Fathead the Movie - your thoughts?

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  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
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    I watched this movie last week, and the views on CHO and insulin made me cringe.
  • End6ame
    End6ame Posts: 903
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    I don't know, they poop it out? All I know is what I know. I don't really feel like arguing a point that I'm not an expert on. Like I said though, I've got plenty of empirical evidence to back up my statement.
    What? Is that serious?

    Feel free to produce some of that empirical evidence as I have clearly presented mine. Especially any empirical evidence that supports the claims made in Fathead. THAT would be nice to see.

    Maybe not the carb/insulin portion (I don’t know enough on the matter to really comment) but there is evidence that supports that the lipid hypothesis (saturated fat leading to CHD) is completely bogus, which was discussed in the movie. The link I posted above has great information with references on this topic.

    There is also some information here (no sources though) that talks about saturated fat not being related to CHD and other problems as once was thought.

    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400919/Rethinking-Saturated-Fat.html
  • ilsie99
    ilsie99 Posts: 259
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    I don't know, they poop it out? All I know is what I know. I don't really feel like arguing a point that I'm not an expert on. Like I said though, I've got plenty of empirical evidence to back up my statement.
    What? Is that serious?

    Feel free to produce some of that empirical evidence as I have clearly presented mine. Especially any empirical evidence that supports the claims made in Fathead. THAT would be nice to see.

    LOL, look up what "empirical" means. I already told you that in my marathon training, my observations over several years and talking to many other marathon runners is that carb loading does nothing. If what you said was true then anybody who ate a pasta dinner the night before the race would never hit the wall.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    Maybe not the carb/insulin portion (I don’t know enough on the matter to really comment) but there is evidence that supports that the lipid hypothesis (saturated fat leading to CHD) is completely bogus, which was discussed in the movie. The link I posted above has great information with references on this topic.

    There is also some information here (no sources though) that talks about saturated fat not being related to CHD and other problems as once was thought.

    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400919/Rethinking-Saturated-Fat.html
    Yep, couldn't agree more about saturated fat not being the demon people once thought it was. I have no quarrel with this movie clearing that myth up.

    However, it traded one demon for another, and it did so without proper empirical evidence backing that claim. Trading in fat-phobia for carb-phobia.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    LOL, look up what "empirical" means. I already told you that in my marathon training, my observations over several years and talking to many other marathon runners is that carb loading does nothing. If what you said was true then anybody who ate a pasta dinner the night before the race would never hit the wall.
    Strong misunderstanding of physiology.

    Go run a marathon while eating a ketogenic diet, then eating moderate carbs, maybe 200g per day, then eating 800g per day. Carb loading doesn't stop one from going bonk and it doesn't prevent muscle fatigue, but having glycogen stores filled compared to anything but filled does result in a difference in performance.
  • ilsie99
    ilsie99 Posts: 259
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    LOL, look up what "empirical" means. I already told you that in my marathon training, my observations over several years and talking to many other marathon runners is that carb loading does nothing. If what you said was true then anybody who ate a pasta dinner the night before the race would never hit the wall.
    Strong misunderstanding of physiology.

    Go run a marathon while eating a ketogenic diet, then eating moderate carbs, maybe 200g per day, then eating 800g per day. Carb loading doesn't stop one from going bonk and it doesn't prevent muscle fatigue, but having glycogen stores filled compared to anything but filled does result in a difference in performance.

    Again, please enlighten me on my strong misunderstanding. When I've bonked, my understanding is that my muscles have run out of glycogen and my body can't keep up the gluconeogenesis process as fast as I'm consuming.

    So why would it be untoward of me to think that if, like you said, I could store 500 extra grams worth of carbs as muscle glycogen, then I would never bonk?

    http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_wellness/tno_nutritionarticle_12.asp
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    Again, please enlighten me on my strong misunderstanding. When I've bonked, my understanding is that my muscles have run out of glycogen and my body can't keep up the gluconeogenesis process as fast as I'm consuming.

    So why would it be untoward of me to think that if, like you said, I could store 500 extra grams worth of carbs as muscle glycogen, then I would never bonk?

    http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_wellness/tno_nutritionarticle_12.asp
    Do you know the difference between liver and muscle glycogen?
  • ilsie99
    ilsie99 Posts: 259
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    Do you know the difference between liver and muscle glycogen?

    I think so... Liver glycogen is used for keeping you alive and is available to the whole body, while muscle glycogen is used locally by only that specific muscle, like for running.
  • ilsie99
    ilsie99 Posts: 259
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    Is that relevant to the discussion of me not hitting the wall? Glycogen debt in endurance athletes occurs when both liver and muscle glycogen is all used up.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    Is that relevant to the discussion of me not hitting the wall? Glycogen debt in endurance athletes occurs when both liver and muscle glycogen is all used up.
    Just making sure. Liver glycogen is an anabolic mediator, and as such does play a role in fatigue.

    Perhaps you're more untrained than people who run regularly, and as such your glycogen capacity may differ, but most [trained] people who run a marathon don't need to take GU or Gatorade to prevent hitting a wall.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    Double post.
  • Barneystinson
    Barneystinson Posts: 1,357 Member
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    What I took from this movie is that we've placed just a little too much fear and blame on our fast food industry when not all choices are bad, nor add up to Spurlock's overstated calorie intake in Supersize Me.

