5 x 5, 5/3/1

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  • AllanMisner
    AllanMisner Posts: 4,140 Member
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    Scamd83 wrote: »
    @AllanMisner Thanks, by the way does body type make any impact on results? I keep reading certain types of 'morphs (I forget the exact terms) need to do higher reps and avoid cutting/bulking phases.

    There are three main muscle attributes along a continuum. Strength comes from lifting heavy for low reps (1 - 5). Muscle hypertrophy comes from lifting moderate to heavy weights for moderate reps (5 - 10). Muscle endurance comes form lifting light to moderate weights for higher reps (10 - 100+). Yes, there is some bleed through each, so higher reps may still give you some muscle mass improvements and maybe a little strength improvement, but if you want the best results, lift in the ranges that produce what you’re after. When I’m cutting, I do tend to go with the 5x5 to focus on strength and muscle mass retention. When I’m not cutting, I often opt for more of the 5, 3, 1 approach.

    When I do high reps for a period of time, I lose strength and at this point in my life, I don’t gain any muscle mass. Your body may react differently, especially being younger and relatively “untrained.” I think a lot of people go to higher reps thinking it will burn calories. Well, if you’re running a deficit, you’re running a deficit. There’s no reason to burn more to eat more, and can actually make keeping the weight off harder later. I would opt for a program that will help you gain/retain muscle mass and build strength, which both of the programs do.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    AllanMisner wrote: »
    Scamd83 wrote: »
    @AllanMisner Thanks, by the way does body type make any impact on results? I keep reading certain types of 'morphs (I forget the exact terms) need to do higher reps and avoid cutting/bulking phases.

    There are three main muscle attributes along a continuum. Strength comes from lifting heavy for low reps (1 - 5). Muscle hypertrophy comes from lifting moderate to heavy weights for moderate reps (5 - 10). Muscle endurance comes form lifting light to moderate weights for higher reps (10 - 100+). Yes, there is some bleed through each, so higher reps may still give you some muscle mass improvements and maybe a little strength improvement, but if you want the best results, lift in the ranges that produce what you’re after. When I’m cutting, I do tend to go with the 5x5 to focus on strength and muscle mass retention. When I’m not cutting, I often opt for more of the 5, 3, 1 approach.

    When I do high reps for a period of time, I lose strength and at this point in my life, I don’t gain any muscle mass. Your body may react differently, especially being younger and relatively “untrained.” I think a lot of people go to higher reps thinking it will burn calories. Well, if you’re running a deficit, you’re running a deficit. There’s no reason to burn more to eat more, and can actually make keeping the weight off harder later. I would opt for a program that will help you gain/retain muscle mass and build strength, which both of the programs do.

    Allan Misner
    NASM Certified Personal Trainer (Corrective Exercise Specialist, Fitness Nutrition Specialist)
    Host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast

    I would actually question how we define rep ranges like this to some degree -- Schoenfeld has some pretty interesting research showing similar increases to hypertrophy while using low rep ranges when volume is equated.

    Granted, accumulating volume in a higher rep range is likely safer and faster, but strength gains don't tend to be as good.

    Fortunately, we aren't limited to one rep range.
  • Scamd83
    Scamd83 Posts: 808 Member
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    @hanymamdouh On a non fasting day do you eat to instinct? If so do you do something like three main meals and two protein based snacks?

    @ovidnine Thanks, that's quite a read (I like reading up on stuff), think it'll take me a few goes to take in all of that. I signed up for the mailing list and downloaded the program spreadsheet. Think it might take some time to fully understand it.

    @loulamb7 Thanks.

    @SideSteel @AllanMisner So 5 x 5 and 5/3/1 can also be used for hypertrophy as well as strength even if it's just three days a week you're lifting for?

  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    Scamd83 wrote: »
    @hanymamdouh On a non fasting day do you eat to instinct? If so do you do something like three main meals and two protein based snacks?

