trying to cut: change lifting plan?
williamgprice
Posts: 20 Member
very long read...sorry:
I started SL5x5 in mid December. No serious lifting program before that. I've been kind of teaching myself as a I go proper form and trying to follow that accordingly.
I've been on a cut so to speak this entire time and not a lot of weight has come off because I keep changing my diet goals. I'm 32 yo, 5'11" and currently 215 lbs. I work in an office setting so pretty sedentary aside from 3 lifting sessions a week. I do try to get in about 30 minutes of walking spread out through the day during the week (gotta leave the desk every once in a while right?). Formerly, I had gotten up to about 250 lbs right before my first child was born. Through calorie counting and sessions of paleo, I got myself down to about 190. The last year has been a little stressful and I've been dipping into more craft beer too so there's why i'm at my current weight.
The problem I'm having is that I'm stalling on squats. After the second workout where I didn't complete 5x5, I deloaded by about 20 lbs. The next time that happened, I switched down to 3x5. Today, I failed my first set on 230 but was able to finish the second 2 sets. I just feel like I'm not getting enough fuel in. I was able to finish my 5x5 OHP @120. No real problems on my 1x5 deadlift of 255 either. My bench is pretty weak at 140 as of Monday (still 5x5).
I mentioned earlier that I've been switching back and forth on diet technique because I'm impatient and don't know what to do. IIFYM says 2680 for TDEE. I feel that I can lift much better during the weeks where I go 2200 kcal/day but I go nowhere on my weight. I get discouraged and drop down to 1700 calories or so (a hybrid amount between the tdee calc and the mfp app amount). I can usually stick to that amount but damn if I feel weak in the squat rack.
I want to get down to 185 (I'll go get a bodpod then, hopefully at 15%). Should I pick a lower kcal amount to get there and instead of progressively increasing lifts go with a static non increasing volume? Should I just say f it and stick with the .8xTDEE and stay on 5x5 (3x5 for squats)? halp
I started SL5x5 in mid December. No serious lifting program before that. I've been kind of teaching myself as a I go proper form and trying to follow that accordingly.
I've been on a cut so to speak this entire time and not a lot of weight has come off because I keep changing my diet goals. I'm 32 yo, 5'11" and currently 215 lbs. I work in an office setting so pretty sedentary aside from 3 lifting sessions a week. I do try to get in about 30 minutes of walking spread out through the day during the week (gotta leave the desk every once in a while right?). Formerly, I had gotten up to about 250 lbs right before my first child was born. Through calorie counting and sessions of paleo, I got myself down to about 190. The last year has been a little stressful and I've been dipping into more craft beer too so there's why i'm at my current weight.
The problem I'm having is that I'm stalling on squats. After the second workout where I didn't complete 5x5, I deloaded by about 20 lbs. The next time that happened, I switched down to 3x5. Today, I failed my first set on 230 but was able to finish the second 2 sets. I just feel like I'm not getting enough fuel in. I was able to finish my 5x5 OHP @120. No real problems on my 1x5 deadlift of 255 either. My bench is pretty weak at 140 as of Monday (still 5x5).
I mentioned earlier that I've been switching back and forth on diet technique because I'm impatient and don't know what to do. IIFYM says 2680 for TDEE. I feel that I can lift much better during the weeks where I go 2200 kcal/day but I go nowhere on my weight. I get discouraged and drop down to 1700 calories or so (a hybrid amount between the tdee calc and the mfp app amount). I can usually stick to that amount but damn if I feel weak in the squat rack.
I want to get down to 185 (I'll go get a bodpod then, hopefully at 15%). Should I pick a lower kcal amount to get there and instead of progressively increasing lifts go with a static non increasing volume? Should I just say f it and stick with the .8xTDEE and stay on 5x5 (3x5 for squats)? halp
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Replies
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And I realize this technically isn't the proper subforum for losing but it should be obvious why I'm asking here.0
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When cutting I tend to cut back on volume and/or frequency but keep the intensity the same. It has helped me maintain my strength during cuts. Early on when I was still a newbie, I was able to make significant gains this way while cutting.0
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I switched to 3x5 for my cut but kept DL 1x5. I had still been making progress just slower until I became ill and feel I lost a little.
I might also double check on technique. Everybody is different as far as body mechanics and some people just do better with some exercises than others... but your numbers seem a little out of proportion to me. I am curious if you have a form issue with your bench and if you are using leg drive on OHP because those numbers aren't usually that close.
Also, sometimes I will have a lift that will just randomly suck one day and be fine the rest of the time. So one failed set can just be a crappy leg day.0 -
I think your consistency is the issue too. Considering you only started SL in December, you shouldn't have stalled out already but I'm guessing you maybe started too heavy as you're at 230 now? How long were you lifting before then? Maybe an intermediate programme would be better, if it was a while. Or a deload if it wasn't. I also find 5x5 too much while cutting, 3x5 should still have you making strength gains if you've only been at it for 3/4 months.
