Soooo Confused about Ketogenics
JanGraceyDAlessandroStinson
Posts: 8 Member
Very new to MFP myself, but both my daughters have used it for a long while. I've used the calorie counters and other tools but, the first time I've tried to set something up to help myself.
I did that because I'm thoroughly confused about these ketogenic diets, but I'm preparing to try one. I've read many, many, many articles on a variety of sites (including some medical information). Lots of articles contradict each other, and amounts for grams/meal often differ.
Still ... the confusion doesn't want to go away. I wish someone would make a webapp for that. You know ... fill in all the foods you like (I don't mean cake and ice cream, but normal foods you eat like salad or meat and veggies) and then produces a weekly menu for breakfast lunch and dinner so you know what you're doing. Cause at this point I'm still feeling lost (my first day of course).
Trying to make a grocery list and at the moment it contains mostly some veggies and fruits. So far, breakfast and lunch today have been minimal because I'm uncertain about what I'm supposed to be eating.
So ... why this diet?
Cause I'm stuck. The plateau of all plateaus and I'm tired of it. I worked pretty hard getting where I'm at. I want to lose another 10-15 pounds and shake past the point I'm at and have been at for seven or eight months.
See, I've lost weight but there's still the fat. The dreaded belly, hips, upper thighs. <sigh> Yep I got the pear shape goin' on.
I could be a little over-obsessive about it. I admit it. Some of the belly will never go away (stretched skin, and I'm too old for it to unstretch), but I want the rest of what will go, gone.
Since I skipped right past the "introduce yourself" section a little history:
59 (60 in January), have "dieted" for most of my life ... probably since the age of 12. I've always been large (about 160-165lbs in high school) and up until about 5 years ago, never managed to get down below 150 lbs. I'm 5'4, so I never looked overly obese but certainly never looked slim either.
I've tried it all (when I was young and foolish) ... the skim milk/banana diet (lost 15lbs the week before my wedding using that one); the rice diet; the pilots diet (wasn't called that back then); the cabbage soup diet ... you name it, I did it. And mostly they worked. Of course they did. But not for long. Just long enough to fit into "that dress" for a special event. And the yo-yo got a longer string with each one until it was impossibly long and I decided to cut it off.
5 years back, I started on weight watchers. At that time I'd ballooned to 252 pounds and I needed it gone. WW was very successful for me because it isn't a "diet" ... it can't be a diet or it will just come back. If you look at it as a diet, you'll fail. What I liked about it was that you can still eat everything ... there's no "don't eat cake" (okay have to say this now - for me, cake - birthday cake in particular - is it's own food group. A favourite one) with weight watchers.
It's a way to learn how to change your eating habits and eat normal portions, limit the amounts of certain foods - in other words eating in a healthier way. Along with that, a few months in when I was surprised by my weight loss, I joined a gym and hired a trainer. A year and a half later, I was down to where I am now (145 lbs). For the last several years, we had no gym membership.
Signed up at a new one months ago, but there's no trainers, and I can't afford one now anyways (we're retired).
I do a 30 minute round on the weight machines (mostly for toning), then 40-50 minutes on the treadmill (sorry, I don't run and probably never will) at what feels like a reasonably okay pace, with a fairly high incline (burns roughly 300-350 cals. in that time) and then, if my husband's getting a massage, I'll get on the upright or spin bike for 10 mins. I do this 5-6 times a week, with two days (so alternating) spending more time on the weights and some floor stuff like crunches and only 15-20 mins. on the treadmill.
So, it's not like I'm not working at it. Daily calories (which I've always tracked in a downloaded program, not online) have been within the allowance for my weight (minus the calories required to lose weight at the rate of 2-3 pounds a month).
Totally sorry for the wall of text up there but thought it might save a lot of back and forth question/answer posts.
Does anyone have suggestions for meals?
I did that because I'm thoroughly confused about these ketogenic diets, but I'm preparing to try one. I've read many, many, many articles on a variety of sites (including some medical information). Lots of articles contradict each other, and amounts for grams/meal often differ.
