Protein...
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
It depends on the person and the overall amount of calories being consumed. Granted, I'm not even close to 180 pounds. But still, I'm reasonably certain I've never hit 135 grams of protein, and I don't think I've gone over 100 grams more than a couple times.GuitarJerry wrote: »JMoore221979 wrote: »Also, don't buy into the myth that you need extremely high amounts of protein. You don't. You need reasonable amounts as part of a balanced diet.
goaskalice.columbia.edu/do-bodybuilders-and-other-weightlifters-need-more-protein
Hows that a myth? The author of your article states that a 180lb person needs almost a gram per pound of body weight. Most people don't get 170 grams per day and I would consider that a higher than average intake.
The last sentence in the article should raise some flags as well as they state that if the protein is taken in as a fatty type it will lead to fat gain....well using powder the cals and fats are typically low. Clearly if its a food with higher fat content than the cals are higher as well...
I agree. Typically you need somewhere in the neighborhood of .8 to 1 g of protein to every 1lb of lean mass, not of total body weight. So, if you weigh 180, and you have 25% fat, that's 135g of protein per day. Even at that amount, it's a lot of protein. Most people don't get that much unless they really try hard. If you just eat oatmeal for breakfast, a sandwich and chips for lunch, and then a hamburger for dinner, you will be nowhere near your protein requirements. For lifting heavy, you need it to feed your muscles. If you don't want to or can't, it's not the end of the world. But, it should be a goal to try to reach. It's pretty easy once you get into it though. the main problem for some people is they don't like a protein heavy diet, and they don't care for the kinds of foods that carry high protein. I guess that sucks. In that case, if I were that person, I'd try to rely more on powders for my protein needs.
They have to try hard? Really? 135g is pretty easy.
Yep, I only hit that much protein when I eat a pound of shrimp in a day. If I'm backing off of animal products, it can be hard to get over 70 grams unless I really plan for it carefully.
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JMoore221979 wrote: »Hows that a myth? The author of your article states that a 180lb person needs almost a gram per pound of body weight. Most people don't get 170 grams per day and I would consider that a higher than average intake.
The last sentence in the article should raise some flags as well as they state that if the protein is taken in as a fatty type it will lead to fat gain....well using powder the cals and fats are typically low. Clearly if its a food with higher fat content than the cals are higher as well...
If you read it again, they state that the RDA is between 0.8-1 gram per kilogram of body weight, not per pound.
1kg = 2.2lbs. So if you weigh 180lbs, you weigh 81kg and would require between 64 and 81 grams of protein per day.
The article also is also geared towards bodybuilders eating at a surplus, not people trying to lose weight eating at a deficit. The suggestion to aim for lean protein versus fatty protein, though, has significant support in the medical community, as high amounts of saturated fats in large quantities of meat consumed have been linked to heart disease. Fat isn't the enemy, in balance, but aiming for a good ratio of healthy to unhealthy fats is also useful.
Good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ratio of macros matters much less when you're bulking (from what I've read.) Protein is really important when cutting or eating at a deficit because, combined with lifting, it helps protect your muscles, leading your body to burn more fat instead.
Am I remembering this right?
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »Good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ratio of macros matters much less when you're bulking (from what I've read.) Protein is really important when cutting or eating at a deficit because, combined with lifting, it helps protect your muscles, leading your body to burn more fat instead.
Am I remembering this right?
I've read conflicting things on that. I think there is some evidence to suggest that more protein, combined with lifting weights, is beneficial during weight loss. But other studies suggest that it's just because you get a quick initial drop from cutting back on percentage of carbs, but that most dieters fail if they try to get too high a percentage of protein because it's not sustainable long term. And pretty much everything I've seen suggests that "more" doesn't mean "a lot more" -- it could mean going from 20% to 35%, say, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support extremely high protein ratios -- and in fact, there are health risks associated with that, too.
