Help with squats
JoshAylward
Posts: 11 Member
hi guys and girls
I'm a gym newbie 7months in, still learning the ropes and have been trying to get good technique for squats. the only way I can do this is by spreading my Legs as wide as a sumo wrestler, to be able to squat without bending over to get closer to the ground. I think it has to do with the flexibility in my ancles and hips and wondered if there was anything I should be doing to improve on this as very keen to be able to perform the excesise correctly to avoid injury, have tried using a raised heel which helps slightly but still isn't great, if you guys could suggest anything please do let me know
I'm a gym newbie 7months in, still learning the ropes and have been trying to get good technique for squats. the only way I can do this is by spreading my Legs as wide as a sumo wrestler, to be able to squat without bending over to get closer to the ground. I think it has to do with the flexibility in my ancles and hips and wondered if there was anything I should be doing to improve on this as very keen to be able to perform the excesise correctly to avoid injury, have tried using a raised heel which helps slightly but still isn't great, if you guys could suggest anything please do let me know
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Replies
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Post a form video.
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Nobody squats totally upright, you will have to bend at least somewhat as you go down. Depending on your leverages and your bar position it can even be an extreme bend. It's normal and expected.
But as mentioned above, post videos.0 -
IsaackGMOON wrote: »Post a form video.Nobody squats totally upright, you will have to bend at least somewhat as you go down. Depending on your leverages and your bar position it can even be an extreme bend. It's normal and expected.
But as mentioned above, post videos.
Thanks guys next time I'm in the gym I'll video record it0 -
Definitely need a vid.
I will point out that there are different squat forms, some to do with how comfortable it is, some from body mechanics and some from mobility.
Some squat shoulder width, some with wide stance (like Westside training). If you look at most, not all, PL they squat wide.
Then there's high bar and low bar squatting…….
So the above ^^^^ is why we need a vid.0 -
To learn to squat without leaning forward too much
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7-HLtOglfM 0 -
To learn to squat without leaning forward too much
That is only one type of squat though. Upper body position is different between goblet squats and low bar squats, for example. If I tried to stay as upright as a goblet squat while low bar squatting, I would fall backwards. It will depend on what kind of squat the OP is doing.
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keep for reference0
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Without seeing your squat form there's not much I can advise but I'll try.
If you're squatting out in flat shoes or bare feet with regular foot spacing, you can put a couple of 2.5kg plates under your heels to get a slightly lower squat. Proper squatting shoes as worn by oly lifters have a wedge shaped sole that's high at the back and low at the front but using plates under the heels is a quick and easy way if you're squatting and it doesn't cost you a penny!.
If your flexibility is an issue, it could be calves, glutes, erector spinae among other things that need stretching out. Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation stretching is an excellent way to get very fast and effective flexibility gains and might be worth looking into if you're terribly inflexible.
The crease of the hip being parallel to the top of the knee is the world standard for a proper depth legal squat, so do whatever you do with that goal in mind.0 -
Get a trainer to give you advice. Nothing will match someone seeing your form in person. A single session with a personal trainer should not be too expensive, and bad form on squats could be dangerous.
Osric
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Mirrim52, good illustration for why people should do goblet, front, Zercher, thruster and sandbag shoulder squats instead of back squats. As you say, there are many kinds of squat, all safer than back squats. Most untrained people cannot keep their spine out of flexation with the weight behind their neck. I mentioned the goblet squat as a teaching tool. Most people cannot do heavy goblet squats leaning forward (biceps weak link) and must squat upright same for front squats.0
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Mirrim52, good illustration for why people should do goblet, front, Zercher, thruster and sandbag shoulder squats instead of back squats. As you say, there are many kinds of squat, all safer than back squats. Most untrained people cannot keep their spine out of flexation with the weight behind their neck. I mentioned the goblet squat as a teaching tool. Most people cannot do heavy goblet squats leaning forward (biceps weak link) and must squat upright same for front squats.
I have done nothing but low bar back squats since I started lifting in Jan. and I am thrilled with the results. I can't imagine doing anything else. Never had a problem with spine flexion. All the illustration shows is that there are different back angles for different squats.0 -
Mirrim52, good illustration for why people should do goblet, front, Zercher, thruster and sandbag shoulder squats instead of back squats. As you say, there are many kinds of squat, all safer than back squats. Most untrained people cannot keep their spine out of flexation with the weight behind their neck. I mentioned the goblet squat as a teaching tool. Most people cannot do heavy goblet squats leaning forward (biceps weak link) and must squat upright same for front squats.
