80/20 Running and Threshold runs

joehempel · May 2015

Quick question:

How many "threshold" runs should I be doing during an 80/20 type plan?? I'm looking at my current half marathon plan, and so far, I really enjoy it. I don't feel burned out and when I'm done with my runs I feel more invigorated rather than beat.

However, it seems that with the exception of a couple fartlek or interval days, I'm not running to my threshold pace. Here's what a typical week looks like, but it happens to be next weeks schcedule (Week goes Monday-Sunday).

Easy Run: 30:00 - 10:00 cool down
Rest
Intervals: 10:00 warmup -- 4x5:00 w/ :75 cooldown -- 10 minute cool down
Easy Run: 30:00 - 10:00 cool down
Cross Train
Fartlek: 40:00 - varying intensity - 10:00 cool down
Long Run: 1:20:00 - 10:00 cool down

Sometimes the fartleks are replaced with hill repeats (usually twice a month).

I'm running the easy runs at around 155bpm which is my zone 2 HR, and 11:30 pace usually. My GOAL is 8:50 for a half marathon in August.

On my interval runs I'm running those between 7:45 and 8:10. The last interval training I did was today which was :90 cool down rather than :75 next week and the last interval I ran purposely an "easy" feel after the hard intervals which put me at 8:25 pace.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/773678949

Anyway, just go with the program or add some steady state runs at 9:00 or faster?

gdyment · May 2015

If you are 155bpm at 11:30 extend existing easy runs (even a bit slower) and add 1 or 2 more if you can find the time. Have you ever run 5k or 10k fast (ideally a race)?

joehempel · May 2015

I can extend the easy runs a bit, but adding them is impossible. I'm running 5 days a week and cross-training 1 with only 1 rest day....also work 3rd shift, so getting up early isn't exactly an option....and running at night in my neighborhood isn't either LOL.

As far as faster runs...I've done 4.5 miles at an 8:40 pace before a cool down, and ran a 5k at 8:30 with one mile having to stop for a bit (making it a 9:10 mile) due to a wardrobe malfunction....don't ask, lol.

gdyment · May 2015

Ok so assuming a 26 min 5k your paces seem ok for your hard runs. Maybe try your easy a touch quicker like in 9:30 to 10:30 range but should still feel easy... I'd be hunting for more mileage (extending existing or adding) in small pieces. 5 mins here, 5 there. Nothing wrong with going 1:45-2:00 on the long run either assuming your rest of the week mileage supports it.

joehempel · May 2015

I'm trying to work within HR zones and building a better aerobic base....my HR tends to creep into the mid-high 160's at the 10:30-9:30 pace. The 9:30 pace doesn't really "feel" all that hard, but my HR seems to say otherwise (I max in the 190's when I'm trying to max, generally it's around 186 during a race).

I will try to see what the HR does on tomorrows run....maybe let my HR creep to 165-168 at a 9:30-9:45 pace and cool down at the 11:30 pace. It's only a 30 minute run with a 10 cool down. Maybe I'll extend it to 40 and get that extra mile. The mileage for the long runs are supporting the current mileage and increasing accordingly.

Oh, looking at my interval run today I noticed that my HR averaged at 171 with an 8:29 pace, so that was nice to see it be able to recover a bit like that, it didn't touch 180. With that data I'm hoping that maybe tomorrow my HR will settle in to a low 160 with a 9:45-10:00 pace.

Thanks!!

mwyvr · May 2015

If you don't mind, how old are you Joe?

joehempel · May 2015

I'm 36.

mwyvr · May 2015

Thanks - I was just curious where you fall on Dr. Phil's MAF 180 formula scale - 180 - 36 + 5 (assuming you've been training + progressing for quite a while) = 149 for your "Maximum Aerobic Function" heart rate. I know, that sounds incredibly low.

Maffetone is a proponent of putting in big training distances at such HRs. Among the said benefits are lower rates of injury, and, supposedly, training your body to adapt to fat as fuel. I easily buy the lower rates of injury as recovery from these types of runs feels very rapid. Left to my own devices I tend to run much faster.

Therein lies the rub; it's hard to adapt to running slower for most of one's training. That said you can probably gain an idea of whether it is working within just a few weeks.

I think the idea of running consistently at a specific HR +/- one or two beats (rather than in a zone) makes a lot of sense if one wants to compare weekly testing runs; you should be able to see steady progress for some time. Indeed there's a test for that, the MAF Test.

Anyway... thought I'd toss this out there in case you hadn't run across Phil Maffetone's work yet.

joehempel · May 2015

I have....and I don't go by it because my HR isn't typical of any formulas....my max should be 184, but it's (last time tested) 196, and so I just go by the typical HR zones over at Training Peaks.

