Wanted to start a 5x5 type program but trainer is against it.
JadeRabbit08
Posts: 551 Member
So I was hoping for some advice before my appointment with a trainer on monday afternoon.
I spoke to the trainer when making an appointment and when discussing goals he said I should start with doing a much higher amount of reps (x12) for about 3 months before doing anything else. (I was doing weights for the first 4 months of last year before chronic fatigue and illness kicked my *kitten*.)
I've got a bad feeling that I am about to be served an uninspiring routine of high rep low weight with most of the lifting concentrating on isolated muscle groups. I was really interested in doing lifting involving compound muscle groups like squats. Maybe I should just suck it up and just do whatever routine I am handed but I've gone from excited to feeling this is going to be a chore.
My goals for weights are -
To take advantage of newbie gains while I am still carrying quite a lot of fat.
Get strong in a way that can be used in day to day life.
Vanity, I would love sculpted looking arms, legs and back.
I am obese but losing weight. I've lost 7.5 kilos in 41 days since restarting MFP which is probably a bit fast but I am expecting that to slow down slightly as I keep tweaking what food I eat and I get ever nearer to my goal weight. Started at 116.5 kilos and I am aiming for 60-65 kilos which was my old weight when I was reasonably fit.
So what do you think an obese woman in her mid forties should be doing as a start up for lifting?
(edited to fix weird sentence structure)
I spoke to the trainer when making an appointment and when discussing goals he said I should start with doing a much higher amount of reps (x12) for about 3 months before doing anything else. (I was doing weights for the first 4 months of last year before chronic fatigue and illness kicked my *kitten*.)
I've got a bad feeling that I am about to be served an uninspiring routine of high rep low weight with most of the lifting concentrating on isolated muscle groups. I was really interested in doing lifting involving compound muscle groups like squats. Maybe I should just suck it up and just do whatever routine I am handed but I've gone from excited to feeling this is going to be a chore.
My goals for weights are -
To take advantage of newbie gains while I am still carrying quite a lot of fat.
Get strong in a way that can be used in day to day life.
Vanity, I would love sculpted looking arms, legs and back.
I am obese but losing weight. I've lost 7.5 kilos in 41 days since restarting MFP which is probably a bit fast but I am expecting that to slow down slightly as I keep tweaking what food I eat and I get ever nearer to my goal weight. Started at 116.5 kilos and I am aiming for 60-65 kilos which was my old weight when I was reasonably fit.
So what do you think an obese woman in her mid forties should be doing as a start up for lifting?
(edited to fix weird sentence structure)
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Replies
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Have you paid the trainer yet? If yes, talk to them about what they are planning to have you do. There's nothing wrong with 12ish rep sets as long as it's a mix of compound lifts and maybe some isolation lifts. If no, get a different trainer.0
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If you want to do 5x5 the trainer really needs to justify why he is against it. If it is because he thinks it will not result in fat loss, they perhaps you need a different trainer. Frankly, if you want to lift heavy doing 5x5 with him helping you get your form correct, then it might be time to say that is what you want him to do. If you hired him to put together a program, well, then discussion needs to happen about what sort of program you actually want (compound lifts and heavy weights).
Just as an aside, 5x5 starts really light, but fairly quickly gets to higher weights.0 -
I haven't paid yet but I was hoping to go into the discussion with a bit more information and confidence so I could stick up for what I would really love to do. I think he would listen if I was assertive enough.
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Thanks for your replies guys, its good advice
My goals are not this
but this -
and my inspiration is this -
I don't see any women heavy lifting at this gym and their women's program is all machines and cardio so I am slightly worried.