All weight lifters were, at one point, untrained people, and yet many (myself included) have learned to do back squats properly (low bar is my personal preference as well) with no spinal flexation. I started with 30 pounds less than a year ago and worked my way up - I can now back squat 112 lbs with beautiful form. Naturally you're not going to start a newbie out with 300 pounds, but to tell an "untrained person" that they just shouldn't do back squats because they are weak is like telling them to not eat on an empty stomach. Starting somewhere with your training is the way to get stronger at something, not avoiding it.0 -
JoshAylward wrote: »hi guys and girls
I'm a gym newbie 7months in, still learning the ropes and have been trying to get good technique for squats. the only way I can do this is by spreading my Legs as wide as a sumo wrestler, to be able to squat without bending over to get closer to the ground. I think it has to do with the flexibility in my ancles and hips and wondered if there was anything I should be doing to improve on this as very keen to be able to perform the excesise correctly to avoid injury, have tried using a raised heel which helps slightly but still isn't great, if you guys could suggest anything please do let me know
Good on you for wanting and being willing to learn! My suggestion would be to look for a personal trainer who specializes in Olympic lifting (a local CrossFit gym would be a good place to look for someone) and ask for just one session to help you. Just a half hour with a personal trainer will do you more good than spending hours on YouTube and watching yourself in a mirror trying to figure it out, and will greatly reduce the risk of injuring yourself in the process, even with light weights. I just did this last night to help with my cleans and it was a huge help to me.
Wishing you all the best!0 -
You can always use a chair behind you and squat until your butt barely hits the chair. This really helped with me form. I was trying to go to low or straight back, etc and it would cause injury.0
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I was responding to the original issue, someone struggling with the inability to squat with good form. A test; if you can't stand, facing a wall with your feet close to the wall and squat all the way down to a squatting rest position without smacking your face against the wall then stand back up, you will most likely be helped by practicing that and then the other squat progressions before back squatting. People are not all blessed with the same starting abilities. Loading dysfunction is a sure path to eventual injury.0
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Front squats help with keeping your chest up compared to back squats0
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I was responding to the original issue, someone struggling with the inability to squat with good form. A test; if you can't stand, facing a wall with your feet close to the wall and squat all the way down to a squatting rest position without smacking your face against the wall then stand back up, you will most likely be helped by practicing that and then the other squat progressions before back squatting. People are not all blessed with the same starting abilities. Loading dysfunction is a sure path to eventual injury.
Okay, I'll bite. I just tried your little test. I don't know how close you mean for the feet to be from the wall, but I have to stand with my feet 4 inches away from the wall in order to do a front squat position without my knees hitting the wall. Back squat position? No way you can't hit your face on the wall if you're doing it correctly. Yet, I can do a low-bar back squat no problem with ideal form. I fail to see how your test is useful in the least.
The thing to look for with ANY squat position is not how far you are bent over, but the position of the bar in relation to the mid foot, and your back should be straight. That will require bending forward at the hip in a back squat, as the graphic above demonstrated (Starting Strength is a great resource, by the way, OP) but the degree of that angle is dependent on all kinds of individual factors - the width of your stance, the length of your femur, high bar vs. low bar, etc..
I started with back squats and have had not even the slightest issue with injury. Why? Not because I'm blessed with any sort of special starting ability, but because I worked with a good training program and learned how to do it correctly rather than just getting under a bar and winging it. Again, the best advice for the OP is not to avoid back squats, but to get some training in proper form so he won't injure himself. A trainer would be able to address any potential issues with flexibility and save him a lot of confusion and frustration that comes from getting irrelevant advice based on assumptions about "starting abilities."
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Mirrim52, good illustration for why people should do goblet, front, Zercher, thruster and sandbag shoulder squats instead of back squats. As you say, there are many kinds of squat, all safer than back squats. Most untrained people cannot keep their spine out of flexation with the weight behind their neck. I mentioned the goblet squat as a teaching tool. Most people cannot do heavy goblet squats leaning forward (biceps weak link) and must squat upright same for front squats.
That illustration does not indicate whatsoever that front squat forms are safer than back squats. That illustration is showing how you line up the bar path and the proper position. Its also a damn good illustration to show people that the "knees shouldn't go over the toes on squats" myth is a bunch of hogwash.
For those not knowing, in the illustration the first drawing is a front squat, second is a high bar squat and the third is a low bar squat.0 -
Cheers for all the responses guys, I haven't got round to doing squats in the gym yet as I always do it with my training partner, next time we are there I'll ask him to video for me, getting a personal trainer to help us a really good idea and will do that in the mean time I have been doing the equivalent of the goblet squats but with atlas stones only 20kg but that seems to work more so with the weight being infront of me as I think I'm more conscious of keeping my back straight,
Will keep you all posted and once again cheers for all your responses every last one has been helpful0 -
Mirrim52, good illustration for why people should do goblet, front, Zercher, thruster and sandbag shoulder squats instead of back squats. As you say, there are many kinds of squat, all safer than back squats. Most untrained people cannot keep their spine out of flexation with the weight behind their neck. I mentioned the goblet squat as a teaching tool. Most people cannot do heavy goblet squats leaning forward (biceps weak link) and must squat upright same for front squats.
Yeah...no.0 -
Josh, Happy to read that doing something to help your form is helping you squat. Keep on keeping on.0
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Relevance comes from your objectives. I'm 65 and want to keep the ability to get a hot water heater on and off the back of my truck by myself, to carry bundles of shingles up a ladder, to do real life tasks that require functional strength. Various front squats, loaded carries, Turkish get-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and such contribute to that, so that's what I do. At this point in my life, neither competitive lifting or body building have appeal.