    Was anyone else a little iffy about Supersize Me's "claims" ??? I remember glancing at a menu / calorie information for McD's years ago when that movie was big and thinking... Uhhh...something doesn't add up here.
  • ilsie99
    ilsie99 Posts: 259
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    Is that relevant to the discussion of me not hitting the wall? Glycogen debt in endurance athletes occurs when both liver and muscle glycogen is all used up.
    Just making sure. Liver glycogen is an anabolic mediator, and as such does play a role in fatigue.

    Perhaps you're more untrained than people who run regularly, and as such your glycogen capacity may differ, but most [trained] people who run a marathon don't need to take GU or Gatorade to prevent hitting a wall.

    Oh, that's just priceless. Deena Kastor eats gels. Dathan Ritzenheim eats gels. Every elite endurance athelete drinks carb drink. Lance Armstrong ate twelve of them on his first marathon and he still bonked.
  • mapexdrummer69
    mapexdrummer69 Posts: 445
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    What I took from this movie is that we've placed just a little too much fear and blame on our fast food industry when not all choices are bad, nor add up to Spurlock's overstated calorie intake in Supersize Me.

    Was anyone else a little iffy about Supersize Me's "claims" ??? I remember glancing at a menu / calorie information for McD's years ago when that movie was big and thinking... Uhhh...something doesn't add up here.


    I had nowhere near the understanding of nutrition that I do now, so nothing really set me off. I just took it as gospel and quit consuming the devil known as McDonald's...


    Looking back, what an idiot.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    Oh, that's just priceless. Deena Kastor eats gels. Dathan Ritzenheim eats gels. Every elite endurance athelete drinks carb drink. Lance Armstrong ate twelve of them on his first marathon and he still bonked.
    There's a difference between heightening performance and preventing going bonk (which is, by the way, a term more reserved for cyclists).

    Metabolizing dietary sugar in the bloodstream is less energy-tasking and faster than glycogenolysis.
  • Barneystinson
    Barneystinson Posts: 1,357 Member
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    What I took from this movie is that we've placed just a little too much fear and blame on our fast food industry when not all choices are bad, nor add up to Spurlock's overstated calorie intake in Supersize Me.

    Was anyone else a little iffy about Supersize Me's "claims" ??? I remember glancing at a menu / calorie information for McD's years ago when that movie was big and thinking... Uhhh...something doesn't add up here.


    I had nowhere near the understanding of nutrition that I do now, so nothing really set me off. I just took it as gospel and quit consuming the devil known as McDonald's...


    Looking back, what an idiot.

    I think maybe the deal with Supersize Me is that it rubbed me as being vegetarian propaganda. Interesting, though, McD's has come out with a wider variety of food options since it was released.
  • mynameisuntz
    mynameisuntz Posts: 582 Member
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    Furthermore, it seems this discussion has gotten off-track. I've made my claims and supported them with empirical evidence. We're talking about the extremes of glycogen compensation, rather than the practical application of it in a person trying to be healthy, exercise, and lose weight.

    I made the point that our glycogen holds a lot before carbs are converted to fat, presented evidence, and you disagreed. You have provided no counter-evidence, and instead deviated about endurance athletes and glycogen supercompensation. Which, again, has no real bearing on my initial statements.

    If you disagree with my points earlier, specifically this:
    "Your storage sites for carbohydrates are limited, and we've got unlimited storage places for fat, so the body just ends up converting the carbohydrate to fat."

    1) Not true if you eat at a caloric deficit, doc.
    2) Did we just skip the fact that carbs are stored as glycogen? Like, do you know how much our glycogen can store?
    3) Even if you eat at a caloric surplus, DNL (de novo lipogenesis - the metabolic pathway that converts glucose to fat) is rather inactive in humans. See research study below:

    "Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia."

    -Acheson KJ et al. Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7. Institute of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Lausanne, Switzerland.

    Feel free to refute it with proper evidence.
  • DJmom44
    DJmom44 Posts: 91
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    bump for later
  • TK421NotAtPost
    TK421NotAtPost Posts: 512 Member
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    Everything he says after mentioning "Gary Taubes" can pretty much be ignored. Any time he mentions insulin, just turn on "ignore mode" in your brain.

    Gary Taubes' book is based on some bad premises. He believes the obese don't eat any more than the lean, and therefore insulin is the culprit, not calories....and then he cherry picks the scientific literature to "prove" his point.
  • ilsie99
    ilsie99 Posts: 259
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    If you disagree with my points earlier, specifically this:
    "Your storage sites for carbohydrates are limited, and we've got unlimited storage places for fat, so the body just ends up converting the carbohydrate to fat."

    1) Not true if you eat at a caloric deficit, doc.
    2) Did we just skip the fact that carbs are stored as glycogen? Like, do you know how much our glycogen can store?
    3) Even if you eat at a caloric surplus, DNL (de novo lipogenesis - the metabolic pathway that converts glucose to fat) is rather inactive in humans. See research study below:

    "Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia."

    -Acheson KJ et al. Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7. Institute of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Lausanne, Switzerland.

    Feel free to refute it with proper evidence.

    I'm not sure if you're just feeling argumentative (I would say yes based on your statement that only "untrained" runners need to refuel mid-marathon) but I was actually agreeing with you if you go back through the thread.

    The part that I said I did not get, which I was backing up with my own experience and made rather clear that I'm not an expert on the subject- was the part about being able to store an incredible surplus of glycogen (500g of carbs worth, or 2000 calories). Which I asked you for clarity on, and I might add, you never gave.

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