Building muscle in a deficit, client observation.
Replies
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Sorry, i'm posting from my phone and it seems that I'm butchering the quotes.
Yarwell: The way I tend to think of it is that if you look at it on a meal to meal basis, if protein is adequate and training is intelligently designed and progressive, you introduce the possibility of gaining lean mass. Once again I'm referring to simply what happens acutely after a meal.
If the deficit is too large, you end up losing back some of that lean mass.
In very lean people when there's not enough body fat to utilize as fuel, the likelihood increases that more protein may come from the body (muscle loss).
And it would also make sense that very large deficits would increase That risk.
In this particular case the deficit was quite small on average and when I say on average I am simply looking at net change in mass over time.
There certainly were periods where I did not pull calories down despite bodyweight remaining stable for one week Because I knew it was due to travel.
But anyway you slice it the energy deficit was small and protein intake was continuously north of 1 g per pound of body weight because he prefers eating protein.0 -
@yarwellHe tracks calories daily, but his bodyweight has gone down 11 pounds.
It is possible that there have been occasional weeks at a small surplus but overall he has been in a net deficit
So we can say that over a fairly long period of time during which he lost weight he also gained muscle. Personally I think anabolic processes are likely to happen when there's a surplus of amino acids available eg after a meal and I have never been convinced that a calorie deficit over 24 hours or any other period of time would have a strong influence. Isn't that the basis of "Leangains" to have an anabolic window gaining muscle and a catabolic period losing fat.
PSMFs spare protein with high calorie deficit, and some studies have had people on those and gaining muscle. There was also a study of fat policemen losing weight and gaining muscle.
This study?
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463
The usual downside of measuring lean mass as opposed to muscle mass but as they were on a fairly substantial cut you could speculate that glycogen wasn't likely to have increased.
My personal experience was that gaining muscle while losing weight was easy when I was young but is far harder now (in my 50's). But then again just gaining muscle is far harder now whatever the state of my calorie balance.0 -
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@yarwellHe tracks calories daily, but his bodyweight has gone down 11 pounds.
It is possible that there have been occasional weeks at a small surplus but overall he has been in a net deficit
So we can say that over a fairly long period of time during which he lost weight he also gained muscle. Personally I think anabolic processes are likely to happen when there's a surplus of amino acids available eg after a meal and I have never been convinced that a calorie deficit over 24 hours or any other period of time would have a strong influence. Isn't that the basis of "Leangains" to have an anabolic window gaining muscle and a catabolic period losing fat.
PSMFs spare protein with high calorie deficit, and some studies have had people on those and gaining muscle. There was also a study of fat policemen losing weight and gaining muscle.
This study?
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463
The usual downside of measuring lean mass as opposed to muscle mass but as they were on a fairly substantial cut you could speculate that glycogen wasn't likely to have increased.
My personal experience was that gaining muscle while losing weight was easy when I was young but is far harder now (in my 50's). But then again just gaining muscle is far harder now whatever the state of my calorie balance.
Yes, that one. Determining muscle mass is harder than fat-free mass and that isn't easy either, but I took some comfort from " Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference" as confirmation.0 -
But anyway you slice it the energy deficit was small and protein intake was continuously north of 1 g per pound of body weight because he prefers eating protein.
Thanks, I would characterise this as a protein surplus alongside a small caloric deficit. I'm a nutrient partitioning guy.
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I think the idea that it's "impossible" to gain muscle at maintenance or deficit must come from bodybuilding's popular bulk/cut regime - which may be *optimal* for massive muscle growth but probably isn't required to see growth of a few inches. What did people do before before this trend? I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.0
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I'm glad to have someone reputable say it doesn't practically matter whether it's glycogen or muscle.
I'm one of these women who can 'get bulky' (meh, just muscular) easily. Before everyone scoffs, it relates, I promise.
#1- even pictures of me as a 5-year old show a lot of actual muscle, which is odd for a girl especially. Genetics? My uncle is a genetic goldmine for muscle development, so it wouldn't be so strange. My sister is the same way or more so (for a woman).
