LCHF and Cancer...
Replies
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Do you have any proof that on a 'long term' low carb diet the brain functions less effectivley than on a medium to high carb diet!!!!
I'll wait while you go look!
I do, and it's already been posted by me.
Okay - can I have a link 'please'
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Do you have any proof that on a 'long term' low carb diet the brain functions less effectivley than on a medium to high carb diet!!!!
I'll wait while you go look!
I do, and it's already been posted by me.
Okay - can I have a link 'please'
I have a meeting till 4,sesrch for long term low carb diet effect on cognition
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tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Do you have any proof that on a 'long term' low carb diet the brain functions less effectivley than on a medium to high carb diet!!!!
I'll wait while you go look!
I do, and it's already been posted by me.
Okay - can I have a link 'please'
I have a meeting till 4,sesrch for long term low carb diet effect on cognition
That's okay dude, I wait till you've finished your meeting.!
I google what you said and got this as one of the first things!
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/3/580.long
The conclusion of this study comparing LCHF with High Carb was:
Conclusions: Both dietary patterns significantly reduced body weight and were associated with improvements in mood. There was some evidence for a smaller improvement in cognitive functioning with the LCHF diet with respect to speed of processing, but further studies are required to determine the replicability of this finding.
So I'm assuming this isn't the one you were referring to?0 -
The only proven uses of ketogenic diets are in the treatment of neurological disorders these neurological disorders have issues with uptake and metabolism of glucose in the brain ketones provide an alternative fuel source. Ketosis the body's adaptation to starvation. Whether in ketosis or not the body will do everything it can to make glucose0
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The only proven uses of ketogenic diets are in the treatment of neurological disorders these neurological disorders have issues with uptake and metabolism of glucose in the brain ketones provide an alternative fuel source. Ketosis the body's adaptation to starvation. Whether in ketosis or not the body will do everything it can to make glucose
Of course it will as there are several organs in the body and parts of our brain function that will only run on glucose - it makes sense the body will do what it has to.
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This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Actually...on a low carb diet the brain uses ketones. I would suggest you not say anything if you really have no knowledge on it.
LOL MY post get flags but its fine for him to attack other users? Gotcha. I love how MFP is always so one sided.
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The only proven uses of ketogenic diets are in the treatment of neurological disorders these neurological disorders have issues with uptake and metabolism of glucose in the brain ketones provide an alternative fuel source. Ketosis the body's adaptation to starvation. Whether in ketosis or not the body will do everything it can to make glucose
Erm, that's a little simplistic and not entirely correct.
When in ketosis, glucose becomes an afterthought. The ketone bodies *are* the fuel, and the glucose just isn't necessary.
Meanwhile, here's another article on ketosis and cognitive functioning. Unfortunately, it also details how much better off it is.
Pah, though, Psychology Today. Buncha discredited quacks...
[edit]
OHHHH, maybe this is it - from Forbes... It looks to be sort of a collection and summary of other stories (incl. the psych today one above).
They did find one that said in DEVELOPING brains, glucose deprivation is a Bad Thing(tm).
Very interesting, that. I'll keep this power out of my kids' hands for now, I guess.0 -
KaroshiQueen wrote: »And for the record, some of us "clean eaters" do eat bacon. Lots of it. Just the uncured kind from the farm down the street.
Geez, no! I wasn't making a ignorant comment on clean eaters. Those were two separate thoughts. A comment on where everyone was at (and I wasn't wrong about that. They have been tearing clean eating up like crazy) and THEN the bacon. The article OP posted ( and the quote he posted) mentioned bacon. And I love bacon. Sorry for the confusion. I honestly wasn't being an *kitten*.0 -
Btw. The brain only requires 30% of it's fuel from glycogen. That's 70% of it's fuel from ketones for the keto peeps. On a ketogenic diet the body converts protein to glycogen to meet the brain's small remaining demand for it.
Is this naïve, but is a state of starvation not how weight loss works period? You consume fewer calories than you burn, therefore, after a point, the fat stores are depleted to keep the body running. The fat stores are the body's protection against starvation. You are slowly depleting that cushion (ha, cushion...pun) during weight loss.
It doesn't matter how you burn the fat, just that you do, generally speaking.
