CREATINE INTAKE of 25g per day instead of 5g. Is that "normal"?
George5891
Posts: 33 Member
Hi everyone,
I must say, I am a big fun of John Kiefer.
I ve read his books and I am actually implementing his famous "Carb backloading" (CBL) Programme, and it works!
This post is however not about CBT, but about CREATINE Supplementation, which actually is part of CBL
Anyway, lets jump to the Topic.
So, in one of his articles on one of his websites (Source: http://athlete.io/4117/the-ultimate-guide-to-creatine-supplementation-part-3/ )
he (Kiefer) says that...
...if you are a 200 pound male with 10 percent body fat, the minimum amount of creatine needed on a daily basis to maintain maximum intracellular levels is 27.3.grams of creatine monohydrate.
This contradicts to the standard "common knowledge" guidance of Fitness Industries' "experts".
Normally you hear that you should do a loading phase of 5 days, where you consume 20g of creatine per day and then you take 5g creatine per day.
Guys and girls, what is your opinion on that?
Please read the article first before you share your opinion.
Thank you!
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Replies
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Creatine loading is not necessary. I find it to be just another way for the supplement industry to steal your money even quicker. 5 grams a day, at anytime of day is optimal.0
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There are different thought on the loading phase - bottom line it won't make a lot of difference either way - 5- 10 gms per day is fine unless you are loading - Eastcoast Jim0
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Dont forget you natually get creatine from meat.0
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I tried it, did not see any results. Got some stomach issues by taking so much creatine, but I did not notice any gains. Cheers0
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Dont forget you natually get creatine from meat.
Yeah it is red meat but you would need a monsterous amount to get 5g of creatine. I tried it when i first started lifting and especially during loading noticed a vast difference. I have since tried it as a early intermediate and no effect apart from getting cramps.0 -
As a 125lb woman, would less than 5g a day be adequate or is the dosage the same regardless?0
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http://examine.com/supplements/creatine/
Scientific studies show 5g of creatine daily is enough. Some people do choose to load it.
"It is not needed, it can be used as diagnosis to see if you 'respond' to creatine or to get slightly quicker benefits but in the long run loading is not a requirement of creatine supplementation. No harm in it either, except perhaps digestive discomfort"
Source0 -
Thanks everyone for contributing to this post. But I think no one has read the article, that I have attached to my first post, which I used as a prime reference...
So Please check at least this passage out:
These studies found that 20 grams per day of creatine, taken for five days, successfully raised muscle creatine content by 30-45 percent. The problem with the vast majority of these studies, however, is that they only lasted five to seven days—and yet we’ve been using them to make recommendations for people who supplement for months on end.
NOTE: I was not exhaustive in my search, but I pulled a large sample of research across different modes of inquiry, e.g., looking for improvements in endurance, strength, power, and one-repetition max.
Of the 47 studies, only 4 tested or employed a protocol lasting longer than 14 days and attempted to use a maintenance dosage of creatine[1-47]. The idea in these studies is to load for five days at a high level—the standard 20 grams per day—then maintain that supraphysiological concentration with 2-3 grams daily thereafter. This protocol was first tested in 1996 with apparent positive results[48]. It’s been used ever since.
This maintenance protocol should have seemed a bit suspect to other researchers, but only if they’d taken the time to consider that a 150 pound male (approximately 70 kilograms) will burn through about two grams of creatine naturally every day[49]. Since 95 percent of creatine exists within muscle tissue, the average resistance-trained athlete would require greater amounts of creatine just to maintain normal cellular levels.
It wasn’t until 2003 that researchers tested this maintenance protocol using more advanced methods of determining intracellular creatine levels. The group found that after two weeks of using the standard maintenance protocol outlined above, intracellular creatine levels returned to baseline[47]. In other words, the maintenance procedure didn’t maintain anything.
NOTE: The 2g/day maintenance level is the current recommendation by the American College of Sports Medicine’s expert panel on creatine[50].