#2 I was a gymnast for years and years. My muscles were big then. I also started lifting in high school.
#3 Now I find that I can get my muscles bigger quickly after extensive periods off! I'm sure it's glycogen. They don't get bigger than before without other, tougher measures --the ones usually talked about. But to get them the same as before does not take long. I never run a big deficit, but it happens in a deficit, yes. Unless I'm misunderstanding how quickly most people see 'glycogen inches' and hardness when starting a new program? It comes faster than people talk about with women, and it confuses me.
#4 I have really high androgens for a woman, too. That probably makes a difference (studies have found that PCOS women have higher muscle mass than their matched counterparts. I have a higher androgen problem than most).
Let us know if you ever see this with a female client! I'd be very interested. I swear it's not always depressing for women having to wait and wait on results (maybe glycogen results, but still...).
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I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
http://core.ac.uk/download/files/35/271428.pdf shows them gaining fat-free mass and losing fat over the same period.0 -
@tomatoeyI think the idea that it's "impossible" to gain muscle at maintenance or deficit must come from bodybuilding's popular bulk/cut regime - which may be *optimal* for massive muscle growth but probably isn't required to see growth of a few inches. What did people do before before this trend? I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
I started training in the 70's.
We just went to the gym and trained. Initially you got stronger, you carried on and your muscles grew.
Diet was virtually completely distinct from exercise and training, If you wanted to lose weight as part of "getting in shape" you simply ate less. My muscle growth was in line with my training - not my diet.
I only became aware of bulk/cut cycles in the 80's and they were for the elite few bodybuilders who we assumed were on PEDs - never met anyone in a gym actually doing them at that time. Training was primarily for strength and for sport rather than aesthetics.
Body shapes were also very different on the whole without the obsession for leanness and six packs there is now.
The power lifter shape (big, strong but not lean) was far more common then amongst serious strength trainers than it is now.
The pendulum has swung an amazing amount in my training lifetime.
I'm not anti bulk/cut cycles but do think they are overused and over-hyped for many people.0 -
A lot of this is over my head, admittedly, but can some of the more knowledgeable posters put some caveats regarding the context of possibilities for the gaining of muscle in a deficit to happen -- in plain speak -- before the people who do hot yoga and walking and claim to be getting mad gainz start saying "yeah, but Side Steel said..."
Because I can guarantee you that's going to happen.0 -
@tomatoeyI think the idea that it's "impossible" to gain muscle at maintenance or deficit must come from bodybuilding's popular bulk/cut regime - which may be *optimal* for massive muscle growth but probably isn't required to see growth of a few inches. What did people do before before this trend? I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
I started training in the 70's.
We just went to the gym and trained. Initially you got stronger, you carried on and your muscles grew.
Diet was virtually completely distinct from exercise and training, If you wanted to lose weight as part of "getting in shape" you simply ate less. My muscle growth was in line with my training - not my diet.
I only became aware of bulk/cut cycles in the 80's and they were for the elite few bodybuilders who we assumed were on PEDs - never met anyone in a gym actually doing them at that time. Training was primarily for strength and for sport rather than aesthetics.
Body shapes were also very different on the whole without the obsession for leanness and six packs there is now.
The power lifter shape (big, strong but not lean) was far more common then amongst serious strength trainers than it is now.
The pendulum has swung an amazing amount in my training lifetime.
I'm not anti bulk/cut cycles but do think they are overused and over-hyped for many people.
I've only been training for two years but in my experience eating and food have not been separate from each other. When I still had to lose 50 pounds and I first stepped in A gym, I got stronger really fast for a while. Getting used to exercise and all. Then it stopped, still at baby weights for all the lifts. I was training regularly with a good routine, getting good nutrition and Rest. The only thing was that I was eating in A deficit.