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If your gym has the equipment and you have the clearly stated goal of training for strength, it's my personal opinion that your trainer should be getting paid to help you with the goal you ask for, not what he thinks you should be working toward. I'm not sure why a lot of PTs seem to want to start people on that same low-weight, high-rep workout.0
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If you want this, and this is what you desire to have the trainer work with you on. Simply insist on it. You are the client and he is there to assist you.0
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i have just started 5x5 on my own .. but for teh last few months ive been using dumbells and working up to this..im glad i did start off as i did as i have managed to maintain myself and sanity rather than jumping in at the deep end with 5x5 .. i dont ever think ill go all the way with 5x5 but im giving it a go ..and as the others have said.. it starts off light n goes up ..
i didnt pay a pt to tell me anything i just read up on stuff in here and i have built myself up slowly and worked on form with most things..i can say that i am really glad i did a LOT of bodyweight and weighted squats as this has prepared me for the 5x5
I'd do what you feel comfortable with and tell the pt what you want from day one .. to me, it sounds like he wants you on his books for the duration.. more bucks in his pocket.0 -
I'm ambivalent about this. You can achieve what you want with what he's suggesting. If he stated 3 months then I think that's a reasonable amount of time for him to size you up and for you to see how you'll (bodily) respond at this stage...given post chronic illness too. Although if he pulls out a pink 1kg dumbell I'd definitely spit chips.
At 119kg I was trained predominately cardio (kick bag, rower etc) with body resistance.
At around 95kg progressed to high rep, low weight cardio with HIIT.
At around 85kg, mostly what he's suggesting to you. My before n after in profile (black singlet) is the result of all the above (73kg). More definition than I imagined, strength gain and of course weight loss. I was not bored until this year but also I had injury which started me thinking down the compound trek.
For example, leg press maxed out at 80kg because of a niggle in back. Ticked me off. So we stopped using it. Squats became too easy. I needed some grunt. Enter compounds. My trainer had to be talked into it because I'm a creaky old soul. Insurance/injury a worry for a private home run gym and I spent a couple of months behaving and proving form on everything! Got my way and loved it. As you know have left training with enough knowledge base to feel confident I'll behave.
So point being...what he's suggesting can still be interesting and advantageous towards your goal. At 3 months, I'd re-evaluate. Trainers do tend to have a preferred method initially and I kind of understand that. It's later on, if you're bored and they baulk at changing that I'd question their intent.
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Im not sure what your trainer has in mind as far as the lifts but Strong lifts 5x5 starts as low weight and low reps. If your trainer wants to start you the same weight on the same lifts but doing more reps then that might be good also.
5x5=25
3x12=36
Even if the weight was a little lower the total work might be very similar but you would get more reps to work on form.
I would try to get more details on what his program will look like and make sure he knows what your goals are.
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Personal training is a business. So is managing a gym. In my personal experience, some trainers are worth the money, if they are experienced and competent. However, most trainers that are attached to a gym have no choice, but to stick with the business model of this gym. And that's dragging clients along as much as possible to assure continued business. As a previous poster wrote, the program that you have in mind, is fast paced, and can progress quickly. They won't be able to suck too much money out of your pocket. Once you get into it, you can do it on your own. Stand up for your goal! If the trainer starts debating, dump him! You money, your choice!
Just 2 cents of my money on this topic...lol
Happy lifting!0 -
I'm ambivalent about this. You can achieve what you want with what he's suggesting. If he stated 3 months then I think that's a reasonable amount of time for him to size you up and for you to see how you'll (bodily) respond at this stage...given post chronic illness too. Although if he pulls out a pink 1kg dumbell I'd definitely spit chips.
At 119kg I was trained predominately cardio (kick bag, rower etc) with body resistance.
At around 95kg progressed to high rep, low weight cardio with HIIT.
At around 85kg, mostly what he's suggesting to you. My before n after in profile (black singlet) is the result of all the above (73kg). More definition than I imagined, strength gain and of course weight loss. I was not bored until this year but also I had injury which started me thinking down the compound trek.