I'd say read and judge for yourself. But my personal opinion is that it's all about balance, moderation, and creating a plan that you can live with long term. After all this is a lifestyle change, not a diet.0 -
FWIW, I'm personally targeting 20% protein in my macros, which for me is equivalent to just over 1g/kg of body weight, or, if you'd rather, about 0.8g/lb of lean body mass. It's not particularly high, no, but then, I don't eat much meat, and it's a significant increase from how much protein I used to eat. Some might suggest I go higher, but it seems to be working out okay for me so far, and it's also an amount I feel like I can stick to.
YMMV.0 -
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Chicken breast, turkey, eggs, yogurt, protein shakes. Seafood, too, has very low calorie, high protein. Shrimp is super easy and fast. Just sautee in a little olive oil, throw in some garlic, lemon juice, or whatever seasoning you like.0
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »Good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ratio of macros matters much less when you're bulking (from what I've read.) Protein is really important when cutting or eating at a deficit because, combined with lifting, it helps protect your muscles, leading your body to burn more fat instead.
Am I remembering this right?
I've read conflicting things on that. I think there is some evidence to suggest that more protein, combined with lifting weights, is beneficial during weight loss. But other studies suggest that it's just because you get a quick initial drop from cutting back on percentage of carbs, but that most dieters fail if they try to get too high a percentage of protein because it's not sustainable long term. And pretty much everything I've seen suggests that "more" doesn't mean "a lot more" -- it could mean going from 20% to 35%, say, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support extremely high protein ratios -- and in fact, there are health risks associated with that, too.
I'd say read and judge for yourself. But my personal opinion is that it's all about balance, moderation, and creating a plan that you can live with long term. After all this is a lifestyle change, not a diet.
Calories are just as important, if not more important, in maintaining LBM during a cut. You can be in a deficit of up to 31 cals/lb of BF before you start to cut in the your LBM mindandmuscle.net/articles/determining-the-maximum-dietary-deficit-for-fat-loss/ this article offers some interesting information for those trying to diet without losing muscle.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »You can be in a deficit of up to 31 cals/lb of BF before you start to cut in the your LBM.
Are you sure about that number? It seems off. For instance, that would mean that an 150lb woman with 30% BF could eat at a deficit of nearly 1400 calories per day before cutting into LBM? Doesn't seem right.
Or do you mean deficit per week?0 -
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No, that's about right. It doesn't guarantee 100% lean mass retention, but it's better than someone that doesn't have very much stored energy to spare and goes into a similar 1400 calorie deficit.Wheelhouse15 wrote: »You can be in a deficit of up to 31 cals/lb of BF before you start to cut in the your LBM.
Are you sure about that number? It seems off. For instance, that would mean that an 150lb woman with 30% BF could eat at a deficit of nearly 1400 calories per day before cutting into LBM? Doesn't seem right.
Or do you mean deficit per week?
forums.lylemcdonald.com/archive/index.php?t-11223.html0 -
Most of what I've read suggests that the average person who eats at a deficit and does not strength train will likely lose about 80% fat / 20% LBM. That varies based on starting BF%, of course -- people with higher BF% will lose more fat and less muscle, and vice-versa. But that's with a normal deficit. A deficit as big as 31 cals/lb of BF would have me eating only 200 calories/day, and I'm sure I would lose a heck of a lot of muscle if I were to try that. (And if I did it for very long, I'd probably be dead.)
I'd just treat that study with a grain of salt, is all.0 -
People lose lean mass not based on their body fat percentage but how they set up their whole routine which includes diet and exercise. But reality is the more body fat a person has the more deficit they can sustain without losing lm simply because adipose tissue is usable energy, much like my dinner tonight.Most of what I've read suggests that the average person who eats at a deficit and does not strength train will likely lose about 80% fat / 20% LBM. That varies based on starting BF%, of course -- people with higher BF% will lose more fat and less muscle, and vice-versa. But that's with a normal deficit. A deficit as big as the one above would put me at something like 600 calories/day and I'm sure I would lose a heck of a lot of muscle if I were to try that.