Still ... the confusion doesn't want to go away. I wish someone would make a webapp for that. You know ... fill in all the foods you like (I don't mean cake and ice cream, but normal foods you eat like salad or meat and veggies) and then produces a weekly menu for breakfast lunch and dinner so you know what you're doing. Cause at this point I'm still feeling lost (my first day of course).
Trying to make a grocery list and at the moment it contains mostly some veggies and fruits. So far, breakfast and lunch today have been minimal because I'm uncertain about what I'm supposed to be eating.
So ... why this diet?
Cause I'm stuck. The plateau of all plateaus and I'm tired of it. I worked pretty hard getting where I'm at. I want to lose another 10-15 pounds and shake past the point I'm at and have been at for seven or eight months.
See, I've lost weight but there's still the fat. The dreaded belly, hips, upper thighs. <sigh> Yep I got the pear shape goin' on.
I could be a little over-obsessive about it. I admit it. Some of the belly will never go away (stretched skin, and I'm too old for it to unstretch), but I want the rest of what will go, gone.
Since I skipped right past the "introduce yourself" section a little history:
59 (60 in January), have "dieted" for most of my life ... probably since the age of 12. I've always been large (about 160-165lbs in high school) and up until about 5 years ago, never managed to get down below 150 lbs. I'm 5'4, so I never looked overly obese but certainly never looked slim either.
I've tried it all (when I was young and foolish) ... the skim milk/banana diet (lost 15lbs the week before my wedding using that one); the rice diet; the pilots diet (wasn't called that back then); the cabbage soup diet ... you name it, I did it. And mostly they worked. Of course they did. But not for long. Just long enough to fit into "that dress" for a special event. And the yo-yo got a longer string with each one until it was impossibly long and I decided to cut it off.
5 years back, I started on weight watchers. At that time I'd ballooned to 252 pounds and I needed it gone. WW was very successful for me because it isn't a "diet" ... it can't be a diet or it will just come back. If you look at it as a diet, you'll fail. What I liked about it was that you can still eat everything ... there's no "don't eat cake" (okay have to say this now - for me, cake - birthday cake in particular - is it's own food group. A favourite one) with weight watchers.
It's a way to learn how to change your eating habits and eat normal portions, limit the amounts of certain foods - in other words eating in a healthier way. Along with that, a few months in when I was surprised by my weight loss, I joined a gym and hired a trainer. A year and a half later, I was down to where I am now (145 lbs). For the last several years, we had no gym membership.
Signed up at a new one months ago, but there's no trainers, and I can't afford one now anyways (we're retired).
I do a 30 minute round on the weight machines (mostly for toning), then 40-50 minutes on the treadmill (sorry, I don't run and probably never will) at what feels like a reasonably okay pace, with a fairly high incline (burns roughly 300-350 cals. in that time) and then, if my husband's getting a massage, I'll get on the upright or spin bike for 10 mins. I do this 5-6 times a week, with two days (so alternating) spending more time on the weights and some floor stuff like crunches and only 15-20 mins. on the treadmill.
So, it's not like I'm not working at it. Daily calories (which I've always tracked in a downloaded program, not online) have been within the allowance for my weight (minus the calories required to lose weight at the rate of 2-3 pounds a month).
Totally sorry for the wall of text up there but thought it might save a lot of back and forth question/answer posts.
Does anyone have suggestions for meals?
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Replies
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I don't do keto...but I believe there's a good keto group so I will leave the eating alone and just add
I really do believe that the older you get the more important a progressive resistance programme (heavy lifting) is to your body shape and long term health and ability to eat more ...0 -
I'm going to add this here too...
Read this: http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2009/10/26/how-to-not-suck-at-working-out/
Get a programme
Books
Strong Curves
New Rules of Lifting for Women
Structured online programmes
http://stronglifts.com/5x5/
https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-routines/4-week-guide-starting-strength
Why?
