Why so many trainers suck
Azdak
Posts: 8,281 Member
Stumbled across this website this morning which posed the question: "Can weight lifting be considered cardio?"
54 answers from "certified" trainers. Not one of them correct. Or at least not one of them showed evidence of an understanding of basic exercise physiology. And not one knew enough to point out that "circuit training" is not really "strength training".
But they looked fabulous.
https://www.sharecare.com/health/exercise-for-increasing-cardiovascular-endurance/weightlifting-increase-cardiovascular-endurance
54 answers from "certified" trainers. Not one of them correct. Or at least not one of them showed evidence of an understanding of basic exercise physiology. And not one knew enough to point out that "circuit training" is not really "strength training".
But they looked fabulous.
https://www.sharecare.com/health/exercise-for-increasing-cardiovascular-endurance/weightlifting-increase-cardiovascular-endurance
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Oh my. They are providing interesting perspectives on rest periods and multi tasking. I did watch a guy last week take an 11 minute rest in between bench sets. He did 5 reps of a weight, then sat for 11 minutes, got up once to check the weights, back down to bench for 4 more reps. I wonder if he waited too long between sets? IDK. . .seems there is quite a bit of just poorly worded answers in the shareware link. Maybe it is just confusing to the elite trainers what cardio and strength training ought to be and what they are describing. You are correct they all look good.0
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To be fair, they didn't say strength training, the said weight lifting, and in circuits you are lifting weights. And before anyone can say that weight lifting means X, bodybuilders are considered weight lifters by most people and they don't lift for strength.
And I think it would be more accurate to title your post "why most articles about fitness suck" because it's really about went the author/publication wanted to present, not any actual reporting0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »Oh my. They are providing interesting perspectives on rest periods and multi tasking. I did watch a guy last week take an 11 minute rest in between bench sets. He did 5 reps of a weight, then sat for 11 minutes, got up once to check the weights, back down to bench for 4 more reps. I wonder if he waited too long between sets? IDK. . .seems there is quite a bit of just poorly worded answers in the shareware link. Maybe it is just confusing to the elite trainers what cardio and strength training ought to be and what they are describing. You are correct they all look good.
What was he lifting? And do you think it was close to his maximum?
Power lifters may wait upto a half hour between lifts or sets.0 -
To be fair, they didn't say strength training, the said weight lifting, and in circuits you are lifting weights. And before anyone can say that weight lifting means X, bodybuilders are considered weight lifters by most people and they don't lift for strength.
And I think it would be more accurate to title your post "why most articles about fitness suck" because it's really about went the author/publication wanted to present, not any actual reporting
Sorting through biased articles and self promoting trainers can be a full time job. It's rare to find useful info that's not lost in a sea of fluff or bias. Just read an article by a power lifter concerning 5x5 programs where they guy just couldn't stick to the point that starter 5x5 programs are not ideal for power lifting and constantly bashed the programs and people promoting them as just plain wrong. There were also many points where he misrepresented what's offered as far as information. In the end I got a few lines of nice information on powerlifting vs other modes of strength training but 80% of the article was aggressive defense of the authors agenda at the expense of in my mind some credibility.0 -
To be fair, they didn't say strength training, the said weight lifting, and in circuits you are lifting weights. And before anyone can say that weight lifting means X, bodybuilders are considered weight lifters by most people and they don't lift for strength.
And I think it would be more accurate to title your post "why most articles about fitness suck" because it's really about went the author/publication wanted to present, not any actual reporting
It was a simple question that 54 "fitness experts" answered. My observation is based on the answers and how they reflect the (lack of) knowledge of those doing the answering. Even if they only chose those answering a certain way, that's still 54 boobs.
Based on the answers, I think the meaning of the question was clear to those responding. Almost a third or more responding by saying that any increased heart rate--whether from running or heavy squats--had the same cardio effect. Regardless of the question, that's absolute nonsense.
Here was the first answer out of the box:The heart’s job is to pump oxygen, nutrients, and energy to our working muscles via the blood, regardless of the type of activity. With that said any activity that increases your breathing rate and requires the heart to pump and circulate more blood, such as weight lifting, will provide benefits similar to those from cardio training.
I suppose one could argue the point that this guy was referring to "cardio movements using weights", but I think the meaning was pretty clear.
Another answer;Other great strength workouts like TABATA utilize basic strength moves in 20 second intervals with 10 second rest periods to keep the heart rate high and benefit the cardiovascular system.