I'd just treat that study with a grain of salt, is all.
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neanderthin wrote: »But reality is the more body fat a person has the more deficit they can sustain without losing lm simply because adipose tissue is usable energy, much like my dinner tonight.
That much is true. I'm just putting on my skeptic's hat about the number of 31cals/lb of BF. I don't think that has any particular evidence to support it, and it seems very high.
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A quick look and I found this....ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615neanderthin wrote: »But reality is the more body fat a person has the more deficit they can sustain without losing lm simply because adipose tissue is usable energy, much like my dinner tonight.
That much is true. I'm just putting on my skeptic's hat about the number of 31cals/lb of BF. I don't think that has any particular evidence to support it, and it seems very high.
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I've just discovered Kashi Original brand cereal as a protein source. 13g in one cup of cereal. Add your milk or milk alternative and you could make more than 15 grams. Granted, it's not what I'd call tasty, but neither are a lot of protein drinks. It also has the advantage of high fiber which is a plus when you're eating high protein, low carb.
By the way, don't go super low on the carbs...glucose is what the brain runs on and current science (PM me for cites) isn't impressed with the results from low carb diets. Yeah, I know it's controversial and I'm not interested in arguing the finer points. You gotta read the research yourself to make the most informed decision...then run with it.0 -
One thing I've noticed is that MFP friends who are getting a lot of protein (and drink a lot of water) seem to have the best results in steadily losing weight. Many do use protein powder and/or protein snack bars.
I rely on eggs, tuna, peanut butter,some dairy, and lean meat for my protein. But I often fall short of my daily goal.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »You can be in a deficit of up to 31 cals/lb of BF before you start to cut in the your LBM.
Are you sure about that number? It seems off. For instance, that would mean that an 150lb woman with 30% BF could eat at a deficit of nearly 1400 calories per day before cutting into LBM? Doesn't seem right.
Or do you mean deficit per week?
It's per day, but there are probably other factors such as level of activity that will mitigate the exact number of calories you can derive from fat before you get into LBM. Remember, just because you aren't burning muscle doesn't mean you aren't losing muscle so a sedentary person might still be losing muscle.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »SnuggleSmacks wrote: »Good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ratio of macros matters much less when you're bulking (from what I've read.) Protein is really important when cutting or eating at a deficit because, combined with lifting, it helps protect your muscles, leading your body to burn more fat instead.
Am I remembering this right?
I've read conflicting things on that. I think there is some evidence to suggest that more protein, combined with lifting weights, is beneficial during weight loss. But other studies suggest that it's just because you get a quick initial drop from cutting back on percentage of carbs, but that most dieters fail if they try to get too high a percentage of protein because it's not sustainable long term. And pretty much everything I've seen suggests that "more" doesn't mean "a lot more" -- it could mean going from 20% to 35%, say, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support extremely high protein ratios -- and in fact, there are health risks associated with that, too.
I'd say read and judge for yourself. But my personal opinion is that it's all about balance, moderation, and creating a plan that you can live with long term. After all this is a lifestyle change, not a diet.
Calories are just as important, if not more important, in maintaining LBM during a cut. You can be in a deficit of up to 31 cals/lb of BF before you start to cut in the your LBM mindandmuscle.net/articles/determining-the-maximum-dietary-deficit-for-fat-loss/ this article offers some interesting information for those trying to diet without losing muscle.
I do appreciate the work that Lyle did there and I enjoy all of his work, but that was based on non resistance training participating individuals which I guess in this case, since the OP falls into that category, might apply. However, Lyle has stated that the theory isn't solid.
There are a lot of factors I'm sure. Weight training certainly helps preserve muscle as we have observed.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »
A quick look and I found this....ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615neanderthin wrote: »But reality is the more body fat a person has the more deficit they can sustain without losing lm simply because adipose tissue is usable energy, much like my dinner tonight.
That much is true. I'm just putting on my skeptic's hat about the number of 31cals/lb of BF. I don't think that has any particular evidence to support it, and it seems very high.