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2011/07/21/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/
If you can't bring yourself to do free weights yet then do a decent bodyweight programme
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2009/12/09/beginner-body-weight-workout-burn-fat-build-muscle/
But it all comes down to calorie intake for fat loss. This is a good thread (but it's not keto...so hopefully someone will link the keto group if that's really what you want to do)
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p10 -
Thanks for the links. I've seen that picture before. In fact, it's one I sent to my daughter when she complained that training wasn't helping her lose any weight on the scale. I tried to explain what the scale says doesn't mean things aren't changing.0
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Atkins was Keto for the first several weeks while in the "induction" phase, but then the carbs begin to increase.
Veggies and fruits are not what you lean towards....think chicken, turkey, cheese, grass-fed beef, Whey Protein, Butter, Macadamia nuts and oil, MCT Oil..... Read books: The Rosedale Diet, Keto-Clarity, Low carbohydrate living.... Basically you count carbs while still watching calories. To get into Ketosis (Fat burning Dominate), generally requires you consume less than 50 grams of carbs a day for about 3 weeks before your body "converts" over to using primarily fat for energy rather than the typical "Sugar Burner"..
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I suspect that your expectations from keto (or any other diet) are not very realistic, especially since it looks like you are already very close to your goal weight. I also seriously doubt that for someone who loves cake ketogenics diets are the way to go. Say you manage to stick to it for a few months and lose the 10 lbs bothering you. What next?0
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A ketogenic diet is simply one that's very low carb to keep you in ketosis, and involves eating mainly eggs, cheese, butter and meat with minimal veggies. It's unhealthy, completely unnecessary and pointless unless you want to spend the rest of your life debating whether you should eat a potato or a banana to avoid going out of ketosis. Or routinely peeing on a ketostick to see if it's purple enough.
Don't bother with it. Eat whole/unprocessed foods. Avoid junk/processed food. Exercise.0 -
[I suspect that your expectations from keto (or any other diet) are not very realistic, especially since it looks like you are already very close to your goal weight. I also seriously doubt that for someone who loves cake ketogenics diets are the way to go. Say you manage to stick to it for a few months and lose the 10 lbs bothering you. What next?]
Is any diet realistic for a birthday-cake-aholic? (It's kind of a joke in our house. I get my own cake every year on my birthday ... just for me. This year, I couldn't eat it. One piece. That was it.)
Not realistic in what way? I don't expect to lose it all right away or quickly. I expect (I suppose) to lose more fat than just weight. I've lost a lot of weight and kept it off for years but there is fat. My body isn't exactly "lean" at this point.
Everything I've read about this (whether true or not, I don't know which is why I've asked here ... people who actually use it usually have some sort of opinion on it) indicates that not only is it a good way to kickstart your body again, but the few people I've read say they feel better ... less aches and pains from disease (I have rheumatoid arthritis, among other things like high blood pressure ... yeah, still even after losing 100+ pounds).
I've tried a lot of stuff that doesn't work. This may be the same, but even at my age ... I haven't given up wanting to at least hit the goal. Besides that, if it does help with overall health and illness, then I would continue to live with the food regimen. While I love cake, I love my grandkids more. I want to be healthy enough to have fun with my great-grandkids (when I get some
) 0 -
Traveler120 wrote: »A ketogenic diet is simply one that's very low carb to keep you in ketosis, and involves eating mainly eggs, cheese, butter and meat with minimal veggies. It's unhealthy, completely unnecessary and pointless unless you want to spend the rest of your life debating whether you should eat a potato or a banana to avoid going out of ketosis. Or routinely peeing on a ketostick to see if it's purple enough.
Don't bother with it. Eat whole/unprocessed foods. Avoid junk/processed food. Exercise.
I guess you didn't read my post. I already been there/done that with the food and exercise. It's stalled. For a long time.
I know what the keto diet is. I'm just not sure how one combines the food properly for meals. The end of my first day. I ate quite a lot of veggies actually.
What I asked for was help with the meal/menu plans. It's not as easy as it seems. No, it doesn't list "minimal" veggies. The top thing on the list are leafy green veggies, other veggies low in carbs (like turnip which I love), some recommended fruits and things like avocado, greek yogurt, seeds and nuts. And yes, meat and butter, neither of which I have eaten much of for years. (Truthfully? The amount of fat makes me gag.)
