Muscle gain? anybody have any facts?

Great question!!!! I really hope someone comes back with the facts. I want to know myself because I am planning on starting heavy strength trng in Oct. You said you have gained but have you lost inches?? A pound of muscle weighs the same as a pound of fat but muscle is dense from what I've heard and read in the past. What kinds of foods are you eating?

Experts out there, please reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :flowerforyou:

well, it would make sense that a pound of muscle weighs the same as a pound of fat...and a pound of feathers or bricks would all weigh the same too..........

BUT, muscle is more dense than fat like you said, so a certain mass of muscle would weigh more than fat, yes. I would get your body fat tested and see what the experts say!

Go here for a picture of a pound of fat and a pound of meat

http://aleeshasrawlife.blogspot.com/2008/02/1-pound-of-muscle-vs-1-pound-of-fat.html

http://www.runtex.com/Body_Fat.asp

Just another resource. Personally, my weight plateaued for a month when I started running competitively again. I was 138-9 the whole month. BUTT (and it's a big one) I'm now wearing clothes I wore when I was five pounds smaller. I think a pound a month is MORE than reasonable, as it looks like I've put nearly five pounds on my legs in about a total of about six weeks. I do know for a fact that women's legs tend to bulk up faster than the rest of the body (in comparison) and that the legs are pretty much the largest muscle group in the body. I would expect that yes, your weight gain is totally attributable to muscle gain, especially if you did squats, lunges, and other "big leg lifting."

Big leg.............................lifting?
big.............................leg lifting?

HAHAHAH-sorry just a little stupid humor....

You need to check with songbyrdsweet on this one--she's all over the "muscle" facts! She can answer pretty much anything you need there.

Here is a quote I found on some forum talking about a similar topic

"Muscle gain varies greatly depending on the person and the level of exercise. Even two or three weeks of halfway decent cardio will produce some muscle changes and perhaps a small muscle gain - maybe a pound or two. For people who have never done resistance training (weight-lifting) and hit it whole hog, the gains can be over a pound per week. With moderate exercise programs, most people will notice performance gains within two weeks and shape changes within 4."

ACK!!!

Who wrote that? Ugh, nevermind...:grumble:
It takes 4+ weeks for NEUROLOGICAL changes...and 6-8 for changes in size. Even untrained people won't see hypertrophy in two weeks; they MIGHT see a modest strength change, but that can be attributed to correct form as well.

Okay, I'm here to burst bubbles again.
Why can't you guys ever make me the bearer of GOOD news?

Some plain caloric facts:
One lb of muscle requires 2800 excess calories to be built. So if you ate 100 excess calories per day, it would take about 1 month to gain ONE pound. If you ate 200 extra extra calories per day, you MIGHT be able to put on two pounds in a month. Theoretically, if you ate 500 calories extra each day, you'd gain a ton of muscle, but the body doesn't work that efficiently and we can't build tissue that quickly, so about half of that would result in extra fat gain rather than muscle gain.

If you are truly in a 200 calorie deficit....where are you getting the excess amino acids? The ATP needed for these processes to happen? Well, you aren't, let alone enough to gain 5 lbs of muscle in two months.

Now some endocrinology and muscular phys facts:
It takes more than lifting to promote muscle growth. It takes certain hormones, which, unfortunately, females don't have a lot of naturally. We first need lactic acid, and then GH, and then IGF-1. We get lactic acid from performing anaerobic activity for a period of time long enough to create oxygen debt. Basically, we need to feel the 'burn'. Not just slight discomfort...an intense burn that results in muscular fatigue within a few seconds. That promotes GH release, but not *immediately*. Hormones have a lag time of a few hours to a few weeks; GH levels take a day or two, and peaks in females during menstruation (no one knows why yet, haha). Once GH is released, it promotes the release of IGF-1, which goes into bone and muscle cells and accelarates their growth rates. How long that takes is individual, but it takes generally 48-72 hours to repair a muscle...so for 2-3 days after you've lifted, you're not gaining anything, you're just fixing what you've torn down. Women can really only rely on GH for muscle growth, which is why we are at a disadvantage; men have higher levels of GH AND testosterone. (Butt-heads :laugh: ).

Muscle fibers probably don't increase in number when they grow. No one's really sure, but it seems that they only increase in size. They swell with increased cytoplasm and mitochondrion to improve your anaerobic performance; these are parts of the cell that create ATP (energy) in anaerobic conditions. The enzymes produced when IGF-1 enters the cell actually have to enter systems that create ATP that will be used in producing more cytoplasm and organelles. It takes, like I said, 6-8 weeks to experience hypertrophy, or an increase in muscle fiber size.