Nutritional ketosis is not starvation mode. NK is generally accepted as .2 to 3.0 mmol/L of blood ketone concentration. Starvation ketosis is 3-6 mmol/L. Most people, even while trying, have a hard time nudging over 4 while trying their darnedest. (3.5 mmol/L is the concentration achieved during exercise, FYI.)
So ketogenic diets cannot logically be accused of inducing starvation mode.
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And my final 54 cents for the moment.
Whether or not a LCHF diet cures cancer...NOTHING can cure cancer. EVER. Not sponsored races or pills. Unless you reconfigure the workings of all animal cells. What can be done is to retard cancer growth by killing the abnormal cells. Which is what the aims of radiation and drug therapies are. Studies show that cancer is fed by sugar, so logically limiting your intake isn't a bad approach in an effort to slow their proliferation and kill them by starvation. More research needs to be done for sure, but no one can say with a certainty that LCHF having an effect on some cancers has been "debunked."
And if people are going to say people are quacks, produce evidence, so that we can judge for ourselves. Just because some dudes on the interwebz said so ad nauseam isn't evidence.0 -
There's been no significant research one way or the other as far as I can tell. A quick search of Pubmed brings up a grand total of five papers. One is a commentary on fad diets, one is a methods paper on urinary fructose and sucrose excretion, leaving three with some relevance.
Of those, one is a cell line and mouse study looking specifically at p53 mutant tumors, concluding that "a carbohydrate-free dietetic regimen that lowers the fasting glucose levels blunts p53 mutant expression and oncogenic activity relative to a normal diet in several animal model systems"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23151455
The second is a mouse study of tuberous sclerosis complex-related tumors finding "our data support the concept of glycolytic inhibition as a therapeutic approach in TSC whereas dietary withdrawal of carbohydrates was not effective."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22018000
The third is bizarre - just a reference and no authors or abstract available. I've never seen this in PubMed before:
Colon cancer survival worse for patients with high-carb diet.
[No authors listed]
Oncology (Williston Park). 2012 Dec;26(12):1209. No abstract available.
PMID:
23413602
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related citations
So, no useful conclusions, which is what I would expect. If there were any sort of tangible evidence that a LCHF diet would help cancer patients, I can promise you that the health center I work for would be recommending it to our cancer patients since translational medicine is a major focus for us.0 -
This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Wow, I guess I should stop teaching Maths then. Carbs are NOT a required nutrient the body can make its own glycogen and function on ketones. I have had better mental clarity whilst on keto for a year.
After all 9+10 = 21
19? I don't get it...0 -
KaroshiQueen wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Cancer cells feed on sugar - so much so that's how you detect them. Common sense tells me that if I have something that is killing me, I'd be pretty stupid to keep feeding it in any fashion. Do you leave out yummy snacks for roaches when you want to be rid of them?
All your cells feed on sugar--glycogen.0 -
KaroshiQueen wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Cancer cells feed on sugar - so much so that's how you detect them. Common sense tells me that if I have something that is killing me, I'd be pretty stupid to keep feeding it in any fashion. Do you leave out yummy snacks for roaches when you want to be rid of them?
All your cells feed on sugar--glycogen.
Yes. Unless they are in ketosis and feeding on ketones.0 -
This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Wow, I guess I should stop teaching Maths then. Carbs are NOT a required nutrient the body can make its own glycogen and function on ketones. I have had better mental clarity whilst on keto for a year.
After all 9+10 = 21
19? I don't get it...
.
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This is disgusting. A quack doctor giving desperate, dying people false hope, to push his agenda and products.
Just when I think the guy couldn't sink any lower.
No. A ketogenic diet doesn't cure cancer. You know how I know? Because no one has cured cancer with a ketogenic diet.
This is why carbs are important. The brain functions poorly without them.
Wow, I guess I should stop teaching Maths then. Carbs are NOT a required nutrient the body can make its own glycogen and function on ketones. I have had better mental clarity whilst on keto for a year.
After all 9+10 = 21
19? I don't get it...
Math teacher on keto (supposedly) missing an addition problem... Saying that people in ketosis are stupid. Or just being ridiculous and obtuse with a comment.0 -
A little ongoing study about LCHF and cancer:
http://feinmantheother.com/2012/10/15/targeting-insulin-inhibition-as-a-metabolic-therapy-in-advanced-cancer/0 -
Oh, and to prevent dementia!