Source : http://athlete.io/4117/the-ultimate-guide-to-creatine-supplementation-part-3/HamsterManV2 wrote: »
Scientific studies show 5g of creatine daily is enough. Some people do choose to load it.
I am using about 25 g a day for a month and i have gained 3kg of weight... thgats my biggest question. Is that all due creatine and is that normal?
My goal is to bulk.
Taa
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I believe it increases water retention in your muscles, so if you were to lower your creatine intake, your weight would also decrease a bit. Not 100% sure.0
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You can't absorb that much creatine, any excess will just be eliminated from your body.0
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I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.0
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musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.0 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
Can either of you provide sources for this? All studies that I've seen show no threat to kidneys in human usage and trials over as much as a 19 month period? If you've seen something I haven't, well, I'd sure like to see it.0 -
BecomingBane wrote: »musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
Can either of you provide sources for this? All studies that I've seen show no threat to kidneys in human usage and trials over as much as a 19 month period? If you've seen something I haven't, well, I'd sure like to see it.
No it's called common sense....your kidneys have to process that *kitten* man. I don't need a study...and besides you can manipulate the data in a study to the top seller. How else do you think big pharma got so big?!?!0 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »BecomingBane wrote: »musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
Can either of you provide sources for this? All studies that I've seen show no threat to kidneys in human usage and trials over as much as a 19 month period? If you've seen something I haven't, well, I'd sure like to see it.
No it's called common sense....your kidneys have to process that *kitten* man. I don't need a study...and besides you can manipulate the data in a study to the top seller. How else do you think big pharma got so big?!?!
I won't argue that big pharma is big, but that has nothing to do with independent studies and whether science is sound. Being that creatine is the most widely used and cheapest of all supplements available I'm seriously doubting that creatine ever had any financial impact on "bigPharma".
Science is science whether you choose to agree with it or not, and whether you choose to support conspiracy theories or not.
Burden of proof is on the person making the claim and "common sense" sure didn't stop anyone from dong anything harmful in the past... if you want to take that route, let's talk about things like radium elixers or anti-vaxxers, who also claim a stand point of "common sense".
Since MFP's forum is a forum whose purpose is educating those who need assistance regarding health, nutrition, weightloss etc, making faulty claims and citing "common sense" is well, pretty much the opposite of that.
Now, I've personally read 10 studies in the last hour on this topic to see if there was a cause for concern as it is now common practice to recommend creatine supplementation to all vegetarians, vegans, and elderly, I wanted to know if there was any health concern there.
Every study that I've read, has born the burden of proof, been peer reviewed, and published, and says nothing about health problems to either liver or kidney functions, nor increase in venous blood levels or urea excretion.
As stated above, creatine is the most widely studied supplement available and has been proven time and time again to be safe.
That has nothing to do with "Big Pharma" and doesn't make a fortune for anyone.0 -
Go with that! Good luck! I personally will error on the side of common sense and caution. Is it really worth it? Really? Eat more dude... and lift heavier. Old School!! Don't over think this crap!0
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musclesandmusic866 wrote: »Go with that! Good luck! I personally will error on the side of common sense and caution. Is it really worth it? Really? Eat more dude... and lift heavier. Old School!! Don't over think this crap!
You're kidding right?
Overthinking?
MFP community has over time kicked non-sense out of common sense and believe in claims backed by science.
It is not Facebook, it is a real deal.
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musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
If you can not find a scientific reference to back up your comment, then this comment should better be erased, forever!
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OP, on a related topic, overconsumption of protein, I have come across this website, authentic 100%.
Not sure if the information shared is backed up by legit research. But worth a read.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/body_size_and_shape/increasing_muscle_mass0 -
OP, on a related topic, overconsumption of protein, I have come across this website, authentic 100%.
