Can't build muscle in a caloric deficit - why?
balboasuze
Posts: 7 Member
I'm not challenging that this is correct, or anything. But I'm very much a "why?" person, so can someone explain why this is the case?
I assume it is something to do with the body's ability to convert body fat to lean muscle, but I'm struggling to find explanations on other websites which don't look a bit like BS.
What is the distinguishing factor of eating at maintenance/over maintenance which makes building muscle possible? Why is it possible for "newbies" to build "some" muscle in a caloric deficit? Is that even true?
Thanks, guys!
I assume it is something to do with the body's ability to convert body fat to lean muscle, but I'm struggling to find explanations on other websites which don't look a bit like BS.
What is the distinguishing factor of eating at maintenance/over maintenance which makes building muscle possible? Why is it possible for "newbies" to build "some" muscle in a caloric deficit? Is that even true?
Thanks, guys!
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I'm going to go with the idea that muscle is at least more expensive to maintain and if the body is in a deficit, the more useful survival trait is to use metabolized fat to keep the body going through what the body thinks may be a famine rather than to build up something that's costlier to maintain while in a time of shortage.
As far as newbie gains, it's low-hanging fruit the marginal utility of which might more often provide a survival benefit. You don't have to outrun the tiger, you just have to outrun your tribesman.
But, it's early and I didn't sleep much, so there's that.
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Should be interesting. Timescale needs to be considered. I don't see why you couldn't build muscle in a 4 hour period of calorie and protein surplus even if the day had a calorie deficit - as long as you have body fat to burn in the other 20 hours and enough protein to avoid catabolising muscle.
Isn't that the idea behind Leangains intermittent fasting protocol ?
I suspect the broscience will drown out any real understanding, but good luck.0 -
I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(0
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Every action needs an energy input, that is true for everything from walking to building muscle.
It needs energy to do it, which you already have less of than your body needs to stay at the weight you are, nevermind the extra energy needed to build more and sustain it.
Also your body can't convert fat into muscle at all.0 -
It's good for keeping the muscle you have while in a deficit, no wasted time.blackcoffeeandcherrypie wrote: »I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(
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blackcoffeeandcherrypie wrote: »I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(
I don't think you're wasting your time as such. B/c even if you're not building, the strength work you're doing will help preserve lean body mass so you should lose more fat less muscle. Once you reach your weight goal you can hopefully then build on the work youve been doing.0 -
Muscle gain in fat policemen - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463 20% deficit, 12 weeeks
"gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate."0 -
Muscle gain in fat policemen - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463 20% deficit, 12 weeeks
"gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate."
Full study: http://eurekamag.com/pdf/003/003414527.pdf0 -
Hypocaloric? That means 1000-12000
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I just skimmed it but it looks like their pre-study bf% assessments look a bit low for people at 100 kg average, unless all guys they measured are 6+ feet tall and/or former football players or something.
And I just saw they used calipers to measure it.0 -
My understanding is no matter the amount of lifting and protein you eat, if you're regularly in a caloric deficit your body canibilizes both body fat and body protein. Your hypothalamus is sending signals that say "hey guys, it's time to break you cells down to feed the needs of the heart and intestines, sorry not sorry. They're more important." Yes, if you eat a lot of protein and lift you'll shift that percentage towards mostly fat, but you're still losing some muscle fibers. A healthy hypothalamus won't at the same time send the signal "hey muscles, it's all good, we've got lots if extra calories. Go ahead and use precious energy to split and divide." It can't send both messages at once, is my understanding. Don't know I that's bro science or not. In a deficit the muscle fibers you have might become more efficient working with each other to accomplish a task you're asking them to do, but actually creating new muscle fibers is much more difficult when your body is working hard to maintain the heart and other essential muscles it needs.0
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Another black swan study "In obese, protein-depleted surgical patients net protein anabolism and clinical efficacy can be achieved with hypocaloric, high-protein feeding. Abundant endogenous fat stores provide obligatory energy." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30980830
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@Yarwell in your opinion are these studies evidencing "newbie gains" or are they demonstrating that the notion of "no muscle gain in caloric deficit" is false?0
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They are demonstrating muscle gain in a daily caloric deficit. So the latter for sure.0
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Hey...HEY!Should be interesting. Timescale needs to be considered. I don't see why you couldn't build muscle in a 4 hour period of calorie and protein surplus even if the day had a calorie deficit - as long as you have body fat to burn in the other 20 hours and enough protein to avoid catabolising muscle.
