Intermittent Fasting Questions
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Yeah, I'd really like to read the Krista Varady book. I keep waiting for a local library to get it but I think I'll just spring for it on kindle. She's been researching it the longest and has the best qualifications. Johnson's a plastic surgeon. Mosley's a journalist with MD training he seems to have only used as a journalist.
I feel like the research just isn't there yet to prove anything solid about IF. I really think it is something that potentially has loads of benefits to it and that with time, research might prove many of them. Currently however, having read quite a bit of the relevant research available on IF, I think it's too early to say it's definitively anything more then an alternate style of feeding one's self.
I agree. But just for the sake of discussion, I think Johnson and Mosley (author of 5:2) claim there is some unique benefit to the spans of fasting. Who knows. Johnson claims it activates some special gene that helps fat loss (sirt1). Mosley claims it reduces some compound (igf-1) that causes cancer and other bads. Probably neither here nor there, but interesting to consider. They've known for decades that they can increase lifespan of mice by 40% through calorie restriction.Regardless of which method you pick, your overall weekly caloric deficit is what is going to drive results. So if you eat 2000 calories for 5 days, and 500 calories for 2 fasting days, your weekly average is 1571calories. If you do 16:8 and eat 1570 calories every day, you will have VERY similar results. If you don't fast at all and eat 1570 every day, you will have very similar results.
I can read Varady's published research but I'm sure the book puts it in a more interesting, readable format.0 -
Ok let me see if I can get this to make sense as to why I am sort of doing a bit of both methods....
I do the 16:8 to basically get my body to go through my glucose stores, then onto stored carbs, then to fat burning and also for stimulating SIRT1 (if theoretically all that works). But also, because I'm eating later in the day and only have a certain time frame for eating, it makes it easier for me to restrict calories to a greater degree because I simply can't eat as much food in a smaller time frame as I would feel miserably full. In general, I don't eat large meals, but I do eat often. In other words, the act of fasting helps me to cut back more on calories, so why not take advantage of that and fast/restrict together but in an alternate fashion so I'm not fasting all the time nor am I restricting all the time? Its basically a method for me to eat at a deficit easier while reaping the benefits of an occasional fast. On non-fasting/non-restricting days I eat as close to my normal deficit, but no more than my maintenance level. Then if my deficits are sufficient perhaps I can have a splurge day on a weekend without it completely sabotaging my entire week. Also, doing this helps me to realize true hunger versus habitual eating. Before trying any of this, I was finding that if I ate at my usual deficit every single day, I wanted to keep eating and still felt hungry all the time. I felt like I was planning my whole day around food and even when I knew I had already ate plenty of calories and should be full, I still wanted to eat. It seemed that eating food all the time (even within a deficit) stimulated the "want" for more food. So I already knew restriction was important as it is required for weight loss, but now it seems the fasting is just as important to help me distinguish when I am truly hungry and getting by for periods of time without having to have food constantly. Of course, I plan to still listen to my body and adjusting accordingly to other factors like how active I am on certain days or if I feel weak and unable to get through my workouts, then I know I need to make a change. I know it sounds like a lot to take on and a bit complicating but it seems the two methods work hand-in-hand greatly for me. Its a trial and error basis right now and I am sure it will take some tweaking until I figure out what works best.0 -
This is interesting. I never made the differentiation between ADF and IF that Vismal is. I always thought ADF was 4:3 where you're literally fasting every other day, where essentially ADF was a type of IF. But IF was a bigger umbrella term that encompassed more, including 16:8 window or the 5:2 plan.