I think you really have to pick a calorie goal and stick at it for a consistent period. What about a few months at maintenance to get that bar moving and give you a mental break from dieting, then reassess?0 -
You dont have to change your routine like the 5x5 while cutting. You may be a bit weaker but still attack the weights hard.
On a cut, focus on your calories and make sure to get plenty of protein so you dont lose the muscle you worked so hard for.
Good Luck
-Jett0 -
That^^^When cutting I tend to cut back on volume and/or frequency but keep the intensity the same. It has helped me maintain my strength during cuts. Early on when I was still a newbie, I was able to make significant gains this way while cutting.
I scale back on the 5x5 programing to 3x5.
On your squat, you should not be failing on your first set then be able to get through the 2nd. Are you stretching/warming up prior to lifting? From your post it really sounds like you are lacking some consistency in there.
How often are you flopping calories back and forth?
The bolded part here makes me think two things:
1) Your form is questionable, so you're inconsistent between sets.
2) Your focus isn't locked in. I've had a number of times where my 1st or 2nd set was OK, but maybe a little bit of a struggle on the last rep - but was able to really focus on my 3rd - and it felt a lot easier than the others.
If you can, take a video of your lifts and post them. I thought there was a thread for form critique in the Eat, Train, Progress group, but I can't find it. In any case, put them up, so we (OK, Dope...) can look and see if there's anything you should/could/need to fix.0 -
I really think that it was a fluke from not being focused. I've failed before on sets but its always the last set. Yesterday did suprise me for sure.
Ok, I'm trying to compile a plan here based on all of the feedback I'm getting. Here's what I'm thinking:
1: lifts
Switch to 3x5 in all groups but keep trying to progessively increase weight. Accept the days where fail and try again on the next workout. Focus focus focus on form and mental concentration when in lifts. Aside from switching to 3x5, should I also perhaps deload all lifts a small percentage to get bring attention back to form?
2: diet
Pick a calorie goal and stick with it. I'm thinking the TDEEx80% or right around 2100. Without going all broscience, focus on getting macros in good shape i.e. don't eat 90% carbs or take in 1/4 of my calorie allowance in delicious bourbon barrel aged imperial stout. Don't get discouraged by scale and focus on taking measurements. Through all of this, I still haven't dropped a pants size which is one of the goals I was hoping for sooner than now.0 -
Eat more the night before or the day of your squat session. Compensate by eating less on the other days.0
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Also, depending on how hard you are struggling with the cut, getting a body scan (BodPod/dexascan/etc) to get a more accurate BF% and help you set your baseline cals is extremely helpful. Most tests are only $50 or less, worth the frustration of stalling for weeks because of a improperly set calorie level, or going too low and watching your lifting stats suffer. Guess it depends how serious you are/how much time you have to kill calibrating your calories through trial and error. Scales and those body-impedance measurements are wildly inaccurate. A couple hundred cal difference between what you should be cutting at and what you are doing now could over a few months. Just my two cents.0
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I just started a cut after what has been my first controlled bulking cycle. I'm finding that I need to cut down on some volume. I've only been on for a week and a half, so I'm still adjusting and still trying to dial things in...I have to say that it's a pretty amazing and substantial difference training in a surplus or even maintenance vs in a cut.0
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also - if you're feeling weak- and not enough juice in the tank- carb up before your workouts- grab a baked potato- or some oatmeal- or even a snickers bar.
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Snickers make a great pre workout snack.0 -
What works for alot of guys is fasting in the morning with light cardio like walking, slow ellipical, etc, eating a late lunch couple hours before the gym then a post WO low carb meal. this helps with partitioning and mixing in some fat burning with the lifts.0
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Notes from this morning's session
Workout A for sl5x5 so that means squat, bench, and row.
I've been doing the 1700 calories/day earlier in the week but switched back to the tdeex80% of 2150 as of the original post. This morning, I cooked those mini pillsbury cinnamon rolls for my boys and ate 2 of them approximately 1 hour before my session. 5 minutes before leaving the house, I downed 1 tbsp of cookie butter too. Hey, calories are calories right?
As before mentioned, I switched to 3x5 on squat. I claimed a rack and started stretching. Per the directions, i blew through all the warmup lifts pretty much as soon as the plates were loaded. I pumped out all three sets of 230 pretty easily it feels. More than anything, I think it's due to tyring to stay focused this time and placebo effect of eating all the carbs before hand but I see myself being still able to progress smoothly this way. Imagine that...you can lift better with fuel. Novel concept i know.
Anyways, knocked out the 5 sets of bench at 150 and then 5 sets of barbell rows at 115. I even supersetted 90 lb shrugs for the first 3 sets of the rows until some dude took the machine I was using.
Like I said...probably placebo effect but I'm making a commitment to stay at 2150 kcal and I'm going to make sure I allot enough calories to feed up before I go.0 -
i kept my workout the same when I transitioned from bulk to cut…however, for some of the exercises idid cut back on the weights a bit because my program calls for burn sets where you do 40 reps in as short a time and that is a lot of volume on a cut so I backed weights down about five pounds on burn sets….I kept everything else the same...0
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at 5-11 215 pounds your maintenance calories should be somewhere around 3000, so why aren't you cutting on closer to 2500??/ Or did I miss something?