Isn't that the idea behind Leangains intermittent fasting protocol ?
I suspect the broscience will drown out any real understanding, but good luck.
Leave bro-science to the experts!
As I was saying...it's hard, because in most cases, the energy for building muscles in depleted in most efforts to lose weight and eat in a calorie deficit. It's like driving to Canada and Mexico at the same time.
There are some who propose that it's possible to trick your body with meal timing.
Some guys claim to have gotten results as stated above. The best I could ever do is maintain some muscle while losing weight, so I am not one such guy. Good luck to you!
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In my (limited) understanding it is because of the way your body tends to partition calories in the face of underfeeding (levels of bodyfat can influence this I believe which leads to the scenario where overfat beginners do experience some increase in muscle mass over the short term despite a calorie deficit.)
More info here:
Calorie Partitioning0 -
nordlead2005 wrote: »
Indeed, however why would you put low body fat athletes on a hypocaloric diet :-)
I think we can see the principle of post-prandial muscle gain from the evidence. Here's another that shows a reduction of 15 - 30% in muscle gain during the intervention, but not elimination of said gains "Whey protein supplementation preserves postprandial myofibrillar protein synthesis during short-term energy restriction in overweight and obese adults" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644344 (Obese again).
The "anabolic threshold" may need to be exceeded by a meal, and protein type / quality is a factor, but it makes sense that in a few hours with a surplus of calories and amino acids that the protein building would proceed.
So do we have evidence for a) lean subjects or b) something that happens early in a diet but not say 6 months later ?0 -
Does anybody else not observe this in their own experience? I find that the shape of my body has really changed. I have worked on building strength in my hips and increasing fast twitch recruitment. There is no question that major changes happened in speed and strength. I was very fit with normal BMI when I started the weight loss so we really can't call this newby gains.
I am a cardio bunny so the muscular changes I am seeking may be very different than the goals of someone who is weight training. I lost 16 pounds. A percentage of that was surely muscle that was used to carry all that fat around.0 -
My next question was/is going to be "if you can't build muscle in a caloric deficit, how does this explain success at a progressive weight lifting regime while losing weight by calorie restriction".
To use myself as an example: I'm definitely in calorie deficit because I've lost an average of a pound a week for some time now. I've been lifting for a couple of months, have seen changes to my body - which I've assumed to be the result of reducing fat over the top of the muscles I already had. I can now lift things that I wouldn't have been able to even LOOK at a couple of months ago. How is that explained, if you assume that "no muscle gain in caloric deficit" is true? (Disclaimer: this is a genuine question - I'm not fishing for people to tell me that I've gained muscle...) Does muscular strength not equal muscular gain?
But maybe this is the MFP equivalent of finding something which looks like a wasp's nest and thinking "hey, I wonder if I should kick this"...0 -
balboasuze wrote: »My next question was/is going to be "if you can't build muscle in a caloric deficit, how does this explain success at a progressive weight lifting regime while losing weight by calorie restriction".
To use myself as an example: I'm definitely in calorie deficit because I've lost an average of a pound a week for some time now. I've been lifting for a couple of months, have seen changes to my body - which I've assumed to be the result of reducing fat over the top of the muscles I already had. I can now lift things that I wouldn't have been able to even LOOK at a couple of months ago. How is that explained, if you assume that "no muscle gain in caloric deficit" is true? (Disclaimer: this is a genuine question - I'm not fishing for people to tell me that I've gained muscle...) Does muscular strength not equal muscular gain?
But maybe this is the MFP equivalent of finding something which looks like a wasp's nest and thinking "hey, I wonder if I should kick this"...
Yes, you can get stronger/more efficient without actually adding additional muscle cell fibers.0 -
KICK IT!balboasuze wrote: »My next question was/is going to be "if you can't build muscle in a caloric deficit, how does this explain success at a progressive weight lifting regime while losing weight by calorie restriction".
To use myself as an example: I'm definitely in calorie deficit because I've lost an average of a pound a week for some time now. I've been lifting for a couple of months, have seen changes to my body - which I've assumed to be the result of reducing fat over the top of the muscles I already had. I can now lift things that I wouldn't have been able to even LOOK at a couple of months ago. How is that explained, if you assume that "no muscle gain in caloric deficit" is true? (Disclaimer: this is a genuine question - I'm not fishing for people to tell me that I've gained muscle...) Does muscular strength not equal muscular gain?
But maybe this is the MFP equivalent of finding something which looks like a wasp's nest and thinking "hey, I wonder if I should kick this"...