I'm not saying that back squats are bad. If you want to compete in power lifting, it's a must. I don't need it, but if you like it, go for it. But your remark about my advising someone to not back squat until they can front squat is very misguided. Josh described himself wanting to do something to improve his form so he could squat without injury. He described a form of dysfunction that involved having to bend too far forward to squat. Loading dysfunction is a recipe for disaster. Advising someone to not do regressions designed to teach good form is irresponsible.
The world is full of people who don't think they need to master basics before progressing. You don't often find them still training when they get old.0 -
Relevance comes from your objectives. I'm 65 and want to keep the ability to get a hot water heater on and off the back of my truck by myself, to carry bundles of shingles up a ladder, to do real life tasks that require functional strength. Various front squats, loaded carries, Turkish get-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and such contribute to that, so that's what I do. At this point in my life, neither competitive lifting or body building have appeal.
I'm not saying that back squats are bad. If you want to compete in power lifting, it's a must. I don't need it, but if you like it, go for it. But your remark about my advising someone to not back squat until they can front squat is very misguided. Josh described himself wanting to do something to improve his form so he could squat without injury. He described a form of dysfunction that involved having to bend too far forward to squat. Loading dysfunction is a recipe for disaster. Advising someone to not do regressions designed to teach good form is irresponsible.
The world is full of people who don't think they need to master basics before progressing. You don't often find them still training when they get old.
I'm a 40-year-old housewife and mother of 10. Body building and competitive lifting are not my reasons for lifting, either, but I have not found that back squats are any less helpful in my functional strength applications than the front squats, and even overhead squats I do.
Josh can correct me if I'm wrong, but his first post did not describe a dysfunction involving having to bend too far forward to squat so much as a misunderstanding (an ignorance, if you will) that bending forward when squatting is NORMAL and NECESSARY for certain types of squats. He didn't specify which type of squat he was doing, which is why the first several responses were asking for a video in order to be more of a help to him on the specific squat he was attempting. Since he was describing that he had to have his stance so wide in order to complete the squat, it sounds to me like he was attempting a back squat, but relying on misguided information about having to be upright and not letting your knees go past your toes in doing so, which would obviously make the back squat very difficult to do correctly. This is why it was recommended that he get some training, so he can be taught and shown that a back squat does, in fact, require leaning forward at the waist with a straight back in order to keep the bar in the proper position relative to the feet and, therefore, avoid injury.
NOBODY is recommending that he not do whatever he needs to do in order to learn correct form. If you actually read my posts, you would see that is EXACTLY what I am recommending. I can almost guarantee that there is nothing wrong with Josh's squat technique that a short training session can't fix, and then he'll be well on his way to successfully squatting to his heart's content.0 -
Well sorry Utah Mom. You probably caught me in a grouchy old man moment. What went into my ear was someone who started in January (a beginner) criticizing the idea of using goblet and front squats to learn to squat (not to mention using words like irrelevant and ignorance). Since he said that it helped him keep his back straight I assume that I guessed what he was asking.0
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Well sorry Utah Mom. You probably caught me in a grouchy old man moment. What went into my ear was someone who started in January (a beginner) criticizing the idea of using goblet and front squats to learn to squat (not to mention using words like irrelevant and ignorance). Since he said that it helped him keep his back straight I assume that I guessed what he was asking.
For the record, I've got nothing against front squats. I do more than 100 of them every week. What I take issue with is the notion that one has to learn to do them first in order to squat correctly, since the technique/positioning is different than that of back squats. There is absolutely no reason a person couldn't learn to do them both simultaneously or in reverse order (as I did).
That being said, I think we've done enough damage to Josh's thread - though I do hope our discussion was instructive for him on some level. To each his/her own.0 -
I just posted the link to the goblet squat video because it is what Dan John uses to teach people to squat. A strength coach of his caliber might be worth listening to. (no, I'm not appealing to authority)0
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I just posted the link to the goblet squat video because it is what Dan John uses to teach people to squat. A strength coach of his caliber might be worth listening to. (no, I'm not appealing to authority)
And Mark Rippetoe (also a high-caliber strength coach) recommends learning the back squat before the front squat because they are different enough that he wants to eliminate confusion in the new lifter. Every coach/trainer has their personal preference, and one is not necessarily better than the other. Like I said, to each his/her own.0 -
Mark and Dan are friends. I still don't understand your hostility to anything other than your favorite squat. Josh said it helped.0
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My initial reference was with regards to the back squats although being a newbie I should of been clearer about the type of squats I'm struggling to perform correctly, however with the use of goblet squats and overhead squats I can see how they help with back squats because of the use of the hips To help with hip mobility and to be able to go low enough.
once again I'm not being the most helpful in not providing a video at this stage but once I can provide one this should help show where my problems are.
Thanks
Josh0
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