Not sure if the information shared is backed up by legit research. But worth a read.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/body_size_and_shape/increasing_muscle_mass
Here's a better resource. All of this is backed by multiple studies: http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/200 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
If you can not find a scientific reference to back up your comment, then this comment should better be erased, forever!
It's a well known fact that higher creatine intake has an adverse effect of the kidneys and when you take creatine you need to increase your water consumption.
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/873.html#Safety0 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
If you can not find a scientific reference to back up your comment, then this comment should better be erased, forever!
It's a well known fact that higher creatine intake has an adverse effect of the kidneys and when you take creatine you need to increase your water consumption.
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/873.html#Safety
When taken by mouth in high doses, creatine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE. There is some concern that it could harm the kidney, liver, or heart function. However, a connection between high doses and these negative effects has not been proven.
From your source.0 -
The only concern that I had before starting with creatine was caffeine content.
I had a side effect of burning sensation, in my whole body at the very first time but after a through research it was found to be normal when first starting on it. Nothing to worry about if intake is not insane, excess of everything is bad, even excessive intake of water can kill.0 -
OP, on a related topic, overconsumption of protein, I have come across this website, authentic 100%.
Not sure if the information shared is backed up by legit research. But worth a read.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/body_size_and_shape/increasing_muscle_mass
Here's a better resource. All of this is backed by multiple studies: http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20
Thanks for this link, I will read it.0 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
If you can not find a scientific reference to back up your comment, then this comment should better be erased, forever!
It's a well known fact that higher creatine intake has an adverse effect of the kidneys and when you take creatine you need to increase your water consumption.
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/873.html#Safety
When taken by mouth in high doses, creatine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE. There is some concern that it could harm the kidney, liver, or heart function. However, a connection between high doses and these negative effects has not been proven.
From your source.
It's talking about how the body parts function, not about damage. It's correct that high doses don't cause the kidneys, liver or heart to function abnormally. The kidneys and liver can still filter effectively on high doses of creatine. The heart still pumps blood with no impact due to the increased water pressure being stored in the skeletal muscles. Taking high doses may harm the kidneys. There's a big difference between those two things.0 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
If you can not find a scientific reference to back up your comment, then this comment should better be erased, forever!
... really? It's actually common sense and @usmcmp has already posted a link as to why - "Creatine causes muscles to draw water from the rest of your body. Be sure to drink extra water to make up for this."0 -
musclesandmusic866 wrote: »I take 5g in the morning then 5 pre workout. Scares me to take more. Not good for the kidneys.
Agree - you should be drinking a lot more water than normal while using creatine due to the possible effects on the kidneys.
If you can not find a scientific reference to back up your comment, then this comment should better be erased, forever!
... really? It's actually common sense and @usmcmp has already posted a link as to why - "Creatine causes muscles to draw water from the rest of your body. Be sure to drink extra water to make up for this."
I did a thorough research on creatine before starting on it, I would like to add that information to this thread, need some time. and yes, I was serious, really! Common sense is not better than science.0 -
@usmcmp You lift heavy, that inspires many like me.
Do you have any post linked with bulking, I would love to read since you compete and have knowledge to share. It is a serious request.
I just finished a two year bulk in October (exactly 24 months). I've been cutting and planned on posting comparison pictures with my bulk information in April when my next show is. If you have questions (in order to not derail this thread) please feel free to send me a message with them. As for a general overview of what I did:
-Zero supplementation (no creatine, aminos, pre-workout, shakes, etc.)
-Little tracking of intake (I have to be meticulous when cutting for a show, so I gave myself a break)
-Two strength cycles lasting about 3-4 months, the rest was HST or PHAT
-2.2 pounds gained per month, approximately .9 pounds of lean mass gained per month
-Went from about 14% body fat to about 26%, lean mass went from about 130 to 153 (removing the water fluctuation)
I'm 5'9" and have a tendency to eat, a lot. I think that played a huge role in my ability to gain because I wasn't afraid of getting fat.0
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