When I reached my goal and started maintaining, I got stronger again for a bit maybe because more glycogen was available Or whatever. That stopped too, much faster than the first newbie gains. Now I'm gaining and feel like I'm getting stronger a lot faster again, time will tell.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »A lot of this is over my head, admittedly, but can some of the more knowledgeable posters put some caveats regarding the context of possibilities for the gaining of muscle in a deficit to happen -- in plain speak -- before the people who do hot yoga and walking and claim to be getting mad gainz start saying "yeah, but Side Steel said..."
Because I can guarantee you that's going to happen.
@PeachyCarol
Good point!0 -
@stevencloserstevencloser wrote: »
@tomatoeyI think the idea that it's "impossible" to gain muscle at maintenance or deficit must come from bodybuilding's popular bulk/cut regime - which may be *optimal* for massive muscle growth but probably isn't required to see growth of a few inches. What did people do before before this trend? I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
I started training in the 70's.
We just went to the gym and trained. Initially you got stronger, you carried on and your muscles grew.
Diet was virtually completely distinct from exercise and training, If you wanted to lose weight as part of "getting in shape" you simply ate less. My muscle growth was in line with my training - not my diet.
I only became aware of bulk/cut cycles in the 80's and they were for the elite few bodybuilders who we assumed were on PEDs - never met anyone in a gym actually doing them at that time. Training was primarily for strength and for sport rather than aesthetics.
Body shapes were also very different on the whole without the obsession for leanness and six packs there is now.
The power lifter shape (big, strong but not lean) was far more common then amongst serious strength trainers than it is now.
The pendulum has swung an amazing amount in my training lifetime.
I'm not anti bulk/cut cycles but do think they are overused and over-hyped for many people.
I've only been training for two years but in my experience eating and food have not been separate from each other. When I still had to lose 50 pounds and I first stepped in A gym, I got stronger really fast for a while. Getting used to exercise and all. Then it stopped, still at baby weights for all the lifts. I was training regularly with a good routine, getting good nutrition and Rest. The only thing was that I was eating in A deficit.
When I reached my goal and started maintaining, I got stronger again for a bit maybe because more glycogen was available Or whatever. That stopped too, much faster than the first newbie gains. Now I'm gaining and feel like I'm getting stronger a lot faster again, time will tell.
People are very different in how they react to training in a deficit and it sounds like you are sensitive to it - so it will impact your gym performance and hence results.
I'm definitely not sensitive to a moderate deficit (added 80lbs to my bench press and cycled my first 100 miler while losing weight for example). Fasted training isn't a problem for me in performance terms and I've never considered taking a pre-workout.
It's part of why I dislike blanket advice, absolute assertions or one size fits all approaches.
Bulk/cut could well be ideal for you to enjoy training in a surplus and make fast progress and then endure cutting and try to hang on to the progress made.
For me bulking is pointless, my potential progress is limited by age, injuries and training years (rather than calories) so recomp is best for me.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »A lot of this is over my head, admittedly, but can some of the more knowledgeable posters put some caveats regarding the context of possibilities for the gaining of muscle in a deficit to happen -- in plain speak -- before the people who do hot yoga and walking and claim to be getting mad gainz start saying "yeah, but Side Steel said..."
Because I can guarantee you that's going to happen.
One complication is that obviously nobody can say conclusively whether or not someone can gain muscle in a deficit. We can only really talk about factors that may influence whether or not it will happen.
I can't even say conclusively whether or not the client I'm referring to in this post, gained actual muscle vs non contractile lbm. I THINK he did of course, but I can't prove it or claim it with accuracy.
Anyway, leanness, training experience, genetics (p-ratio and individual recoverability from training are probably huge), how well the training program is set up, how well the diet is set up (deficit size, protein intake, etc).
And of course if the goal is maximal muscle gain then eating in a deficit isn't going to be the solution to that -- but that's different from telling someone "you can't build muscle in a deficit".
The way I tend to think of it is that on a per meal basis, your body takes in food and partitions those nutrients where it needs to. As Eric Helms mentions in the video linked earlier, there's really no biological basis to claim that you can't gain muscle in a deficit since energy balance is not tissue specific.