For example, leg press maxed out at 80kg because of a niggle in back. Ticked me off. So we stopped using it. Squats became too easy. I needed some grunt. Enter compounds. My trainer had to be talked into it because I'm a creaky old soul. Insurance/injury a worry for a private home run gym and I spent a couple of months behaving and proving form on everything! Got my way and loved it. As you know have left training with enough knowledge base to feel confident I'll behave.
So point being...what he's suggesting can still be interesting and advantageous towards your goal. At 3 months, I'd re-evaluate. Trainers do tend to have a preferred method initially and I kind of understand that. It's later on, if you're bored and they baulk at changing that I'd question their intent.
I love, love your arms and the difference in your photos are amazing.
I really don't want to do any cardio at the gym I find it really boring.
I prefer walking (hopefully going back to running once I am at a weight that my knees can handle it) and I've dusted off my old racing bike which didn't collapse under my weight and I am having fun taking that out. Just starting out on 10k rides but I'll build up speed endurance as I go.
I thought that stronglifts/ 5x5 would probably suit my personality type more and I would be more likely to stick to it.
I can still leg press around 110 kilos x 12 even after having the 6 month break so I think trainers can underestimate the strength of fat people. After all my obesity meant I've spent the last few years carrying the equivalent weight of another person up and down the many stairs at my uni.
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Have an open and honest discussion. There can be some very good reasons why the trainer would suggest such a program and those recommendations are not incompatible with your long-term goals.
You mentioned that you have not been lifting for 8 mos or so due to chronic illness, so spending some time rebuilding your base and conditioning your body for heavier work is not a bad idea per se.
It could very well be that a trainer could stereotype you and try to push you into a "granny" program, but you should be able to easily determine that during your initial meeting.
Trainers have dual responsibilities. On the one hand, you are there to serve your customer and give them what they want. OTOH, you are also a trained professional whose job is to give them what they need. I've been in situations where I tried to do too much of #1 and not enough of #2, and it is usually not a good outcome.
If you were my client, this would be a straightforward process. We would discuss your goals, what you liked to do, assess your current ability and fitness level, and come up with a plan. If initially I felt you needed something different than what you originally wanted, I would clearly explain why, and how the initial program would help you reach your ultimate goal.
I would lay out a timetable as to how we would progress, and we would build in checkpoints where we would assess your progress and I would get your feedback on whether you were satisfied with our direction.
I suspect that most quality trainers would do the same thing. So, like I said, you should be able to figure out who you are dealing with pretty quickly. Take the pictures you posted here and be totally blunt about what you want. A good trainer will enjoy the give-and-take and appreciate your input. If the trainer seems put off, or dismissive, then you politely and quickly move on.0 -
He doesn't want to do it because he's knows you're going to figure out you don't need him and he is going to lose 3 months of pay off you jump straight into the program.
Tell him you're willing to keep him on as a trainer because of form/motivation etc etc and if not.. You can do it on your own.0 -
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Thanks for your feedback people. I will let you know how it turns out after my appointment tomorrow.0
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Maybe the trainer wants to address proper form first. And assess where to start you.
I say give it a shot and see. But don't sell out, he/she works for you.0 -
Maybe the trainer wants to address proper form first. And assess where to start you.
I say give it a shot and see. But don't sell out, he/she works for you.
No he wants me to do 3 months of what he has in mind. I think he has "assessed" me at a glance and already made his decision. Ill know more in a few hours.0 -
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Maybe the trainer wants to address proper form first. And assess where to start you.
I say give it a shot and see. But don't sell out, he/she works for you.
the only way to "address proper form" is by doing the thing that requires doing. there are ways to work into it- but to dismiss the program for 3 months is horrible advice.
There are simple two reasons 1.) he's incompetent and doesn't ACTUALLY know anything or 2.) he wants more money out of her and the way to get that is to extend training.
pretty much it.0 -
JadeRabbit08 wrote: »
So what do you think an obese woman in her mid forties should be doing as a start up for lifting?