That's why this takes tiiiiiiiimmmmmme.....a lot of it. Our bodies simply can't work that quickly. For a trained man to gain 12 lbs of muscle without excess fat in a YEAR is a huge feat. A woman will be looking at half of that.

As a side note, we can gain strength in a shorter time period due to the nature of strength gains--they involve the nerves, not the muscle fibers. Our nerves become easier to stimulate, meaning we can use more muscle fibers at one time, so we can lift heavier weight.

We can also manipulate the size/weight of our muscle fibers by filling them with glycogen. If we eat low/no carbohydrate, and then switch to suddenly eating moderate/high carbohydrate, we will experience an increase in weight due to water and the stored sugar. Most of it is store in the liver, but individual muscle cells will hold onto some for explosive power when they need glucose for anaerobic glycolysis.

I don't want to discourage anyone, and by no means should you assume that weight gain is fat, but believe me when I tell you that I only WISH it was that easy to gain muscle so quickly naturally.

http://www.ironmagazine.com/viewarticle-3995.html

Okay, so i gained 5 pounds of muscle, water and glycogen during that 6 weeks. But I was already decently fit (firefighter), and eating about 2400-3000 calories a day. After factoring in the exercise calories, I was about 1900-2000 most days. At the beginning of that six weeks I started running hard, not just a moderate pace (for myself). My best time for 3.1 miles (5k) went from around 28 minutes to just under 24 minutes. So what I posted was just from personal experience.

I'm sorry if I offended any experts.

http://weighttraining.about.com/od/succeedingwithweights/a/muscle_month.htm

There were quite a few references when I web searched, google it and you can get some good information.

Here is a quote I found on some forum talking about a similar topic

"Muscle gain varies greatly depending on the person and the level of exercise. Even two or three weeks of halfway decent cardio will produce some muscle changes and perhaps a small muscle gain - maybe a pound or two. For people who have never done resistance training (weight-lifting) and hit it whole hog, the gains can be over a pound per week. With moderate exercise programs, most people will notice performance gains within two weeks and shape changes within 4."

ACK!!!

Who wrote that? Ugh, nevermind...:grumble:
It takes 4+ weeks for NEUROLOGICAL changes...and 6-8 for changes in size. Even untrained people won't see hypertrophy in two weeks; they MIGHT see a modest strength change, but that can be attributed to correct form as well.

Okay, I'm here to burst bubbles again.
Why can't you guys ever make me the bearer of GOOD news?

Some plain caloric facts:
One lb of muscle requires 2800 excess calories to be built. So if you ate 100 excess calories per day, it would take about 1 month to gain ONE pound. If you ate 200 extra extra calories per day, you MIGHT be able to put on two pounds in a month. Theoretically, if you ate 500 calories extra each day, you'd gain a ton of muscle, but the body doesn't work that efficiently and we can't build tissue that quickly, so about half of that would result in extra fat gain rather than muscle gain.

If you are truly in a 200 calorie deficit....where are you getting the excess amino acids? The ATP needed for these processes to happen? Well, you aren't, let alone enough to gain 5 lbs of muscle in two months.

Now some endocrinology and muscular phys facts:
It takes more than lifting to promote muscle growth. It takes certain hormones, which, unfortunately, females don't have a lot of naturally. We first need lactic acid, and then GH, and then IGF-1. We get lactic acid from performing anaerobic activity for a period of time long enough to create oxygen debt. Basically, we need to feel the 'burn'. Not just slight discomfort...an intense burn that results in muscular fatigue within a few seconds. That promotes GH release, but not *immediately*. Hormones have a lag time of a few hours to a few weeks; GH levels take a day or two, and peaks in females during menstruation (no one knows why yet, haha). Once GH is released, it promotes the release of IGF-1, which goes into bone and muscle cells and accelarates their growth rates. How long that takes is individual, but it takes generally 48-72 hours to repair a muscle...so for 2-3 days after you've lifted, you're not gaining anything, you're just fixing what you've torn down. Women can really only rely on GH for muscle growth, which is why we are at a disadvantage; men have higher levels of GH AND testosterone. (Butt-heads :laugh: ).

Muscle fibers probably don't increase in number when they grow. No one's really sure, but it seems that they only increase in size. They swell with increased cytoplasm and mitochondrion to improve your anaerobic performance; these are parts of the cell that create ATP (energy) in anaerobic conditions. The enzymes produced when IGF-1 enters the cell actually have to enter systems that create ATP that will be used in producing more cytoplasm and organelles. It takes, like I said, 6-8 weeks to experience hypertrophy, or an increase in muscle fiber size.