I know I do 5:2 and from when I read the book, they said you could divide up your 500 calories between two meals if you had to but would get greater benefits if you could hold them all until dinner -- because you'd have the full 24 hour fasting period from dinner to dinner. I don't remember the specific of the genes/hormones, but I thought it was related to increased insulin sensitivity and IGF-2 which deals with cellular repair. I was particularly interested in the increased insulin sensitivity since I'm insulin resistant and that's why I was hoping I'd be able to hold out for the full 24 hour fast, which I ultimately found quite manageable. In fact, I found it easier than dividing into two meals throughout the day. When I did that, I found myself hungrier and it taking waaaay more will power to stick to 500 calories (or 25% of your TDEE) than if I just held everything until dinnertime.0 -
Technically 16:8 and 5:2, 4:3 could all be called intermittent fasting. Technically eating for 16 hours and sleeping for 8 could be called intermittent fasting. I guess you could say all alternate day fasting is intermittent fasting, but not all intermittent fasting is alternate day fasting.This is interesting. I never made the differentiation between ADF and IF that Vismal is. I always thought ADF was 4:3 where you're literally fasting every other day, where essentially ADF was a type of IF. But IF was a bigger umbrella term that encompassed more, including 16:8 window or the 5:2 plan.
I know I do 5:2 and from when I read the book, they said you could divide up your 500 calories between two meals if you had to but would get greater benefits if you could hold them all until dinner -- because you'd have the full 24 hour fasting period from dinner to dinner. I don't remember the specific of the genes/hormones, but I thought it was related to increased insulin sensitivity and IGF-2 which deals with cellular repair. I was particularly interested in the increased insulin sensitivity since I'm insulin resistant and that's why I was hoping I'd be able to hold out for the full 24 hour fast, which I ultimately found quite manageable. In fact, I found it easier than dividing into two meals throughout the day. When I did that, I found myself hungrier and it taking waaaay more will power to stick to 500 calories (or 25% of your TDEE) than if I just held everything until dinnertime.0 -
Technically 16:8 and 5:2, 4:3 could all be called intermittent fasting. Technically eating for 16 hours and sleeping for 8 could be called intermittent fasting. I guess you could say all alternate day fasting is intermittent fasting, but not all intermittent fasting is alternate day fasting.This is interesting. I never made the differentiation between ADF and IF that Vismal is. I always thought ADF was 4:3 where you're literally fasting every other day, where essentially ADF was a type of IF. But IF was a bigger umbrella term that encompassed more, including 16:8 window or the 5:2 plan.
I know I do 5:2 and from when I read the book, they said you could divide up your 500 calories between two meals if you had to but would get greater benefits if you could hold them all until dinner -- because you'd have the full 24 hour fasting period from dinner to dinner. I don't remember the specific of the genes/hormones, but I thought it was related to increased insulin sensitivity and IGF-2 which deals with cellular repair. I was particularly interested in the increased insulin sensitivity since I'm insulin resistant and that's why I was hoping I'd be able to hold out for the full 24 hour fast, which I ultimately found quite manageable. In fact, I found it easier than dividing into two meals throughout the day. When I did that, I found myself hungrier and it taking waaaay more will power to stick to 500 calories (or 25% of your TDEE) than if I just held everything until dinnertime.
Gotcha. That's what I thought the differentiation was but was interested in what you knew -- thanks for the clarification.0 -
I definitely did not enjoy fasted workouts. :mad:
i am the opposite, i work-out fasted every day and LOVE IT.
i feel so much stronger, very strange, i know!
(i do take BCAA before working-out, but it has zero calories and zero carbs)
I thought I would love it, but I was wrong :ohwell: didn't rock the BCAAs, though...
using the BCAA's made a HUGE difference in my lifting. i can lift much heavier when i use them. (sometimes i run out the door to the gym and forget to drink it)
try watermelon flavor of the brand USP Labs. i got it at GNC, zero carbs and tastes great.
10g about 30 min before i work-out.0 -
It looks like you are trying to mix 2 forms of IF. The 16:8 and 5:2
I would suggest you try one or the other and see how it goes. I personally do 5:2 and love it. I eat 500 calories twice a week and around TDEE other days. Timing of eating does not matter.
I THINK for 16:8, you do it everyday, and have a 8 hour eating window.