I always kick any kind of nest housing stinging insects...
Anyway, guys starting out can make muscle gains, but the value in the long run is muscle preservation and overall fitness.
Maybe somebody into "Leangains" could advise you.
I read up on the calorie cycling and meal/exercise timing and feel it produced some results in muscle retention, but some guys have claimed huge results with actual gains in a calorie deficit.
I just don't know...
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nordlead2005 wrote: »
Indeed, however why would you put low body fat athletes on a hypocaloric diet :-)
science!! But athlete may have been the wrong choice. Why not start with someone ~17% body fat (upper side of fit) and see what happens, rather than starting with +25% (obese). Of course, accuracy in measuring body fat and muscle mass may make a study on the lower end hard.0 -
I like simpler answers.
Fat isn't converted into muscle. Muscle and fat are two different things.
Anything that naturally physically grows needs something extra--plants, animals, people-- Muscle needs a caloric surplus and can't grow from air.
However hypertrophy newbie gains are different. That happens when the stimuli (lifting) is completely new, and so your body forces itself to adapt to it. This -can- be possible with a SMALL deficit, but progress with a deficit will most likely be strength gains. Newbie gains are more likely to happen to someone who previously had a sedentary lifestyle and/or is overweight.
Muscle =/= Strength
Deficits on a newbie will result in muscle maintenance along with fat loss, which in a lot if cases looks like the person has gained muscle.0 -
balboasuze wrote: »I'm not challenging that this is correct, or anything. But I'm very much a "why?" person, so can someone explain why this is the case?
I assume it is something to do with the body's ability to convert body fat to lean muscle, but I'm struggling to find explanations on other websites which don't look a bit like BS.
What is the distinguishing factor of eating at maintenance/over maintenance which makes building muscle possible? Why is it possible for "newbies" to build "some" muscle in a caloric deficit? Is that even true?
Thanks, guys!
the same way you can't "build" fat in a deficit...you can't build something from nothing...you can't really be in a catabolic state and be anabolic...gaining muscle or fat would be anabolic.
you can become much stronger without putting on actual muscle mass, even in a deficit...and many people mistake the revealing of existing muscle by cutting fat to be building muscle...it is not...the individual is simply cutting fat and revealing what was already there. lifting while in a deficit helps to preserve that muscle mass while in a cut so you look awesome and ripped and whatnot when you're done.
also, people mistake "pump" for building muscle...pump is just fluid in your muscles which in fact will increase the size of the muscle, but you're not actually building new muscle...it's just fluid. This explains why a lot of people take measurements and note a growth and insist they are building muscle...but any "growth" will quickly stall because, again, it's just water.0 -
Another black swan study "In obese, protein-depleted surgical patients net protein anabolism and clinical efficacy can be achieved with hypocaloric, high-protein feeding. Abundant endogenous fat stores provide obligatory energy." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3098083
Do me a solid and save me the clicking - are they describing a PSFM-like protocol?0 -
balboasuze wrote: »
the body's ability to convert body fat to lean muscle
<boggle>
Exactly what the h-e-double-hockeysticks is being taught about how the body works in schools these days?
The body *never* "converts fat to muscle"
Fat is converted to *energy*.
Energy is *used by* muscle (among other things).
The body turns *Proteins* into muscle.
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SergeantSausage wrote: »balboasuze wrote: »
the body's ability to convert body fat to lean muscle
<boggle>
Exactly what the h-e-double-hockeysticks is being taught about how the body works in schools these days?
The body *never* "converts fat to muscle"
Fat is converted to *energy*.
Energy is *used by* muscle (among other things).
The body turns *Proteins* into muscle.
Lol. I don't understand how people really think fat cells will magically turn into muscle cells. They're two different things. It's not that simple, but it's really not that difficult to understand.
OP - if you're wondering if it's possible to gain LBM while in a caloric deficit the answer is yes - lean body mass can increase if your ratio of fat-free mass to fat mass is increased. Therefore, if while in a caloric deficit you lose fat-free mass (muscle) slower than you lose fat mass, you'll have an increase.0 -
it's defenately not a waste of time .. while your in a deficit and eating high protien you retain your muscle mas which is very good thing.stevencloser wrote: »
It's good for keeping the muscle you have while in a deficit, no wasted time.blackcoffeeandcherrypie wrote: »I also am curious about this. I have been eating a heck of a lot of protein and doing weights, hoping to build some muscle but if it's not possible in a deficit then I may be wasting my time :-(
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