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I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
http://core.ac.uk/download/files/35/271428.pdf shows them gaining fat-free mass and losing fat over the same period.
Very interesting. Thanks, @yarwell .
@tomatoeyI think the idea that it's "impossible" to gain muscle at maintenance or deficit must come from bodybuilding's popular bulk/cut regime - which may be *optimal* for massive muscle growth but probably isn't required to see growth of a few inches. What did people do before before this trend? I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
I started training in the 70's.
We just went to the gym and trained. Initially you got stronger, you carried on and your muscles grew.
Diet was virtually completely distinct from exercise and training, If you wanted to lose weight as part of "getting in shape" you simply ate less. My muscle growth was in line with my training - not my diet.
I only became aware of bulk/cut cycles in the 80's and they were for the elite few bodybuilders who we assumed were on PEDs - never met anyone in a gym actually doing them at that time. Training was primarily for strength and for sport rather than aesthetics.
Body shapes were also very different on the whole without the obsession for leanness and six packs there is now.
The power lifter shape (big, strong but not lean) was far more common then amongst serious strength trainers than it is now.
The pendulum has swung an amazing amount in my training lifetime.
I'm not anti bulk/cut cycles but do think they are overused and over-hyped for many people.
@sijomial - I see, thank you.
Yes, it does seem possible that the contemporary aesthetic might demand a more extreme (& bipolar) approach to eating. (Or probable, since people are getting these effects, and that's how they're going about it.)0 -
I think the idea that it's "impossible" to gain muscle at maintenance or deficit must come from bodybuilding's popular bulk/cut regime - which may be *optimal* for massive muscle growth but probably isn't required to see growth of a few inches. What did people do before before this trend? I'm also curious to know what happens to army recruits, for example.
For someone who is approaching their ultimate genetic potential, they really can't build in a deficit - a surplus promotes muscle growth while a deficit inhibits it. Of course, this is by no means the only promoter/inhibitor, just one of many. When near the peak of one's potential, you really need the stars to align perfectly to get those last few percent of gains.
When you're far from your body's potential, you don't need anywhere near perfect conditions to see gains. It's fine if some factors inhibit muscle growth as long as other factors that promote growth have a stronger net effect.
In short, I think it's an observation that is very true for a certain set of the population, but which is erroneously applied to a much larger set of the population for which the observation no longer holds true.0 -
rankinsect wrote: »For someone who is approaching their ultimate genetic potential, they really can't build in a deficit - a surplus promotes muscle growth while a deficit inhibits it. Of course, this is by no means the only promoter/inhibitor, just one of many. When near the peak of one's potential, you really need the stars to align perfectly to get those last few percent of gains.
I am hung up on a couple of aspects - firstly what is the time frame for this surplus or deficit. What physiological parameters differentiate the two states.
Secondly, no amount of fat or carbs ever becomes protein so is it not possible to be in a caloric surplus and protein deficient (like the fat policemen perhaps were).
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I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy0 -
I think the whole "can't gain muscle with a calorie deficit" is greatly oversimplified. I think this is one of those (common) issues when a finding in the elite is overgeneralized to the average exerciser. In my experience, there is nothing unusual or uncommon in the results you have observed. No more complicated than that.
Good point.
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rankinsect wrote: »For someone who is approaching their ultimate genetic potential, they really can't build in a deficit - a surplus promotes muscle growth while a deficit inhibits it. Of course, this is by no means the only promoter/inhibitor, just one of many. When near the peak of one's potential, you really need the stars to align perfectly to get those last few percent of gains.
I am hung up on a couple of aspects - firstly what is the time frame for this surplus or deficit. What physiological parameters differentiate the two states.
Secondly, no amount of fat or carbs ever becomes protein so is it not possible to be in a caloric surplus and protein deficient (like the fat policemen perhaps were).