It seems people have success with both, but I think combining the 2 is just going to make it unnecessarily complicated.
good luck
yes i agree. i didn't like 5:2 at all. i am a consistency freak so the 18:6 works better for me because it's every single day.0 -
Bumping this thread because it discusses something I've been trying to determine myself. I've been following Varady's ADF for about 12 weeks now - so limiting myself to 500 calories every other day and eating whatever I want on the other days. My weight loss has been slower than I had hoped. Averaging 0.7 lbs/week, but I also don't have a lot to lose, live a pretty sedentary lifestyle, and am at the point in my life where things are starting to slow down.
My husband recently decided to join me, but he didn't stay on ADF for very long before switching over to a 16:8 IF. I had read about the benefits of fasting in regards to SIRT1 and IGF-1 and started comparing what he was doing to what I was doing and realized I was only getting the benefits of a fast every other day, and he was getting them every day.
For about 2 weeks I tried changing my schedule where I would eat my 500 calories in the early afternoon - allowing me an 18hr fast both before and after my meal and matching the number of fasts he was getting a week, which according to the Leangains diet is the optimum length of fasting. (It's only supposed to be 14hrs for women, but I figured I'd try it with 18.) I found it hard to avoid dinner. It also seemed like I was having more side effects like headaches and just feeling "off", but that could have been attributed to something else.
I look forward to the day when there is more research on SIRT1 and IGF-1. I still favor Varady's research and wish she would include it in her studies. She seems the most valid of the 3 in terms of ADF. The others seem to be out to make money, and she seems more interested in the research than selling books. Also my neighbor works with her, so how can I ignore that.
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I am doing a calorie cycling diet routine to maintain weight and lose fat, and Intermittent Fasting is a staple in this program. I fast 16 hours 4 days per week on cardio days with a slight calorie deficit.
On strength training days I eat to a slight surplus and do not fast.
My macro's are balanced for each day as well.
I know egg heads argue and debate these issues, and they've already began here
I just tried it for myself, and in 3 years of weight maintenance, I have cut 3 inches off my belly and went from 22% body fat down to 15%. It's a slow process that is steady but sure. Others have gotten results using different methods, so who knows?
Try it for yourself. Good Luck!
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I am doing a calorie cycling diet routine to maintain weight and lose fat, and Intermittent Fasting is a staple in this program. I fast 16 hours 4 days per week on cardio days with a slight calorie deficit.
On strength training days I eat to a slight surplus and do not fast.
My macro's are balanced for each day as well.
I know egg heads argue and debate these issues, and they've already began here
I just tried it for myself, and in 3 years of weight maintenance, I have cut 3 inches off my belly and went from 22% body fat down to 15%. It's a slow process that is steady but sure. Others have gotten results using different methods, so who knows?
Try it for yourself. Good Luck!
First off thank you for your info and congrats to you! That's a great transformation! Just to update everyone since starting this thread, I have been doing about a 16 hr fast 3 days a week, alternating days, and I am trying to also make those days a bit of restriction in calories to 1,000 or less. The rest of the days I am eating at about maintenance or a bit less. Its been going quite well and right off the bat in the first week or two I dropped a few pounds, but thanks to a week of vacation and some bad eating habits and not working out as much, I gained a bit of that back. So I'm back into doing my fasting/restricting schedule again.
You said you fast on cardio days and eat at a surplus on strength training days, I realize now that my fasting days land on my strength training days. Should I be fasting on cardio days instead? I am however keeping my macros more in check on fasting days and really increasing the protein and trying to cut more on carbs to try to help keep me fuller longer and help with the fasting/restricting, but coincidentally I thought it would also help with strengthening since I realized I was doing it on those days also. The rest of the days I just try to stay within Fitnesspal's suggested macros. But will fasting on strength training days hinder my strength and muscle building? Should I be using my higher calorie days to fuel my strength training and use my cardio days to help boost calorie burns on fasting days? As I have said before, I just want to make sure I am making the best of my calorie burns and not doing anything to sabotage the strengthening along the way. I didn't really plan for my fasting to be on strengthening days, it just worked out that way and I didn't really think about risks vs benefits of fasting/restricting and strengthening vs cardio days.
