Can't build muscle in a caloric deficit - why?

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balboasuze
balboasuze Posts: 7 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
I'm not challenging that this is correct, or anything. But I'm very much a "why?" person, so can someone explain why this is the case?

I assume it is something to do with the body's ability to convert body fat to lean muscle, but I'm struggling to find explanations on other websites which don't look a bit like BS.

What is the distinguishing factor of eating at maintenance/over maintenance which makes building muscle possible? Why is it possible for "newbies" to build "some" muscle in a caloric deficit? Is that even true?

Thanks, guys!
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Replies

  • DeguelloTex
    DeguelloTex Posts: 6,652 Member
    edited August 2015
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    I'm going to go with the idea that muscle is at least more expensive to maintain and if the body is in a deficit, the more useful survival trait is to use metabolized fat to keep the body going through what the body thinks may be a famine rather than to build up something that's costlier to maintain while in a time of shortage.

    As far as newbie gains, it's low-hanging fruit the marginal utility of which might more often provide a survival benefit. You don't have to outrun the tiger, you just have to outrun your tribesman.

    But, it's early and I didn't sleep much, so there's that.

  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    Should be interesting. Timescale needs to be considered. I don't see why you couldn't build muscle in a 4 hour period of calorie and protein surplus even if the day had a calorie deficit - as long as you have body fat to burn in the other 20 hours and enough protein to avoid catabolising muscle.

    Isn't that the idea behind Leangains intermittent fasting protocol ?

    I suspect the broscience will drown out any real understanding, but good luck.
  • blackcoffeeandcherrypie
    blackcoffeeandcherrypie Posts: 486 Member
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    I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
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    Every action needs an energy input, that is true for everything from walking to building muscle.
    It needs energy to do it, which you already have less of than your body needs to stay at the weight you are, nevermind the extra energy needed to build more and sustain it.

    Also your body can't convert fat into muscle at all.
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
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    blackcoffeeandcherrypie wrote: »
    I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(
    It's good for keeping the muscle you have while in a deficit, no wasted time.
  • Clarewho
    Clarewho Posts: 494 Member
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    blackcoffeeandcherrypie wrote: »
    I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(

    I don't think you're wasting your time as such. B/c even if you're not building, the strength work you're doing will help preserve lean body mass so you should lose more fat less muscle. Once you reach your weight goal you can hopefully then build on the work youve been doing.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
    edited August 2015
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    Muscle gain in fat policemen - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463 20% deficit, 12 weeeks

    "gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate."
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
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    yarwell wrote: »
    Muscle gain in fat policemen - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463 20% deficit, 12 weeeks

    "gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate."

    Full study: http://eurekamag.com/pdf/003/003414527.pdf
  • Sued0nim
    Sued0nim Posts: 17,456 Member
    edited August 2015
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    Hypocaloric? That means 1000-1200
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
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    I just skimmed it but it looks like their pre-study bf% assessments look a bit low for people at 100 kg average, unless all guys they measured are 6+ feet tall and/or former football players or something.

    And I just saw they used calipers to measure it.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    rabbitjb wrote: »
    Hypocaloric? That means 1000-1200

    Nope, It means less than maintenance.

    Eucaloric = maintenance
    Hypercaloric = overfeeding

  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
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    My understanding is no matter the amount of lifting and protein you eat, if you're regularly in a caloric deficit your body canibilizes both body fat and body protein. Your hypothalamus is sending signals that say "hey guys, it's time to break you cells down to feed the needs of the heart and intestines, sorry not sorry. They're more important." Yes, if you eat a lot of protein and lift you'll shift that percentage towards mostly fat, but you're still losing some muscle fibers. A healthy hypothalamus won't at the same time send the signal "hey muscles, it's all good, we've got lots if extra calories. Go ahead and use precious energy to split and divide." It can't send both messages at once, is my understanding. Don't know I that's bro science or not. In a deficit the muscle fibers you have might become more efficient working with each other to accomplish a task you're asking them to do, but actually creating new muscle fibers is much more difficult when your body is working hard to maintain the heart and other essential muscles it needs.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    Another black swan study "In obese, protein-depleted surgical patients net protein anabolism and clinical efficacy can be achieved with hypocaloric, high-protein feeding. Abundant endogenous fat stores provide obligatory energy." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3098083
  • balboasuze
    balboasuze Posts: 7 Member
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    @Yarwell in your opinion are these studies evidencing "newbie gains" or are they demonstrating that the notion of "no muscle gain in caloric deficit" is false?
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    They are demonstrating muscle gain in a daily caloric deficit. So the latter for sure.
  • Pinnacle_IAO
    Pinnacle_IAO Posts: 608 Member
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    yarwell wrote: »
    Should be interesting. Timescale needs to be considered. I don't see why you couldn't build muscle in a 4 hour period of calorie and protein surplus even if the day had a calorie deficit - as long as you have body fat to burn in the other 20 hours and enough protein to avoid catabolising muscle.

    Isn't that the idea behind Leangains intermittent fasting protocol ?

    I suspect the broscience will drown out any real understanding, but good luck.
    Hey...HEY! :*
    Leave bro-science to the experts!

    As I was saying...it's hard, because in most cases, the energy for building muscles in depleted in most efforts to lose weight and eat in a calorie deficit. It's like driving to Canada and Mexico at the same time.
    There are some who propose that it's possible to trick your body with meal timing.

    Some guys claim to have gotten results as stated above. The best I could ever do is maintain some muscle while losing weight, so I am not one such guy. Good luck to you!
  • nordlead2005
    nordlead2005 Posts: 1,303 Member
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    yarwell wrote: »
    They are demonstrating muscle gain in a daily caloric deficit. So the latter for sure.
    When there are sufficient fat stores. It would be interesting to see a study done on athletes with not much body fat to lose.
  • msf74
    msf74 Posts: 3,498 Member
    edited August 2015
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    In my (limited) understanding it is because of the way your body tends to partition calories in the face of underfeeding (levels of bodyfat can influence this I believe which leads to the scenario where overfat beginners do experience some increase in muscle mass over the short term despite a calorie deficit.)

    More info here:

    Calorie Partitioning
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    nordlead2005 wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    They are demonstrating muscle gain in a daily caloric deficit. So the latter for sure.
    When there are sufficient fat stores. It would be interesting to see a study done on athletes with not much body fat to lose.

    Indeed, however why would you put low body fat athletes on a hypocaloric diet :-)

    I think we can see the principle of post-prandial muscle gain from the evidence. Here's another that shows a reduction of 15 - 30% in muscle gain during the intervention, but not elimination of said gains "Whey protein supplementation preserves postprandial myofibrillar protein synthesis during short-term energy restriction in overweight and obese adults" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644344 (Obese again).

    The "anabolic threshold" may need to be exceeded by a meal, and protein type / quality is a factor, but it makes sense that in a few hours with a surplus of calories and amino acids that the protein building would proceed.

    So do we have evidence for a) lean subjects or b) something that happens early in a diet but not say 6 months later ?
  • snowflakesav
    snowflakesav Posts: 647 Member
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    Does anybody else not observe this in their own experience? I find that the shape of my body has really changed. I have worked on building strength in my hips and increasing fast twitch recruitment. There is no question that major changes happened in speed and strength. I was very fit with normal BMI when I started the weight loss so we really can't call this newby gains.

    I am a cardio bunny so the muscular changes I am seeking may be very different than the goals of someone who is weight training. I lost 16 pounds. A percentage of that was surely muscle that was used to carry all that fat around.

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