Unless you go out of your way to eat low protein, not really. 60 g of protein which is about the absolute minimum to not be deficient (0.8 g / kg at 70 kg lbm for a pretty average person, I rounded up) has only 240 kcal, rather unlikely to not get at least that much on a surplus.0 -
I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
+1
This is what I was driving at in my post. Thanks for elaborating for me, rabbit.0 -
Very interesting observation @SideSteel .
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I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
The post itself is simply an observation.
I don't have any objection to it being moved though, if it would be better served in a different sub forum.
Regarding threads you're referring to I can and do see it go both ways.
The counter point I'd like to make is that because these people are usually overweight beginners, they are a primary candidate for short term muscle gains in a deficit. But they are sometimes met with a simple "nope, can't be done"
At any rate though, context needs to be applied.
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I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
The post itself is simply an observation.
I don't have any objection to it being moved though, if it would be better served in a different sub forum.
Regarding threads you're referring to I can and do see it go both ways.
The counter point I'd like to make is that because these people are usually overweight beginners, they are a primary candidate for short term muscle gains in a deficit. But they are sometimes met with a simple "nope, can't be done"
At any rate though, context needs to be applied.
Overweight beginners following a structured progressive resistance programme are not that common from what I've seen personally
But yes context is king and I'm not disputing your observation, in fact I probably I personally experienced hypertrophy in defecit as a new lifter ...but that wasn't my focus, it was all about the weight loss and easily masked by the drop in fat and fall on the scales
... I suppose it's all about perspective ..if I'm looking for muscle gain maybe I'll see it, if I'm looking for weight loss then it is not beneficial because in defecit, with enough to lose, I'm not going to put on more muscle than overall weight loss
Not sure that makes sense, but it does in my head0 -
I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
The post itself is simply an observation.
I don't have any objection to it being moved though, if it would be better served in a different sub forum.
Regarding threads you're referring to I can and do see it go both ways.
The counter point I'd like to make is that because these people are usually overweight beginners, they are a primary candidate for short term muscle gains in a deficit. But they are sometimes met with a simple "nope, can't be done"
At any rate though, context needs to be applied.
I tend to think we have a good amount of over simplification on these boards from our own personal experiences and available (limited) studies. I do believe, that if provided adequate nutrition and the appropriate resistance program, that it is possible to gain some muscle in a deficit. But for the majority of MFP users, who are doing this on their own, it's probably not going to be a common outcome.
ps - if you feel this should move, let me know.0 -
I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
I don't see where any useful purpose is served by suppressing information because it doesn't fit a comfortable/cliched narrative. Or by making the assumption that the "potential audience" is too stupid to understand nuance.
There are a lot of "sayings" that have evolved into a kind of a canonical scripture on these forums. "You can't gain muscle on a deficit" is one of them. While not entirely incorrect, they are not entirely correct either. When wielded indiscriminately, they can obfuscate more than inform.
I was pleased to read sidesteel's original comments because I knew, coming from him, they would be insightful, taken seriously, and would stimulate a more informed discussion than we usually have on this topic.
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I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
The post itself is simply an observation.
I don't have any objection to it being moved though, if it would be better served in a different sub forum.
Regarding threads you're referring to I can and do see it go both ways.
The counter point I'd like to make is that because these people are usually overweight beginners, they are a primary candidate for short term muscle gains in a deficit. But they are sometimes met with a simple "nope, can't be done"
At any rate though, context needs to be applied.
I tend to think we have a good amount of over simplification on these boards from our own personal experiences and available (limited) studies. I do believe, that if provided adequate nutrition and the appropriate resistance program, that it is possible to gain some muscle in a deficit. But for the majority of MFP users, who are doing this on their own, it's probably not going to be a common outcome.
ps - if you feel this should move, let me know.
I posted it here because the intent was for general discussion but I'm okay with it going elsewhere. I'll leave that up to moderator discretion.