Thanks again everyone for your help and info!0 -
Helpful info here! I have been experimenting with IF, too, and find it suits me better to listen to my body's cues for when to eat. Glad to see other people having good results with IF! I especially struggle with breakfast, even when I workout in the morning, I am often not hungry until late morning.0
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From what I have gleaned, it may not matter. My reasons for fasting on cardio days is for the possible benefits of IF as well as calorie control.You said you fast on cardio days and eat at a surplus on strength training days, I realize now that my fasting days land on my strength training days. Should I be fasting on cardio days instead?
On my cardio days I eat at deficit.
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Not because I believe a certain way, but I am a breakfast lover and I find that I am hungry and ready to eat not long after I wake up, but that is probably because I typically don't eat much at night, once again, not because I think its bad to eat at night, that's just the way I always have done it. Also, breakfast-type foods are my favorite, I could eat them anytime of day. So I always looked forward to waking up and immediately eating my favorite foods. I too became the type of person to never skip breakfast and I thought it was the most important meal of the day. Since starting IF however, I find that even though I initially wake up very hungry, after I drink a bit of water or plain black coffee, my hunger diminishes and isn't as bad as I initially thought it was. Then I am able to wait until around noon to eat, preferably right after I workout. The first 5 minutes or so of my workout can be a bit tough but then I surprisingly start feeling pretty good for the rest of it. The best benefit of IF I have found however is that for the remainder of the day, I am able to consume much less calories than if I had started eating earlier in the day and I feel much more satisfied from my meals. I still do enjoy eating breakfast, especially with my morning coffee (coffee is just so much better with breakfast foods!) but I am realizing that I can go without it or at least go longer without it. I agree that we have became so ingrained to believe we have to eat first thing in the morning and I am starting to see that maybe that's really not the case.0
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I did IF for about six months. I had no issues with fasted training or my fasting window. Main problem for me was that based on my schedule I had to get majority of my eating fit into the evenings and I felt like I did was make food in the evenings, so eventually I just stopped and went to four meals a day.
I will say this...if you want to add muscle, lose body fat, etc. YOu can accomplish that with a good ole fashioned calorie deficit and heavy lifting. IF is not some magical fat burning principle. If you find that IF makes it easier to create said deficit, then go for it..just don't except the results to be any better than any other method out there...0 -
I will add, I started Leangains 16:8 five days ago. I am enjoying it. There have been periods in the AM it has been a little tough and I am pretty sure it is mental, but I expect that will change after a couple weeks. For the most part my fasted, early AM workouts have been phenomenal. I even had one day I couldn't work out till 12:30 and still had an awesome workout 17 hours fasted.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy breakfast, but I think most of the time I didn't eat it because of hunger, it was because "it was time". So now, I will just have my sausage, hash browns, toast and eggs for lunch or supper.0 -
I will say this...if you want to add muscle, lose body fat, etc. YOu can accomplish that with a good ole fashioned calorie deficit and heavy lifting. IF is not some magical fat burning principle. If you find that IF makes it easier to create said deficit, then go for it..just don't except the results to be any better than any other method out there...
Exactly, and I realize this. I mainly wanted to try IF to help me distinguish true hunger and not eat out of habit. As for the fat burning principal....I think IF could have somewhat of an effect on that, but I think maybe it needs to be researched a bit further to be able to say 100%. It makes sense however that your body will choose to use the food you've just eaten as energy rather than the fat you have stored and if that is true, then it seems more optimal to work out while in a fasting state. Then of course by essentially skipping a meal, it has helped me to eat at a lower deficit by having less of a time frame to eat. I don't typically eat very big meals anyway, but I was getting into a habit of "grazing" throughout the day and I wasn't really paying attention if I was really hungry or not. So after fasting I'm certain that I AM HUNGRY and I eat a regular good sized meal which essentially helps me stay full until my next meal later in the day (maybe a small snack in between) and then I'm done eating for the day and low and behold I've eaten less but stayed just as full. Win-win! I'm still in the very early stages of being in this trial of IF so I'm still learning what is working and what isn't.0 -
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There is a very real bio-physiological reason why powerlifters especially should work out in the morning, and have their first meal of the day afterwards. I think if you continue with this protocol you will be very very pleased with the results.