Tabata strength moves now?
A couple of people got close to describing classic circuit training -- e.g. alternating true strength exercises with cardio intervals -- but they didn't give any indication they understood the underlying science.
Maybe the answers were too short for the commenters to express themselves clearly and with more nuance. So I am willing to admit that, in a longer conversation, some would have come off a lot better.
My overall point is that someone reading that list of comments would come away with virtually no useful accurate information and would be pushed in the wrong direction by a lot of misinformation. And that's a black eye against the industry in general. A lot of these folks had "elite trainer" certifications. How is the average client supposed to be able to pick someone knowledgeable?0 -
The first trainers answer was pretty technical correct
Please explain how increasing breathing and heart rate is not similar to cardio.
In any way, how is that not cardio?
I have hired three trainers over two years and had great results.
Nothing at all like your perception of a black eye to the vocation. Reading an article on trainers is a bit different than getting to know a few and setting goals with them, and then teaching them.
My experience sharply contrasts your summary.0 -
In your undoubtedly expert opinion, what is the "correct" answer to that question? Perhaps sharing your vast scientific knowledge on this subject with the MFP community would be more helpful than just posting an article you think is useless and claiming that most trainers "suck".0
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There's aerobic respiration and anaerobic respiration. Aerobic utilizes oxygen to facilitate energy production.
Now if one's breathing rate and blood flow can't supply enough oxygen to the muscles, then the body turns to anaerobic respiration. At this point the body produces lactic acid to facilitate energy production. About 1-3 minutes of sustained energy is provided by the lactic acid production.
Lactic acid build up is the burn that people feel in anaerobic exercise routines. Short break and one can do another set.
Lactic acid build up isn't apparent in aerobic respiration which is why it can be done over duration. The body does adapt and become more effective at lactic acid production as one gets fitter though.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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That would make entirely too much sense_bellator_ wrote: »In your undoubtedly expert opinion, what is the "correct" answer to that question? Perhaps sharing your vast scientific knowledge on this subject with the MFP community would be more helpful than just posting an article you think is useless and claiming that most trainers "suck".
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KittensMaster wrote: »The first trainers answer was pretty technical correct
Please explain how increasing breathing and heart rate is not similar to cardio.
In any way, how is that not cardio?
I have hired three trainers over two years and had great results.
Nothing at all like your perception of a black eye to the vocation. Reading an article on trainers is a bit different than getting to know a few and setting goals with them, and then teaching them.
My experience sharply contrasts your summary.
I'm working my usual 12-hour Sunday shift today and have limited time for detailed responses.
I have answered this question numerous times over the years, but not for a while. This is an article I wrote concerning HRMs and strength training which explains some of the basics, although it doesn't address this topic directly.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
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KittensMaster wrote: »The first trainers answer was pretty technical correct
Please explain how increasing breathing and heart rate is not similar to cardio.
In any way, how is that not cardio?
I have hired three trainers over two years and had great results.
Nothing at all like your perception of a black eye to the vocation. Reading an article on trainers is a bit different than getting to know a few and setting goals with them, and then teaching them.
My experience sharply contrasts your summary.
I'm working my usual 12-hour Sunday shift today and have limited time for detailed responses.
I have answered this question numerous times over the years, but not for a while. This is an article I wrote concerning HRMs and strength training which explains some of the basics, although it doesn't address this topic directly.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
Therein lies the problem. They only for a paragraph or two to supply an answer that could be quickly digested by the average reader. Their answer may not have satisfied us, but it was never meant for us. The answer Niner just provided may be technically correct, but don't nobody want to read that. And them that did didn't understand it.
It's like that everywhere tho, not just fitness. It's similar how we attempt to select our political representatives based a quick sound bites on complicated issues.0 -
KittensMaster wrote: »The first trainers answer was pretty technical correct
Please explain how increasing breathing and heart rate is not similar to cardio.
In any way, how is that not cardio?
I have hired three trainers over two years and had great results.
Nothing at all like your perception of a black eye to the vocation. Reading an article on trainers is a bit different than getting to know a few and setting goals with them, and then teaching them.
My experience sharply contrasts your summary.
I'm working my usual 12-hour Sunday shift today and have limited time for detailed responses.