Thanks for that link.0 -
Fish is a great tip, @SnuggleSmacks and @VeryKatie.SnuggleSmacks wrote: »Seafood. Very low calorie, high protein.
Without resorting to Sushi/Sashimi (which I love) how can you get fish in your diet that doesn't involve a lot of (less healthy) preparation? ideas?
My flavor of the month is using canned tuna to make a kind of sushi-ish salad. I use 1 can of tuna (120 cals) plus 2 tsp or 1 tbsp. of soy sauce (10 - 20 cals) and a tsp of Sriracha chili sauce (5 - 10 cals). Mix that together, chopping 30-40 grams of celery (or more if you like) or green onion or cucumber or all of those (it bulks up the dish and give it some crunch). So that's about 150 cals in under 5 minutes
And I think it has 28 grams of protein.
And if you happen to like the flavor of the canned tuna without all that, just eat it as is haha. You can also add mayo and hard boiled egg if you want. Or with... sour cream and salsa - lots of people like that (though admittedly it wasn't my favourite). You can also buy flavoured tuna. As well as other fish types too! Just check the label for protein ratio (eg. crab is oh so tasty but does have about half the protein as tuna - but also has half the calories. But it's way more expensive than tuna.). You can by canned tuna with less sodium too for a bit more than the regular $1 cans.
I also buy the frozen basa fillets (Sea Quest). I throw it on a cookie sheet on tin foil with some kind of seasoning mix (eg. Cajun, Tex Mex, Lemon Pepper - you can get most low sodium if you like) on it and bake it in the oven (from frozen) for like 20 minutes. So if you have time to wait but little desire to prep, it's really easy to do that. 21 g protein for a 142 g serving which is 100 calories (most of the fillets are much larger than that, some up to 250 grams (so 37 g protein?). Salmon is another good option, though a bit fattier (healthy ones though). You may also like cod, sole, tilapia, or trout. My mom just puts the fillets in a cast iron frying pan and lets it simmer until cooked so that's another way to cook the fish.
You could also make a stir fry with shrimp/prawns if you want (I can't remember how much protein is there)! You can buy the shrimp in bulk, precooked and frozen and mix them in with edamame beans (more protein) as well as other veggies, maybe some tofu and make some kind of sauce for it. You'd have to Google a recipe for a sauce though. If you use soy sauce remember to dilute it (oh dear, that was my worst cooking accident ever).
Thanks @VeryKatie, for the quick&easy fish recipes/suggestions.
And thanks, everyone for your suggestions (mmmm edamame!) !
Cheers!0 -
In the context of my response about protein intake, no. I've seen you recommend .6 to .87 grams per pound of bodyweight. Shooting for the middle of that range puts me nowhere near 135 grams, and even the upper end of the range is below 135.ForecasterJason wrote: »
It depends on the person and the overall amount of calories being consumed. Granted, I'm not even close to 180 pounds. But still, I'm reasonably certain I've never hit 135 grams of protein, and I don't think I've gone over 100 grams more than a couple times.GuitarJerry wrote: »JMoore221979 wrote: »Also, don't buy into the myth that you need extremely high amounts of protein. You don't. You need reasonable amounts as part of a balanced diet.
goaskalice.columbia.edu/do-bodybuilders-and-other-weightlifters-need-more-protein
Hows that a myth? The author of your article states that a 180lb person needs almost a gram per pound of body weight. Most people don't get 170 grams per day and I would consider that a higher than average intake.
The last sentence in the article should raise some flags as well as they state that if the protein is taken in as a fatty type it will lead to fat gain....well using powder the cals and fats are typically low. Clearly if its a food with higher fat content than the cals are higher as well...