My HR also has a high exercise level so that has to be taken into consideration. I walk for more than a mile and my HR climbs to the 130's....then settles in there.

I use my HR in order to go slower, I've been trying this for a little more than a month and I've seen gains, when I started, even though I could run a 26 minute 5k my HR got to the same level after a 3 mile run at low paces....now it's finally settling in at faster paces.

155 is really about where I need it to be for my zone 2 runs.

joehempel · May 2015

Went out to attempt a little run at a harder pace than my normal "easy runs". Ended up going for a 10k jog and started at 9:40, 9:24, 9:18, 9:10, then cooling back down at 9:25, and 11:01.

It was definitely a harder run than I wanted and the first 2 miles are a lot of up hill so my HR got up there even at a slow pace.

Doing a bit more research I'm going to stick to what I'm doing....there are folks that are training for a sub 7 training in the mid 9's and things like that. I just need to trust the system and get out of my own head I think.

mwyvr · May 2015

Given I'm 53 I find the 180 formula for me results in what feels like an impossibly slow pace. I can do it but it isn't comfortable at all, so I've bumped mine up a bit. I still find it a mental challenge to run slower but currently aim for 139HR +/- 2BPM running 6:20km splits more or less. Still not sure if it's right for me, but it does feel good running longer distances at that steady HR. Will give it a few more weeks to evaluate but also going to do some faster tempo runs in between.

joehempel · May 2015

I should mention today was on VERY tired legs too. I've been non stop running and being on my feet....plus I coach track so I'm always running with the kids and our championships were Tuesday + my normal run....so yeah, this was understandably hard....I forgot to take that into cosideration.

I'm so glad tomorrow is just teaching my Insanity class before hill repeats on Saturday and my Long run on Sunday....looking forward to just a long slow plod Sunday. I listen to audiobooks on those days when I run, quite relaxing.

gdyment · May 2015

Bulk of my runs are 115-132 HR. A 10k race would be 160. Time on your feet is king - never feel like you're "not working hard enough". The whole point of 80/20 is the easy is really easy so you can get out the next day, and the next, and the next, etc. It takes years of consistent running to make long term changes (and not get injured either).

mwyvr · May 2015

I've definitely noticed the low HR training runs allow for rapid recovery... I can usually tell by my resting heart rate in the am what I did the day before and how I'll feel running that day. Today will be another good day.

So far injury free since starting again last September. 40 more pounds to drop, it'll be nice to stop running with the equivalent of a toddler strapped to me. I started running in September with the equivalent of a small teenager fixed to my body.

joehempel · May 2015

4 years injury free here. But I started at 240 lbs. 164 now

scottb81 · May 2015

I would agree that if you can extend the easy runs closer to an hour that you will get faster improvement. In general, easy running gives faster improvements as you increase volume to the maximum you can recover from each day.

This is a good read. http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur Lydiard.pdf

It sounds like your coaching is giving you the effect of a 2d run each day which is very good too, as long as you feel good to run again the next day.

lporter229 · May 2015

Question for those in the know (not to hijack your thread, but kind of related):

As you run for a longer period of time, your heart rate tends to drift upwards. Should you slow your pace to keep a lower heart rate or should you maintain your current pace and just allow it to drift upwards or does it matter?

For example, on my last run, over the course of 8.5 miles my HR drifted from and average of 137 to 143 at a steady pace. My goal was to keep it under 142. It didn't seem like a big deal, but I am wondering at what point I should slow down or is it okay to go out of my zone a bit near the end of my run?

joehempel · May 2015

I've learned its best to keep it in zone. So slow down if need be.

Great read on the PDF! I'm going to extend my mid-week easy runs by 20-30 minutes.

Now that track season is over, I think it will be easier on my legs to run those times. I'm about 25 mpm 3 weeks into training. On June 1 I'm switching to a marathon plan to run in the fall. So more time on the feet will be coming from that too

mwyvr · May 2015

joehempel wrote: »

4 years injury free here. But I started at 240 lbs. 164 now

Similar here, started at 255. 5' 7", not quite sure where my end will be but aiming for 155 and will evaluate when closer.

Injury knocked me out of running originally and was the start of my weight gain, but not the prime reason. I fear injury sidelining me so am listening to my body carefully.

To the question about slower constant heart rate runs, I figure the word constant is the key and try to keep it on the button, but no more than +2bpm as an excursion. Hard to do on hilly runs for sure.

joehempel · May 2015

I. Hate. Intervals -- 3x6:00 Threshold Pace -- hills -- managed to keep under 9 up steep hills...partially downhill, mostly up....cool down was uphill too.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/776381599

80/20 Running and Threshold runs

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