I agree. Unfortunately with my lifestyle and work schedule, I dont get the opportunity to have an early workout. At least no earlier than 11:00 or 11:30 a.m., but even that seems to be working pretty good for me. I just try to either go longer on the fast or eat my pre-fast meal later the previous day. I'm going to continue on this protocol for now and see how it goes. So far, so good!
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You can't make a single case for eating breakfast. Not one. Even those of normal weight are better off without it. You can make a GREAT case that even kids should not get loaded down with breakfast- but kids are worshiped in our society and what better way to express love than to make someone eat crappy food first thing in the morning?!!
i think you have to take cultural history into account.
if you remember, immigrants coming to america prior to the industrial revolution had two options: stay in the cities, or strike out on their own working the land. those who became farmers would have needed a decently large meal after caring for the livestock to provide energy for the rest of the morning's work. i grew up in the midwest, and the same still kind of holds true for the families who are working farms... dad and kids get up and take care of the livestock, mom makes breakfast, everyone eats, then the kids go off to school while dad works on the farm. so breakfast becomes purely a matter of "hey i need something to eat so i'm not so distracted by hunger that i can't get the stuff done i need to do."
personally, i've never really been a breakfast person. i'm not a fan of most of the foods (except bacon.... LOVE bacon), and i'm fine with just coffee and 2-3 tablespoons of light cream. with just that, i'm ok to wait until lunch. if i try to eat something more substantial, then i end up starvingly hungry at lunch and will easily overeat.
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I'm super new to all this.
I'm 27, 5'10 and I weigh 225 lbs. I've been bigger my whole life (in fact, bigger than this at many points)
Weight loss has always been a struggle, and I recently heard about this kind of fasting as a way to make the fat "melt off you". It does seem tempting, seeing as how every other day I can still eat the foods like I like.
I guess my real question is, should I be eating at all on the fast days, or would it be more beneficial to just not eat at all every other day?0 -
Leon- From what I've read there isn't a lot of benefit to going below 25% of maintenance on fast days.
The fat isn't melting off of me, so I'd go in with tempered expectations. There is no magic bullet, just various methods that might appeal to some more to create deficits.0 -
for those of you who are doing JUDDD or ADF and are also on a regular workout schedule, do you adjust your workouts to align with your "up" and "down" days?
i've been playing with the idea of ADF, and it's a dangerous concept for me (history of ED), but i'm hoping it might be the tweak i need to get my rate of loss up into the calculated/expected rate. currently i work out 4-5 days a week, with full body circuit/weight training 3x alternating with focused ab work and cardio 2x. both seem to be equally intensive, so which workouts would go on the "up" days and which on the "down" days... or should i adjust to put the heavier workouts on the "up" days and just do cardio on the "down"?0 -
Leon, read the thread linked below. He has a good write up. He did a self experiment with IF and he tried each version for a month each. It is a really good read and helped me get a good understanding of the differences. I wish he would have done Leangains 16:8 first so I could see if he had similar weight loss, but I will do my own experiment.
precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting/introduction0 -
I do 18:6 every day and on top of it do 5:2. I have Lupus and no longer have a thyroid and this way still have lost 55 pounds. I do not suffer because of an ultra low calorie limit and feel fine. I eat 1200 calories, because I am over 65, under 5 feet and moderately active. Without IF I would have to go so low in calories that it would not be very health conscious. This way I easily get all my macros, eat a decent amount of food in the way I prefer by eating two really big meals instead suffering on anywhere from 3-5 meals that are nothing more than snacks.
IF works for some people and for others it does not. You have to play around a bit to see what suits you. I do however think, with all due respect, that a nine hour feed and 15 hour fast is not much of an IF regimen.0 -
Thanks for the insight guys. I'll try and post results as I go along.
-LG-0
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