and 18 year old son. They are national level swimmers. It's hard trying to make sure they are getting the protein etc that they need, and I am hoping someone can help me figure out how to calculate what they should be having.

Per week, per kid:

18 year old male: edited to add, 5'11.5, 140 lbs
3 hours weights
4.5 hours dry land (mainly running right now)
16 hours intense swimming

16 year old female: edited to add, 5 ft 6, 120 lbs
6 hours dry land (running, spin bikes, push ups, planks,etc)
16 hours intense swimming

I'm not sure if I should be calculating it by the week and averaging, or if they should be adjusting on a daily basis depending on single practice days, double days, or their one day off. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Replies

  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
    It's hard to calculate protein goals without knowing their weight. Basically they should shoot to consume a minimum of 0.82g of protein per lb of body weight. As for fat, it's recommended to consume a minimum of 0.4g of dietary fat per lb of body weight. Since they are elite athletes I'd recommend that the remainder of their calorie intake come mostly from carbohydrates.
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    It's hard to calculate protein goals without knowing their weight. Basically they should shoot to consume a minimum of 0.82g of protein per lb of body weight. As for fat, it's recommended to consume a minimum of 0.4g of dietary fat per lb of body weight. Since they are elite athletes I'd recommend that the remainder of their calorie intake come mostly from carbohydrates.

    Thanks, AJ! I've edited the post to add in their height and weight.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    You'll want to invest in consulting with a nutritionist trained in working with elites to work up a feeding schedule and plan.
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    You'll want to invest in consulting with a nutritionist trained in working with elites to work up a feeding schedule and plan.

    I actually did speak with the team nutritionist, and they were less than helpful. I may have to try a different one, but I also want to get both of them tracking their food through MFP so that they can take responsibility for reaching their macros on their own, and make better food decisions. After all, Mom can't be with them every moment ;)
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    If I were in that situation, I'd find a new nutritionist to work as their personal nutritionist on retainer.

    I'd not ask randoms.
  • Cherimoose
    Cherimoose Posts: 5,208 Member
    I'd hire a Registered Dietitian. Or read a textbook on sports nutrition (library, bookstore, etc).

    Who knows if we're qualified to give advice.
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
    I'd assume with that sort of training volume they are doing 2 a day training?

    Times like these, nutrient timing definitely matters.

    If they are serious about optimal performance, I'd be bulk cooking a lot of meals for both of them. Something with some protein and fat but majority carbs. Simple ones are rice, pasta, potato dishes with meat of choice and some sauce (for fats). Slow cooker works a treat.

    I don't think too many young ones would be willing to track all their foods? May be better to implement a meal plan. Include a free meal from time to time. With the amount of activity they are doing, the free meal could definitely be a less than "clean" option. As always, once your micro nutrient needs are met you don't get a bonus for more. Athletes may benefit from magnesium supplementation for recovery purposes. But overall a good variety of foods is important.
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    If I were in that situation, I'd find a new nutritionist to work as their personal nutritionist on retainer.

    I'd not ask randoms.

    I do understand your point, but from personal experience, the nutritionists we have dealt with in the past have literally just said to follow the Canada food guide (aka food pyramid). I won't take responses here as the gospel truth, but am hoping for a starting point to calculate the number of calories they are burning, etc.
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    I'd assume with that sort of training volume they are doing 2 a day training?

    Times like these, nutrient timing definitely matters.

    If they are serious about optimal performance, I'd be bulk cooking a lot of meals for both of them. Something with some protein and fat but majority carbs. Simple ones are rice, pasta, potato dishes with meat of choice and some sauce (for fats). Slow cooker works a treat.

    I don't think too many young ones would be willing to track all their foods? May be better to implement a meal plan. Include a free meal from time to time. With the amount of activity they are doing, the free meal could definitely be a less than "clean" option. As always, once your micro nutrient needs are met you don't get a bonus for more. Athletes may benefit from magnesium supplementation for recovery purposes. But overall a good variety of foods is important.

    Thanks, Chris!!
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
    If I were in that situation, I'd find a new nutritionist to work as their personal nutritionist on retainer.

    I'd not ask randoms.

    I do understand your point, but from personal experience, the nutritionists we have dealt with in the past have literally just said to follow the Canada food guide (aka food pyramid). I won't take responses here as the gospel truth, but am hoping for a starting point to calculate the number of calories they are burning, etc.

    Keep in mind there is a big difference between a "Nutritionist" and a "Registered Dietitian". Almost anybody can call themselves a Nutritionist, but to be a Registered Dietitian you have to be certified.
  • FoxyMcDeadlift
    FoxyMcDeadlift Posts: 771 Member
    Id buy the HRM to get a feel for their expenditure and add these values on top of their tdee using the highly active multiplier. Id make the base activity factor include the weights then add everything on top. That's the method I use when doing heavy amounts of cardio plus weights. Simple carbs right after training. I presume there are good hrms out there for triathletes that are water resistant? Monitor their weights for progress. Do they have set weight limits? Is the son trying to build mass or maintain his current physique?
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    Keep in mind there is a big difference between a "Nutritionist" and a "Registered Dietitian". Almost anybody can call themselves a Nutritionist, but to be a Registered Dietitian you have to be certified.

    I hadn't even thought of that, thanks!! Excellent point. I'm not sure if the team nutritionist is a registered dietician or not.
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    Id buy the HRM to get a feel for their expenditure and add these values on top of their tdee using the highly active multiplier. Id make the base activity factor include the weights then add everything on top. That's the method I use when doing heavy amounts of cardio plus weights. Simple carbs right after training. I presume there are good hrms out there for triathletes that are water resistant? Monitor their weights for progress. Do they have set weight limits? Is the son trying to build mass or maintain his current physique?