Mid-forties? Any full-body workout is probably fine, but I'd stick with 8-12 reps, especially in the first three months. It's effective and safe, you can make progress on that. It's actually what's advised by the NASM for beginners (google to see their current recommendations).
Also, even people with a lot of training years behind them transition to working smart vs. working hard, after a certain age. Heck, even Schwarzenegger uses machines now. I would approach this more from the point of view of injury prevention and less from the POV of "I want a hard body". Because 5 reps of 5 is hard on the body, and if you've had chronic fatigue and illness, why not stay on the safe side?
edit: 8-12 reps isn't exactly pink dumbbells. Come on.
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JadeRabbit08 wrote: »Maybe the trainer wants to address proper form first. And assess where to start you.
I say give it a shot and see. But don't sell out, he/she works for you.
No he wants me to do 3 months of what he has in mind. I think he has "assessed" me at a glance and already made his decision. Ill know more in a few hours.
I don't think it's about you as a person, it's probably more to do with your risk profile.0 -
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Given that youHe doesn't want to do it because he's knows you're going to figure out you don't need him and he is going to lose 3 months of pay off you jump straight into the program.
Tell him you're willing to keep him on as a trainer because of form/motivation etc etc and if not.. You can do it on your own.
Bingo^^^^
It's his job to train you but it's also his job to make money. Either he has no clue about 5x5 which is totally possible or he's against it for the reason above.
The 8-12 rep range has its function. Lyle McDonald's wrote a great series on training for the beginner obese individual. Other people chose that range because it just might be conducive to their goals.
A good trainer needs to be able to listen to what the client wants.
Or he's NASM certified and competent enough to understand someone with a history of "chronic fatigue and illness" shouldn't start off without a ramp up.
Cmon, the op has been unable to describe the trainer's program other than its x 12. Which only tells me she's not yet competent enough to evaluate a trainer.
It's unlikely any trainer is going to stick to x 12 program exclusively. (If only, because one has to keep clients motivated, not bored dead.) There are some great programs in that range - AllPro comes to mind...0 -
JadeRabbit08 wrote: »Maybe the trainer wants to address proper form first. And assess where to start you.
I say give it a shot and see. But don't sell out, he/she works for you.
No he wants me to do 3 months of what he has in mind. I think he has "assessed" me at a glance and already made his decision. Ill know more in a few hours.
I don't think it's about you as a person, it's probably more to do with your risk profile.
If she doesn't know why he is making her do something then he's not explaining things properly and that means he's not doing his job. Risk profile? Does that mean we should automatically assumassumed ever woman in her mid 40's has the same capabilities?
Previously sedentary/no prior experience with fitness, overweight, mid-40s, I don't know, seems like it's better to stay on the safe side to me. Certainly in the first few months. Those ligaments and things need time to get used to these movements and loads.
Re "every women in her 40s etc" - no, but that's why you follow established guidelines for a while and then re-evaluate.0 -
Get Mark Rippetoe's book "Starting Strength" and find a trainer who knows something about lifting. http://startingstrength.com/0
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My opinion is trust your trainer. Did you research his work experience? .
I can tell you that first what matters is losing weight and the high rep low weight thats the purpose.......he knows if not then why trust him?
Diet is 80% and weight Training 20% you can train all day but if you dont diet whats the point?
Do I make sense?0 -
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Ok back from the session
To those discussing that I was unable to describe the trainer's program other than its x 12 which means that I am incompetent to access a trainer, I would just like to clarify (for my prides sake) that was ALL he said to me while booking the first initial consult. It was a 1 minute conversation. I was given no program or description. I can't read minds. (sorry about not getting all the details in, rereading my post I can see how people could have misconstrued how long the conversation went for.) What I did take away from that very short communication was his reluctance at the time.
The post was more about my wariness from previous trainers when I was fit (before I got ill for the first time which is over ten years ago) and my disappointment that he didn't seem keen from the get go about 5x5.