I am a 5-10 183 pound male and my maintenance level is about 2750….0 -
williamgprice wrote: »Notes from this morning's session
Workout A for sl5x5 so that means squat, bench, and row.
I've been doing the 1700 calories/day earlier in the week but switched back to the tdeex80% of 2150 as of the original post. This morning, I cooked those mini pillsbury cinnamon rolls for my boys and ate 2 of them approximately 1 hour before my session. 5 minutes before leaving the house, I downed 1 tbsp of cookie butter too. Hey, calories are calories right?
As before mentioned, I switched to 3x5 on squat. I claimed a rack and started stretching. Per the directions, i blew through all the warmup lifts pretty much as soon as the plates were loaded. I pumped out all three sets of 230 pretty easily it feels. More than anything, I think it's due to tyring to stay focused this time and placebo effect of eating all the carbs before hand but I see myself being still able to progress smoothly this way. Imagine that...you can lift better with fuel. Novel concept i know.
Anyways, knocked out the 5 sets of bench at 150 and then 5 sets of barbell rows at 115. I even supersetted 90 lb shrugs for the first 3 sets of the rows until some dude took the machine I was using.
Like I said...probably placebo effect but I'm making a commitment to stay at 2150 kcal and I'm going to make sure I allot enough calories to feed up before I go.
cookie dough/cake/icecream/doughnut fueled workouts are the best.0 -
Damnit. I think I hurt myself. Finishing my first set at 235 and it didn't few right coming out of the hole. My lower back hurts immediately in the right hand side. I waited 5 minutes and attacked the second set but felt it right from the start to the point of being almost unbearable on the last rep. I waited 5 more minutes and tried one rep before I called it.
I'm doing my ohp now but I think I'm skipping deadlifts tonight with my back feeling this way.0 -
You only have one back. Take care of it.0
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You only have one back. Take care of it.
What if you make the beast with two backs?
All jokes aside, while in a deficit, you heal slower and are more likely to get injured. You're about my age and while we ain't old... we bounce back slower than we used to. Structured programs are meant to push but listen to your body.
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I had similar issues last year and honesty its just the hurdle before the next level. Im 216, 5'7, with body fat in the low teens. The problem i had was being able to complete a brutal heavy work out without gassing out hard from a 2000cal diet. My deficit cal deficit for my lean mass was massive kind of like yours only i solved my energy and fat loss plateau issues not with adding any callories, but by fine tuning my macros! Once i got my protein intake to about a gram per pound of body weight that solved a whole lot. Managing your fat and carbs is also key, but if you youtube "counting macros" you'll learn how to get your diet ironed out without adding calories. Homestly with all the chicken, broccoli, sweet potato, steel cut oats, and eggs i eat i honestly have to force feed myself to reach 2000cal and thats at over 200grams of protein! Lean" bro foods" fill you up and leave you well satisfied beyond your callororic value. I could break it down so much more, but just give your body what it needs in protein, fat, and carbs and the massive deficit won't hurt you.. On the contrary im building lean strength at my maximum rate and simultaneously cutting 2lbs a week.0
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That's the problem with cuts, it's an environment for injuries. I take it super easy with the sports when I'm cutting nowadays, and get it more from the calorie deficit. It's best to lift carefully, walk, swim, that kind of low impact stuff.
Unless you're really experienced save the heavy stuff for when you're on maintenance, or bulk. They are all completely different phases.0 -
Lower back pain like that could be a handful of things. It could be sciatica, pinched nerve, hosed up disc, muscle strain, etc.
Whatever it is, take at least a couple of weeks completely off of lifting. I'm dead serious about that. When you come back, deload - by a lot.
I had a similar problem a few months back - appears to have been nothing terribly serious, so I got lucky. I did what I suggested to you and I'm fine now. It made me reexamine my form on a squats and deadlifts - things are pretty well fixed and now I'm finding my lifts going up (somewhat slowly, but that's to be expected at this point). Like I said, I got lucky.
If things aren't feeling better in a week, see a doctor.0 -
Springfield1970 wrote: »That's the problem with cuts, it's an environment for injuries. I take it super easy with the sports when I'm cutting nowadays, and get it more from the calorie deficit. It's best to lift carefully, walk, swim, that kind of low impact stuff.
Unless you're really experienced save the heavy stuff for when you're on maintenance, or bulk. They are all completely different phases.
I definitely agree. When I finally get to my cut I'm cutting my volume way down. It's hard to lift hard in a deficit.0 -
williamgprice wrote: »Damnit. I think I hurt myself. Finishing my first set at 235 and it didn't few right coming out of the hole. My lower back hurts immediately in the right hand side. I waited 5 minutes and attacked the second set but felt it right from the start to the point of being almost unbearable on the last rep. I waited 5 more minutes and tried one rep before I called it.
I'm doing my ohp now but I think I'm skipping deadlifts tonight with my back feeling this way.
Yikes. Please rest that back. I didn't rest long enough after an injury, made it worse, and now I still can't deadlift 8 months later.0
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