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/do-carbs-cause-alzheimers0 -
I'm just gonna leave this here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/06/24/more-hype-than-science-ketogenic-diets-for-cancer/0 -
Well, of COURSE, you doofmarbles!
EVERYTHING is just a hypothesis until someone sits down and tests it.
But I did find it extremely noteworthy that in order to diagnose my MIL's cancer, they did what?
Pumped her full of a glucose solution and then scanned her body to see where it was being devoured the most hungrily.
Does it not stand to reason that the converse may also stand? Starve the cells of their food, and they will then wither?
(Incidentally, Donna_Olsen - probably linking to Dr. Oz will not help this side of the argument at all
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rprussell2004 wrote: »Well, of COURSE, you doofmarbles!
EVERYTHING is just a hypothesis until someone sits down and tests it.
But I did find it extremely noteworthy that in order to diagnose my MIL's cancer, they did what?
Pumped her full of a glucose solution and then scanned her body to see where it was being devoured the most hungrily.
Does it not stand to reason that the converse may also stand? Starve the cells of their food, and they will then wither?
(Incidentally, Donna_Olsen - probably linking to Dr. Oz will not help this side of the argument at all )
Hypoglycemia for all!
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Someone post a study of what ISNT linked to causing cancer. Thanks in advance.0
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FunkyTobias wrote: »I'm just gonna leave this here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/06/24/more-hype-than-science-ketogenic-diets-for-cancer/Well, goddammit... wrote:Throughout his talks, both here and elsewhere, Dr. Seyfried presents mouse studies that are interesting and suggestive that there might be something to this whole ketogenic diet thing, at least in brain tumors, such as this one. However, this is what we in the oncology biz would call pretty preliminary data, worthy of further investigation but not supporting the grandiose claims that Dr. Seyfried makes.
That's a good, albeit disappointing read.
Thanks, I think.0 -
And I've heard a high carb vegan diet also helps cancer.
Anything to push an agenda. And let's not even talk about dr. Mercola!0 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »I'm just gonna leave this here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/06/24/more-hype-than-science-ketogenic-diets-for-cancer/
Good read.0 -
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http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/22/2/286.long
This study was done on.... Humans. 69,12 Total participants.
Results: A total of 2,939 incident cancer cases were identified. The multivariate HR of overall cancer risk among vegetarians compared with non-vegetarians was statistically significant [HR, 0.92; 95% confidence interval (CI), 0.85–0.99] for both genders combined. Also, a statistically significant association was found between vegetarian diet and cancers of the gastrointestinal tract (HR, 0.76; 95% CI, 0.63–0.90). When analyzing the association of specific vegetarian dietary patterns, vegan diets showed statistically significant protection for overall cancer incidence (HR, 0.84; 95% CI, 0.72–0.99) in both genders combined and for female-specific cancers (HR, 0.66; 95% CI, 0.47–0.92). Lacto-ovo-vegetarians appeared to be associated with decreased risk of cancers of the gastrointestinal system (HR, 0.75; 95% CI, 0.60–0.92).
Conclusion: Vegetarian diets seem to confer protection against cancer.
Impact: Vegan diet seems to confer lower risk for overall and female-specific cancer than other dietary patterns. The lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets seem to confer protection from cancers of the gastrointestinal tract. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev; 22(2); 286–94. ©2012 AACR.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »And I've heard a high carb vegan diet also helps cancer.
Anything to push an agenda. And let's not even talk about dr. Mercola!
Having any opinion on MFP seems to = "having an agenda". This is BS. I tried both sides of the carb fence; one worked, one didn't. I state opinions based on the facts I observed. Research from a variety of (legitimate) sources seems to corroborate my individual experiences. This is hardly an agenda, and that applies to anyone.
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FunkyTobias wrote: »I'm just gonna leave this here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/06/24/more-hype-than-science-ketogenic-diets-for-cancer/
Detailed, but fascinating article. I hope all of you read it. That is what is called a "reputable source." The other links being posted are pure garbage. Like I say all the time, where you choose to get your information from makes all the difference in the world.
Yes, very sobering. It stinks. The tendency of people to let their egos get in the way of reality never ceases to let me down.
Well, maybe someone will find an actual needle in that haystack eventually.
LCHF is still a great eating plan tho 0
This discussion has been closed.
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