I have lifted before although not SL and when I got into weights a number of years ago there was a lot of broscience around so I have a lot to update myself with information wise. So I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to express their view and give me some direction. It helps and I went into the initial consult with a much clearer description of what I would like to do.
So what happened?
He sat down and listened first, and asked a lot of questions about what I wanted to achieve. Really professional guy and I totally have egg on my face over this.
He also ran overtime and seemed more interested in getting things right than rushing off.
Despite all my initial fears he was absolutely fine with me wanting to do compound type lifting, and encouraged it (which pretty well makes me a panic merchant over the whole thing) he then accessed me to check my range of movement to see if there was anything that needed to be addressed before I could start lifting.
I get a program from him on Friday and it is only for the first 4 weeks. He wants to work on more range of movement in my calves in preparation for doing squats with weight. Also building strength in my less dominant left side. We didn't talk about 5x5 but I am ok with that as long as the goals are strength and using more compound lifting which he supported.
I am doing lifting for strength gains and hopefully to minimise muscle loss while I am losing fat. I am relying on my calorie deficit from dieting to lose the fat (its working well so far)
I have other fitness goals to do with my cycling and at the moment walking/ later running. (I miss cycling and running a lot)
This is a totally different class of trainer than what I have had before and I am definitely keeping him.
Lesson learnt - don't allow previous crappy experiences to completely shade your expectations.
and I didn't see one pink weight.0 -
JadeRabbit08 wrote: »
So what do you think an obese woman in her mid forties should be doing as a start up for lifting?
Mid-forties? Any full-body workout is probably fine, but I'd stick with 8-12 reps, especially in the first three months. It's effective and safe, you can make progress on that. It's actually what's advised by the NASM for beginners (google to see their current recommendations).
Also, even people with a lot of training years behind them transition to working smart vs. working hard, after a certain age. Heck, even Schwarzenegger uses machines now. I would approach this more from the point of view of injury prevention and less from the POV of "I want a hard body". Because 5 reps of 5 is hard on the body, and if you've had chronic fatigue and illness, why not stay on the safe side?
edit: 8-12 reps isn't exactly pink dumbbells. Come on.
I've had enough down time from sickness so I am all for the injury prevention angle.
I wasn't aware that 5x5 was harder on the body than other lifting programs so that is good to take into account. I'm all about the safe side, my goals are about seeing progression in the long term.
As for "the 8-12 reps isn't exactly pink dumbbells" well if its 8-12 reps holding a 1 kilo weight I beg to differ!
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JadeRabbit08 wrote: »JadeRabbit08 wrote: »
So what do you think an obese woman in her mid forties should be doing as a start up for lifting?
Mid-forties? Any full-body workout is probably fine, but I'd stick with 8-12 reps, especially in the first three months. It's effective and safe, you can make progress on that. It's actually what's advised by the NASM for beginners (google to see their current recommendations).
Also, even people with a lot of training years behind them transition to working smart vs. working hard, after a certain age. Heck, even Schwarzenegger uses machines now. I would approach this more from the point of view of injury prevention and less from the POV of "I want a hard body". Because 5 reps of 5 is hard on the body, and if you've had chronic fatigue and illness, why not stay on the safe side?
edit: 8-12 reps isn't exactly pink dumbbells. Come on.
I've had enough down time from sickness so I am all for the injury prevention angle.
I wasn't aware that 5x5 was harder on the body than other lifting programs so that is good to take into account. I'm all about the safe side, my goals are about seeing progression in the long term.
As for "the 8-12 reps isn't exactly pink dumbbells" well if its 8-12 reps holding a 1 kilo weight I beg to differ!
If it's a 1 kilo it better be a burnout cooldown set of 60-100 reps.
Some trainers are good, some trainers aren't. Some clients are good, some clients aren't.
A lot of times it is important to be able to properly communicate, this thread demonstrates that on several levels.0
This discussion has been closed.
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