    @ovidnine Thanks, that's quite a read (I like reading up on stuff), think it'll take me a few goes to take in all of that. I signed up for the mailing list and downloaded the program spreadsheet. Think it might take some time to fully understand it.

    @loulamb7 Thanks.

    @SideSteel @AllanMisner So 5 x 5 and 5/3/1 can also be used for hypertrophy as well as strength even if it's just three days a week you're lifting for?

    You could provided training volume is adequate. I'm not a big fan of 5/3/1 how most people set it up but it's certainly possible.
  • Scamd83
    Scamd83 Posts: 808 Member
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    @SideSteel How would you set it up?
  • hanymamdouh
    hanymamdouh Posts: 123 Member
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    @Scamd83 On non fasting days I try to eat clean as much as possible without hindering my gains. Usually I eat 3 main meals with 1 snack. All of my meals revolve around protein. I'm not fan of protein powder as it lefts me hungry and leads to binge. Instead I opt for whole food which is really makes me full and regulates hormones. Don't sacrifice whole food benefits for protein powder. Whole food is full of nutrients other than protein. It is your wise choice that makes whole food more beneficial.
  • Scamd83
    Scamd83 Posts: 808 Member
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    @hanymamdouh I only usually have protein powder if it's mixed into something like cottage cheese, yogurt or oats. On the subject of food, do you spread your carbs about or focus them before/after a workout or 'backload' all of them post workout?
  • hanymamdouh
    hanymamdouh Posts: 123 Member
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    @Scamd83 I tried all methods regarding to carb timing, I also did Cyclical Ketogenic Diet for 3 months, my conclusion is; it depends on your daily energy expenditure, workout style, and goals. To be more clear:

    * for workout days all of my carbs are concentrated around workout (pre / post) and at breakfast
    * for active recovery days that follow intense workout day; carbs are spread allover the day, but total amount is reduced.
    * for passive recovery days I limit carb intake as much as possible, only vegetables are consumed.
    * If you are following moderate workout program with moderate intensity you can limit your carbs for whole week to its minimum (but not low enough to enter keto state), then have structured refeed once per week on your passive recovery day. The refeed must be structured; i.e, high carb/low fat. All carbs should come from good selections as much as you can.

    Hope this help
  • hanymamdouh
    hanymamdouh Posts: 123 Member
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    Gustaaf85 wrote: »
    hanymamdouh wrote: »
    @Scamd83 5/2 diet for lifters is very easy and effective diet. Briefly; you eat your normal diet 5 days a week; counting or non counting your calories, just do whatever you do. For other two days you only eat 2 meals; each meal is 400 kcal only, with 12 hours in between. So for example; if your breakfast is at 07:00AM, your second and last meal will be at 07:00PM. Total of the day is 800 kcal only. Nothing is allowed between meals except drinks (unsweetened of course!); tea, coffee, green tea, etc. It is some sort of fasting. The low days must not be consecutive days and shouldn't be training days.

    I got great results from 5/2 diet and it is very easy as you really need those two low days at least to relax you digestive system.

    Regarding to SL5x5, yes it can be used by anyone; whether beginner or expert. The program revolves around progressively increasing strength gains over long run. Its core is strength not mass nor hypertrophy. I believe that SL5x5 is the best program for anyone who has no goal to achieve except keeping/improving his strength gains with minimum effort. On the other side 5/3/1 is a program for someone who needs to challenge himself and have goals on the short run.

    For me, I'm doing 5/3/1 for current year to improve my strength, once get my goal done I will switch to SL5x5 to keep those gains stable and improve them in a steady way without stresses.

    Thanks for this, very clear! Could use this info as i am fairly new to lifting (started last year)

    @Gustaaf85 You are fine man :) PM me if you need anything.
  • McCloud33
    McCloud33 Posts: 959 Member
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    Scamd83 wrote: »
    @McCloud33 Would 3 x 5 still leave enough volume to be effective?

    @Scamd83 Yes, 3x5 is enough volume, especially since you're on a cut. You're more interested in just holding on to the muscle you have and not building new muscle since you're in a deficit.

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