Hopefully I've laid my thoughts out on this clearly enough that it's not going to be misconstrued as definitive proof that everyone is going to pack on slabs of muscle in a deficit. Having said that, Azdak mentioned something earlier in this thread that I agree with fully pertaining to how information gets taken from a given population and then applied without context as blanket advice.0 -
I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
I don't see where any useful purpose is served by suppressing information because it doesn't fit a comfortable/cliched narrative. Or by making the assumption that the "potential audience" is too stupid to understand nuance.
There are a lot of "sayings" that have evolved into a kind of a canonical scripture on these forums. "You can't gain muscle on a deficit" is one of them. While not entirely incorrect, they are not entirely correct either. When wielded indiscriminately, they can obfuscate more than inform.
I was pleased to read sidesteel's original comments because I knew, coming from him, they would be insightful, taken seriously, and would stimulating a more informed discussion than we usually have on this topic.
Thanks, and you're basically describing one reason why I posted it even though (as mentioned a few times) I know this is mere observation.
I also think that the "cant build muscle in a deficit" statement is thrown around a bit generously when the reality is that it's not that simple.
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I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
The post itself is simply an observation.
I don't have any objection to it being moved though, if it would be better served in a different sub forum.
Regarding threads you're referring to I can and do see it go both ways.
The counter point I'd like to make is that because these people are usually overweight beginners, they are a primary candidate for short term muscle gains in a deficit. But they are sometimes met with a simple "nope, can't be done"
At any rate though, context needs to be applied.
I tend to think we have a good amount of over simplification on these boards from our own personal experiences and available (limited) studies. I do believe, that if provided adequate nutrition and the appropriate resistance program, that it is possible to gain some muscle in a deficit. But for the majority of MFP users, who are doing this on their own, it's probably not going to be a common outcome.
ps - if you feel this should move, let me know.
I posted it here because the intent was for general discussion but I'm okay with it going elsewhere. I'll leave that up to moderator discretion.
Hopefully I've laid my thoughts out on this clearly enough that it's not going to be misconstrued as definitive proof that everyone is going to pack on slabs of muscle in a deficit. Having said that, Azdak mentioned something earlier in this thread that I agree with fully pertaining to how information gets taken from a given population and then applied without context as blanket advice.
I will leave it here for now.
And I definitely agree with the bold.0 -
I appreciate this post but have to say I believe it's misplaced
There are a lot of posts on this board specifically about plateaus in weight loss and people who post about muscle gain in defecit give the oft repeated "you're not losing weight because you're gaining muscle"
Few of those who post for advice are following decent structured progressive resistance programmes and few of those who give the "you're gaining muscle" line know what they are talking about. Probably that's because this board appeals more to beginners and those focusing on weight and not weight training
In the vast majority of cases the answer to those threads is not gaining muscle in defecit
I think when someone with your reputation @sidesteel posts this in the general board and not fitness or gains specific it may serve to muddy the waters and add further confusion to the "why am I not losing weight" bleat
The tone and advice of this is different from your amazing Keep it simple sexypants thread ...and I think that's based on the potential audience for the message...this board has never struck me as a jumping off point for those interested in hypertrophy
I don't see where any useful purpose is served by suppressing information because it doesn't fit a comfortable/cliched narrative. Or by making the assumption that the "potential audience" is too stupid to understand nuance.
There are a lot of "sayings" that have evolved into a kind of a canonical scripture on these forums. "You can't gain muscle on a deficit" is one of them. While not entirely incorrect, they are not entirely correct either. When wielded indiscriminately, they can obfuscate more than inform.
I was pleased to read sidesteel's original comments because I knew, coming from him, they would be insightful, taken seriously, and would stimulating a more informed discussion than we usually have on this topic.
Nobody is trying to suppress information. And I don't think it is cliched to surmise that in the realm of new dieters concerned about stalls or plateaus then putting muscle on in defecit is clearly not going to be part of their narrative ..these are not experienced lifters or people who are close to lean. This is not to say that anybody is stupid.
I personally feel that simplifying things is more appropriate 90% of the time. And that isn't obfuscating.
But the discussion is interesting
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