I agree. Typically you need somewhere in the neighborhood of .8 to 1 g of protein to every 1lb of lean mass, not of total body weight. So, if you weigh 180, and you have 25% fat, that's 135g of protein per day. Even at that amount, it's a lot of protein. Most people don't get that much unless they really try hard. If you just eat oatmeal for breakfast, a sandwich and chips for lunch, and then a hamburger for dinner, you will be nowhere near your protein requirements. For lifting heavy, you need it to feed your muscles. If you don't want to or can't, it's not the end of the world. But, it should be a goal to try to reach. It's pretty easy once you get into it though. the main problem for some people is they don't like a protein heavy diet, and they don't care for the kinds of foods that carry high protein. I guess that sucks. In that case, if I were that person, I'd try to rely more on powders for my protein needs.
They have to try hard? Really? 135g is pretty easy.
You do realize that the more you post the clearer the statement I made to you in the bulking section becomes right?0 -
I'm vegetarian and I try to get 125-150g of protein a day. I get about 70-90g from foods like tofu (freeze and thaw before you use it to improve the texture and flavour), tempeh, edamame, lentils, beans, seitan, (which is made of wheat gluten so pay attention to how you feel after eating a lot of it; some people are sensitive), whole grains, and nuts. I also drink whey protein shakes for breakfast and after workouts to make up the difference. I don't eat eggs and I don't use much dairy (just cheese and whey powder mostly), but they are good non-meat protein sources.
Whole grains have more carbs than protein, and nuts have more fat than protein, but they still contribute to my daily total. I don't really use them as primarily protein sources, but they can add 10-15g a day to my total so they're worth mentioning.
I have read some abstracts regarding studies of soy isoflavones and the possibility of endocrine disruption and I am comfortable consuming 5-6 servings a week, but if you are concerned, I suggest you do your own reading. People have a lot of varying opinions on soy and its phytoestrogens, so I won't presume to tell anybody else what is right or wrong. I'm not a professional dietician, I just wanted to make sure that I made as informed a decision as I could for myself.
I don't know if you would need as much protein as I do. I have a condition that causes muscle wasting, so my protein needs are higher than they would be for a healthy person with my same stats.0 -
My favorite: tuna salad.
1 can tuna, 3 servings of egg whites (cooked), 1 tbs mayonnaise and the rest is onion, pickles, cucumbers sometimes, lots of mustard. 300 calories, only 3.5 carbs, 4 g fat, but 55 g. protein!! This helps me keep down my carbs and bring up my protein yummy and filling.
I had this for dinner last night around 6 pm and was not at all hungry after that.
I like to add chopped celery instead of cucumber for the extra crunch, and once i added a serving of creamy goat cheese. It added extra calories, but it was so delicious. if you add sesame oil, it gives it a very nice flavor (you don't need much, just a splash).
Other ingredients I tried: olives, cut up tomatoes,parsley.0 -
I've just discovered Kashi Original brand cereal as a protein source. 13g in one cup of cereal. Add your milk or milk alternative and you could make more than 15 grams. Granted, it's not what I'd call tasty, but neither are a lot of protein drinks. It also has the advantage of high fiber which is a plus when you're eating high protein, low carb.
By the way, don't go super low on the carbs...glucose is what the brain runs on and current science (PM me for cites) isn't impressed with the results from low carb diets. Yeah, I know it's controversial and I'm not interested in arguing the finer points. You gotta read the research yourself to make the most informed decision...then run with it.
I can't go super low on my carbs anyway or I'm a total witch I need the carbs for brain function. I could have told those scientists that years ago. Ha ha!
Didn't realize Kashi has such high protein. Hey it's better than grapenuts! That stuff is like chewing aquarium gravel.
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Do you have a smoker or a smoke box for your grill? Some of your stronger tasting fish are tastier when smoked. And, I'm a lazy cheater with shrimp...I buy a big bag of precooked frozen salad shrimp and thaw out 3 oz portions to eat cold, usually on top of a big salad. I also poach large amounts of chicken at once, then portion into baggies of 4 oz. I freeze most and thaw out as needed, one of my favorite post living meals is to mix a bag with a cup of plain Greek yogurt, celery, and curry powder...low cal protein heavy chicken salad....0
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