    Foxy, my son's university team coach has said that they are supposed to be taking a lot of extra protein, so he is definitely building mass. Both have minimal body fat, especially my son. I don't think he has any set weight limits.
  • lexlomax
    lexlomax Posts: 1
    I am a competitive swimmer from Australia (at a masters level) and I have found it very difficult to get trustworthy advice around nutrition requirements for swimming. I engaged a professional nutritionist also, however I found her advice to be way too generic to be of any benefit. I recently completed a course at Vanderbilt university on Nutrition and Fitness, and found this to be very helpful. I thought I might post some links that the academics recommended for athletes:

    http://www.epi.umn.edu/let/pubs/img/adol_ch16.pdf
    http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/lifecycle-nutrition/fitness-and-sports-nutrition/nutrition-athletes
    http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/lifecycle-nutrition/teen-nutrition

    They also referenced this guy, Dan Benardot a lot. He seems to be some sort of sports nutrition god.
    http://snhp.gsu.edu/profile/dan-benardot-ph-d-r-d-l-d-facsm/
    http://foodandsport.com/publications.html
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    Thanks, Lex! I will have a good read of all those links tonight. Greatly appreciated!
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    Keep in mind there is a big difference between a "Nutritionist" and a "Registered Dietitian". Almost anybody can call themselves a Nutritionist, but to be a Registered Dietitian you have to be certified.

    I hadn't even thought of that, thanks!! Excellent point. I'm not sure if the team nutritionist is a registered dietician or not.

    That's a good distinction to make, and I didn't. Glad someone did. I didn't think of it, because frankly, at the elite level, most of the quackery has been filtered out by things like the expectation of proper results.

    Quacks can't stand up to that. I cannot imagine what your food bills are like.
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    How frequent is that training regimen you listed above? I can figure it out if I know the frequency.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    Per week, per kid

    That would lead me to believe, weekly.
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    How frequent is that training regimen you listed above? I can figure it out if I know the frequency.

    It would also help to understand what type of swimming they're doing. Are they training for shorter events or longer events?
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
    How frequent is that training regimen you listed above? I can figure it out if I know the frequency.

    It would also help to understand what type of swimming they're doing. Are they training for shorter events or longer events?

    Good point, it would be advantageous to build muscle and subsequently strength if they're sprinters, whereas if they're distance swimmers endurance is more important than strength.
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    How frequent is that training regimen you listed above? I can figure it out if I know the frequency.

    It would also help to understand what type of swimming they're doing. Are they training for shorter events or longer events?

    Good point, it would be advantageous to build muscle and subsequently strength if they're sprinters, whereas if they're distance swimmers endurance is more important than strength.

    I would be cautious about building muscle in-terms of hypertrophy because adding weight will slow them down if their strength to weight ratio is not maintained or improved. But yes, it would be good to understand which energy system is tapped into more.
  • minizebu
    minizebu Posts: 2,716 Member
    If there is a university near you, then you might also try contacting their sports physiology / kinesiology department to see if they can offer assistance regarding nutrition for optimal sports performance. They may also offer metabolic testing.
  • blankiefinder
    blankiefinder Posts: 3,599 Member
    Thanks so much to everyone who has weighed in! I've started to work my way through the links Lex posted.

    My son has just started with the university team, so I am hoping he will have access to a better support team through them as the season gets going.

    My son is a breaststroker, best to worst: 200 breast, 100 breast, 200 IM, 50 Breast, 200 fly, then 400 IM (so more of a mid-distance)

    My daughter is a distance to mid, best to worst: 1500 free, 200 free, 800 free, 400 free

    Both are late maturing, my son may or may not be still growing, who knows, but based on shoe size I suspect he is done. My daughter is short compared to myself, definitely still growing, but I think she is probably close to done as well.

    It's definitely an advantage to be lean, 200 fly is much easier if you're not hauling an extra 20 pounds on your hips! :)
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    Okay, this would be my suggestion. These would be my starting points. They'll have to observe how they feel and then make adjustments.

    - Monitor their weight gain / loss
    - How is their energy level?

    If they start gaining weight and their energy is good, perhaps cut 5% to 10% from the calories from the carbs. If weight is consistent and energy is poor, increase calories by 5% to 10% in the form of carbs. There can always be variation by individual this is a starting point.

    Son
    approximately 2,510, calories
    - fat: 78 grams (important for maintaining hormone function)
    - carbs: 326 grams (energy, key for ATP production especially with what they're doing)
    - protein @ 2 grams per kilogram of body-weight: 126 grams

    Daughter
    approximately 2,023 calories
    - fat: 63 grams
    - carbs: 256 grams
    - protein @ 2grams / kg of BW: 108 grams

    Supplements to consider
    - a good multi-vitamin
    - fish oil 3 to 6 grams per day (unless they eat a lot of fish, may not be necessary)
    - ZMA is a good supplement to assist with sleep (recovery)

    Just so this doesn't sound complete random or bro-sciency... I'm about 3/4th's of the way done with my MS in Health & Exercise Science and actually just finished a course on performance nutrition. I'm also working on my NASM PES certification as well and will be done with that in December. All that aside, since your son is at a university he may have access to a strength & conditioning coach and it would be a good idea to consult with him/her as well. Also, a dietician that has a background in performance nutrition or an actual Performance Nutritionist would be a good to consult with this as well.
  • MicheleJM3
    MicheleJM3 Posts: 3 Member
    What is a "tdee"?
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    What is a "tdee"?

    Total Daily Energy Expenditure. It's a way of calculating your calorie requirements based on height, weight, and activity level without having to mess with something like an HRM which can be off by 20% or more anyways.

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