I have no intention of peeing on any stick nor debating eating a banana or potato. Banana would win hands down (simply like them more than a potato).
So what I'd like is not discouragement from people, but a little help.
I have a feeling I won't last long here.0 -
Don't have an answer to your query, but major congratulations on what you have achieved so far. Very impressive. Best of luck with those pesky especially hard to lose last few.0
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Oh my word you are so wrong.Traveler120 wrote: »A ketogenic diet is simply one that's very low carb to keep you in ketosis, and involves eating mainly eggs, cheese, butter and meat with minimal veggies. It's unhealthy, completely unnecessary and pointless unless you want to spend the rest of your life debating whether you should eat a potato or a banana to avoid going out of ketosis. Or routinely peeing on a ketostick to see if it's purple enough.
Don't bother with it. Eat whole/unprocessed foods. Avoid junk/processed food. Exercise.
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Hey OP!
Ketogenic focuses mainly on high fat and moderate protein for fat burning purposes. the /r/keto reddit group has some AMAZING information. Don't like butter? Use coconut oil or olive oil instead. Fish, avocado, flax. You can look at my diary for today, chia pudding is so awesome! A big factor at least for me is continuing my exercise, this is mainly to take control of my triglycerides which are high because of not exercising enough AND I have the tendency to carb binge (sub sandwiches, ice cream, cereal, booze) so this eating style really helps reel in the cravings for carbs by satiating me with high fiber veggies, meat and high fat dairy. Spinach is really the hero of the keto diet because during keto we lose electrolytes faster since we aren't able to hold water as well as with a higher carb eating style. So we chug water, we pee a lot, and we lose sodium, potassium and magnesium that we need to replace with our diet. Join the /r/keto group and you'll see it's more than just steak and butter! 0 -
Oh and YES you do still need a calorie restriction. Need to get out the food scale and really keep an eye on things while you lose the last few pounds.0
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I agree that joining one of the subgroups may help. Reddit Keto, Keto, and the Low Carber Daily are all very helpful groups.
So you know in keto that carbs must be kept low, generally under 50g, but many of us choose to go lower like 20-30g. That is a fair amount of veggies depending on how you set up your day. There is no right or wrong way to do keto. One person I know is basically a carnivore so his carbs are almost zero. My carbs are set at 5% which works out to about 18g but I'm not married to that number. Some days I go closer to 50g, and other days I'm closer to 10g. Another man in ketosis was ding extremely intense and long workouts and was eating carbs around his exercise; he was closer to 200g of carbs per day but he was still in keosis.
So for food, think of the grocery store in sections.
There is your meat which can be beef, pork, lamb, bison, chicken, turkey, rabbit, fish, shell fish, canned fish, shrimp, whatever. Oh, and the sereotypical bacon.
For the produce section, it's simplest to go for "veggies" grown above ground like kale, spinach, celery, asparagus, snap peas, mushrooms, peppers, avocados, etc. Veggies grown below ground (carrots, yams, turnips, potatoes, etc) are higher in starch and must be limited or avoided. Berries are the safest (low sugar/carb) fruit to eat. If you are eating high carb fruits like bananas, consider eating just a portion. One banana has more sugar than I normally eat in a couple of days.
Nuts are great. Macadamia nuts are fattest. I think cashews and pistachios are some of the least fatty.
Eggs.
Dairy. Hard cheeses are good, as is heavy cream. Soft cheeses aren't as helpful but still good. Avoid any skim or lite dairy. Use full fat yogurt and sour cream. No milk - lots of lactose.
Fats are the most fun. Add extra full fat dressing to a salad. Put mayo or cheese on meats. Use a cheese dip on raw veggies. Add cream, coconut cream, butter or coconut oil to coffee. Butter a steak. Yummmmmmy.
But.... all that being said, it seems most people who have lasting success with keto stay on keto. Once people go off of the diet you will end up with exacty the same food choices as before and that might cause a regain of your weight.
I would start as you mean to go on. KWM?