I have answered this question numerous times over the years, but not for a while. This is an article I wrote concerning HRMs and strength training which explains some of the basics, although it doesn't address this topic directly.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
Therein lies the problem. They only for a paragraph or two to supply an answer that could be quickly digested by the average reader. Their answer may not have satisfied us, but it was never meant for us. The answer Niner just provided may be technically correct, but don't nobody want to read that. And them that did didn't understand it.
It's like that everywhere tho, not just fitness. It's similar how we attempt to select our political representatives based a quick sound bites on complicated issues.
As always, I appreciate and respect your perspective. Having been in that position numerous times, however, I have never written anything misleading or incorrect just for the sake of brevity. I do feel this is one area where fitness people are horribly ignorant, so I have my own confirmation bias. I wasn't even looking up this topic--I was researching something else and happened on this by accident. It was just a shock to see 54 trainers with degrees and advanced certs and not one could answer the question accurately.
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As always, I appreciate and respect your perspective. Having been in that position numerous times, however, I have never written anything misleading or incorrect just for the sake of brevity. I do feel this is one area where fitness people are horribly ignorant, so I have my own confirmation bias. I wasn't even looking up this topic--I was researching something else and happened on this by accident. It was just a shock to see 54 trainers with degrees and advanced certs and not one could answer the question accurately.
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The reason they don't say it's cardio is because of heart rate and the type of metabolic rate your body goes into. I have been doing a program called 500 every other week with strength building.
On your split you do 5 exercises 100 reps each. Obviously not in a row but say 5 sets of 20 or something like that. With no more that 120 sec rest in between sets.
It's more exhausting than running 5 miles. I see a drop in my BMI every week I train the 500.
Sorry for the long answer but it's all about the work you put in.0 -
Could strength training (SL5x5-type) be considered HIT? I don't look at it as cardio. But HIT maybe? --All out effort then rest...0
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The weights would have to be lighter to lift faster. And I know that's not cardio.
I find that achieving a true HIT (heart rate levels) is hard to achieve. But I thought @Azdak may be able to explain how strength training could or could not be considered HIT.0 -
KittensMaster wrote: »The first trainers answer was pretty technical correct
Please explain how increasing breathing and heart rate is not similar to cardio.
In any way, how is that not cardio?
I have hired three trainers over two years and had great results.
Nothing at all like your perception of a black eye to the vocation. Reading an article on trainers is a bit different than getting to know a few and setting goals with them, and then teaching them.
My experience sharply contrasts your summary.
I'm working my usual 12-hour Sunday shift today and have limited time for detailed responses.
I have answered this question numerous times over the years, but not for a while. This is an article I wrote concerning HRMs and strength training which explains some of the basics, although it doesn't address this topic directly.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
I appreciate your answer
It isn't exactly what I was commenting to but forums lack the rich context of an actual conversation
That is the problem with a reporter distilling comments from trainers as compared to sitting down with one and working out a strategy to reach a goal
I have done that now three times and it has worked well.
It seems a bit harsh to broad stroke paint trainers by the article
There are lots of good trainers that take their clients success personally
I don't see myself as lucky in picking good ones. But I also understand the client responsibility in providing clear goals and doing the work.
The trainer relationship is more like a team thing for me.
Anyway. HRM numbers are ball park in the gym
For triathlon training they are great. You don't want to be at 95% HRM for your ride because you are setting yourself up for a bad run.
Gotta use the tool correctly.
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It was just a shock to see 54 trainers with degrees and advanced certs and not one could answer the question accurately.
Maybe that's because that's what their certification taught them:Health Related Benefits from Resistance Training:
- Improved Cardiovascular Efficiency
http://learn.nasm.org/courses/int_res_tr/Integrated Resistance Training Manual_LowRes.pdf
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The weights would have to be lighter to lift faster. And I know that's not cardio.
I find that achieving a true HIT (heart rate levels) is hard to achieve. But I thought @Azdak may be able to explain how strength training could or could not be considered HIT.
The heart rate response to heavy strength training is driven by completely different physiological factors than when doing cardio. So while the actual number is the same, what's happening in the body is different.
During cardio, the increased heart rate is due to a volume load-- the heart pumps faster and harder to pump more blood; cardiac output (and thus VO2) increase.
During heavy strength training, heart rate increases due to a pressure load. The heart has to pump faster to overcome intrathoracic pressure and peripheral resistance. Even though heart rate increases, cardiac output and VO2 only increase by a modest amount. So there is not the same "cardio training" taking place.
Monkeying around with your strength workout (eg working with less rest between sets) significantly decreases the quality of your strength workout without really increasing the cardio component.