That's why this takes tiiiiiiiimmmmmme.....a lot of it. Our bodies simply can't work that quickly. For a trained man to gain 12 lbs of muscle without excess fat in a YEAR is a huge feat. A woman will be looking at half of that.

As a side note, we can gain strength in a shorter time period due to the nature of strength gains--they involve the nerves, not the muscle fibers. Our nerves become easier to stimulate, meaning we can use more muscle fibers at one time, so we can lift heavier weight.

We can also manipulate the size/weight of our muscle fibers by filling them with glycogen. If we eat low/no carbohydrate, and then switch to suddenly eating moderate/high carbohydrate, we will experience an increase in weight due to water and the stored sugar. Most of it is store in the liver, but individual muscle cells will hold onto some for explosive power when they need glucose for anaerobic glycolysis.

I don't want to discourage anyone, and by no means should you assume that weight gain is fat, but believe me when I tell you that I only WISH it was that easy to gain muscle so quickly naturally.

THAT was hot!!! :devil: Thanks for the info. (seriously)

DELETE! been said and done. Sorry.

I will now read all posts.

Wow, that's a lot of information that I didn't have before. Thanks, SBS!

So, when women take up weight training and find themselves gaining rather than losing inches - what accounts for that? Since muscle is denser, and if you're only looking at a 1/2 pound likely muscle gain per month (assuming extra calories), I wouldn't have thought it took up that much space.

Wow, that's a lot of information that I didn't have before. Thanks, SBS!

So, when women take up weight training and find themselves gaining rather than losing inches - what accounts for that? Since muscle is denser, and if you're only looking at a 1/2 pound likely muscle gain per month (assuming extra calories), I wouldn't have thought it took up that much space.

You're welcome! Glad I could help.

The muscle fibers themselves don't; even the thickest muscle fibers (there are three types) are only as thick as a single hair! (Part of the reason I think they are SO cool).
However, they can swell with glycogen, the stored form of blood sugar. When we lift, we rapidly use up those stores of glycogen; they're 'for emergencies'. In reaction to that, we increase the capacity of glycogen storage, so the fibers get bigger without adding any tissue. Glycogen binds with water, which takes up even more space, and also adds weight. We also can't forget inflammation in response to the tissue damage caused by lifting, plus changes in osmotic pressure in the cells (which may also account for DOMS). Since most women lift with high rep sets, they're more likely to experience these changes (and DOMS...which I have right now, and it hurrrrts :sick: ).

You seem to be really on top of your game on this topic songbyrdsweet!

If gaining muscle is impossible on a calorie deficient diet, could you please enlighten me on the benefits of strength training while on a diet? I know that as you gain muscle, your BMR goes up, but does that really effect you if you aren't able to build any muscle?

Sorry if I seem uninformed on the subject, but I find it very confusing. Do you know the answer?

Thanks! :flowerforyou:

SBS (my new shortened version of Songbyrdsweet!) is great on these things! She's been tremendous help to me figuring out a lot of what is going on with my body and journey to healthy right now.

I gained 3 pounds in 2 days last week after a 45 mile bike ride and freaked! I PM'd her and she explained all about this glycogen stuff in our liver and muscles and depletion of it, gaining it back, etc. etc. Told me not to worry that it would go away almost as fast as it came--and she was right! Three days later, I woke up and had lost almost 4 pounds overnight!


SHE'S NOT ONLY A SMARTY BUT A CUTIE!

bumpin to 'my topics' for later reading

Thanks for all the input gang!:drinker:

Fitness chick--you can save the link to this post (by clicking on the URL window in your explorer) and then save that link to your blog. That way, you'll have a link to it as long as you wish.

SBS (my new shortened version of Songbyrdsweet!) is great on these things! She's been tremendous help to me figuring out a lot of what is going on with my body and journey to healthy right now.

I gained 3 pounds in 2 days last week after a 45 mile bike ride and freaked! I PM'd her and she explained all about this glycogen stuff in our liver and muscles and depletion of it, gaining it back, etc. etc. Told me not to worry that it would go away almost as fast as it came--and she was right! Three days later, I woke up and had lost almost 4 pounds overnight!


SHE'S NOT ONLY A SMARTY BUT A CUTIE!

Heheh thanks! :blushing:

I'm glad to hear that everything worked out for you! Your body is doing just what it's supposed to.