Best wishes.0 -
What you're trying to achieve is body recomposition (higher lean tissue versus fat tissue) and that happens with a good resistance training program. However trying to put muscle on (even if there was a surplus) while in keto, is very difficult since some things like mTOR are disrupted due to lack of carbs.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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What you're trying to achieve is body recomposition (higher lean tissue versus fat tissue) and that happens with a good resistance training program. However trying to put muscle on (even if there was a surplus) while in keto, is very difficult since some things like mTOR are disrupted due to lack of carbs.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
@ninerbuff what's mTOR?
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JanGraceyDAlessandroStinson wrote: »[I suspect that your expectations from keto (or any other diet) are not very realistic, especially since it looks like you are already very close to your goal weight. I also seriously doubt that for someone who loves cake ketogenics diets are the way to go. Say you manage to stick to it for a few months and lose the 10 lbs bothering you. What next?]
Is any diet realistic for a birthday-cake-aholic? (It's kind of a joke in our house. I get my own cake every year on my birthday ... just for me. This year, I couldn't eat it. One piece. That was it.)
Not realistic in what way? I don't expect to lose it all right away or quickly. I expect (I suppose) to lose more fat than just weight. I've lost a lot of weight and kept it off for years but there is fat. My body isn't exactly "lean" at this point.
Everything I've read about this (whether true or not, I don't know which is why I've asked here ... people who actually use it usually have some sort of opinion on it) indicates that not only is it a good way to kickstart your body again, but the few people I've read say they feel better ... less aches and pains from disease (I have rheumatoid arthritis, among other things like high blood pressure ... yeah, still even after losing 100+ pounds).
I've tried a lot of stuff that doesn't work. This may be the same, but even at my age ... I haven't given up wanting to at least hit the goal. Besides that, if it does help with overall health and illness, then I would continue to live with the food regimen. While I love cake, I love my grandkids more. I want to be healthy enough to have fun with my great-grandkids (when I get some )
The way you describe it, you seem not satisfied with the way your body looks, more than your weight. I would expect that after a big weight loss, the body will never look as firm as it did. Losing more than 100 lbs is a huge accomplishment, but my guess is that for most people it will not mean going back to a body that never had put on these extra 100 lbs to begin with. Perhaps if your genes are perfect and you have age on your side, but in general, it is not happening.
Furthermore, I understand you are more upset about having more fat than muscle, at least from your description, rather than having a few kilos more or less. This is more related to overall physical activity and type of exercise, rather than diet choices. And again, age does matter in how fast and how successfully you can get to changing your body. You describe a routine of mainly walking, with some weight machines. Which sounds actually very good both for overall fitness and for health and very balanced. But, no, it is not going to give you the "toned" look you seem to be hoping for, not without following a more specific strength training approach.
As for why the scale is not moving, I would expect that at your weight and age, your TDEE even with the physical activity you describe must be somewhere in the 1600s? Probably 100 lower for losing the weight you are hoping to lose? Which does not leave at this point much room for error. Unfortunately the difference between maintenance and losing the few last vanity pounds, it is very small.0 -
The PI3K/AKT/MTOR pathway is an intracellular signaling pathway important in regulating the cell cycle.What you're trying to achieve is body recomposition (higher lean tissue versus fat tissue) and that happens with a good resistance training program. However trying to put muscle on (even if there was a surplus) while in keto, is very difficult since some things like mTOR are disrupted due to lack of carbs.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
@ninerbuff what's mTOR?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 0 -
Think of keto as high fat, lowish protein, and low carb.
Here is a site that has the shopping list:
http://greekbodycodex.com/ketogenic-diet-grocery-list/0 -
It sounds like you're just looking for another in a long line of crash diets.
That's not what you need.
You need a sustainable way of eating for life. That's where MFP can help.
Set a goal, log and weigh all your food and don't go over your calorie limit.
When you get to the right weight, set your goal to maintaining, and keep logging to stay the same weight.
Repeat until you have great caloric awareness. You can use MFP to tweak your fluctuations occasionally.
Don't make changes you can't stick with for life. You'd still need to stick to your calorie limit on a keto diet. Why put yourself through keto flu and deprivation needlessly?
Hope this helps. And can I just say, I love your OP! You've got a nice way with words, and it was a pleasure to read! 0
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