Now you can do "cardio" training using weight lifting movements. However, in order to achieve a cardio training effect, you must lower the resistance to the point where you are getting much less strength training benefit.
As always, it comes down to designing a problem around your specific abilities and goals. But you (or the trainer) has to have a clear idea of what type of exercise does what and not just lump it all together.0 -
KittensMaster wrote: »KittensMaster wrote: »The first trainers answer was pretty technical correct
Please explain how increasing breathing and heart rate is not similar to cardio.
In any way, how is that not cardio?
I have hired three trainers over two years and had great results.
Nothing at all like your perception of a black eye to the vocation. Reading an article on trainers is a bit different than getting to know a few and setting goals with them, and then teaching them.
My experience sharply contrasts your summary.
I'm working my usual 12-hour Sunday shift today and have limited time for detailed responses.
I have answered this question numerous times over the years, but not for a while. This is an article I wrote concerning HRMs and strength training which explains some of the basics, although it doesn't address this topic directly.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/hrms-cannot-count-calories-during-strength-training-17698
I appreciate your answer
It isn't exactly what I was commenting to but forums lack the rich context of an actual conversation
That is the problem with a reporter distilling comments from trainers as compared to sitting down with one and working out a strategy to reach a goal
I have done that now three times and it has worked well.
It seems a bit harsh to broad stroke paint trainers by the article
There are lots of good trainers that take their clients success personally
I don't see myself as lucky in picking good ones. But I also understand the client responsibility in providing clear goals and doing the work.
The trainer relationship is more like a team thing for me.
Anyway. HRM numbers are ball park in the gym
For triathlon training they are great. You don't want to be at 95% HRM for your ride because you are setting yourself up for a bad run.
Gotta use the tool correctly.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing, but I appreciate your thoughts. And yes, I am (purposefully) painting with a broad brush to make a point, so if you think that's unfair from your perspective, you are welcome to say so.
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The weights would have to be lighter to lift faster. And I know that's not cardio.
I find that achieving a true HIT (heart rate levels) is hard to achieve. But I thought @Azdak may be able to explain how strength training could or could not be considered HIT.
The heart rate response to heavy strength training is driven by completely different physiological factors than when doing cardio. So while the actual number is the same, what's happening in the body is different.
During cardio, the increased heart rate is due to a volume load-- the heart pumps faster and harder to pump more blood; cardiac output (and thus VO2) increase.
During heavy strength training, heart rate increases due to a pressure load. The heart has to pump faster to overcome intrathoracic pressure and peripheral resistance. Even though heart rate increases, cardiac output and VO2 only increase by a modest amount. So there is not the same "cardio training" taking place.
Monkeying around with your strength workout (eg working with less rest between sets) significantly decreases the quality of your strength workout without really increasing the cardio component.
Now you can do "cardio" training using weight lifting movements. However, in order to achieve a cardio training effect, you must lower the resistance to the point where you are getting much less strength training benefit.
As always, it comes down to designing a problem around your specific abilities and goals. But you (or the trainer) has to have a clear idea of what type of exercise does what and not just lump it all together.
Thanks for writing this summary explanation. I think many of us on here appreciate it.0 -
Just quickly scanned through. I notice many have accreditation from the same organizations. Makes me think there is a definite lack in the training.0
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Just because someone is accredited doesn't make them more knowledgeable, especially when that accreditation doesn't meet academic rigor. Forensic science comes to mind with the exception of genetics which hails from a different path.
Does recent research points to electrons spilling out of cell walls as the cause for burning sensation and major cause of fatigue as opposed to lactic acid buildup? Just because one is a harbinger doesn't make it the culprit.0 -
I am generally distrustful of personal trainers. I know there are good ones out there, but I've heard so many horror stories too.
My boyfriend got a free personal training session at our gym when we first signed up. At the time he was recovering from a serious back injury, but had finally got permission from his doctor to start working out again - with certain limitations in place. Going into the personal training session, my boyfriend very clearly explained this to the trainer and told him exactly what his weight limitations were. Throughout the session the trainer kept trying to get my boyfriend to lift more, or do things that his doctor specifically told him not to do. Whenever my boyfriend told the trainer no, the trainer lectured him about how "he would never make progress if he didn't push himself".
On top of that, a friend of mine has been having issues with her knees for the last month now after a session with her trainer where he kept pushing her to do something that she told him didn't feel right.0
This discussion has been closed.
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