Running and the wall

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yirara
yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
I've been running since 1. March 2015. Until recently though I didn't manage to increase distance or speed as I was living in a country with somewhat extreme weather (42 C / 108 F after sunset). Since leaving my running has slowly gotten faster and the distances have increased. Today I did my longest run ever at 12km, 7.5 miles, of which I actually ran some 9.4km.

However, there's a little thing that simple doesn't really improve: as long as the road is completely flat I'm fine. But with just a tiny bit upwards (talking about 5 meters /15ft here!) it feels like I'm running into a wall. Same when I run downhill and the road levels out to flat, or when the road tilts a bit sideways. This is massively emphasized when I'm already running for around 7-8km. My energy levels drop, my legs get heavy and turn into rubber from one second to another, and I have a funny feeling in my chest similar to the lightheadedness you get when you stand up too quickly with a low blood pressure, but not in the head but chest.

Is this ever getting better? How can I fill up my energy even on such a short run?
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Replies

  • beemerphile1
    beemerphile1 Posts: 1,710 Member
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    I love hills.

    On uphills pump your arms vigorously, your legs will follow.

    On downhills relax your arms even to the point of flailing them at your sides. Do not lean back against the hill, remain upright and enjoy the gravity.

    As to the funny feeling in your chest and light headedness, maybe you should consult a doctor. When was your last full physical exam?
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
    edited February 2016
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    Hi beemerphile,
    I tried everything with hills, and every time I cash down. Today it wasn't even a hill 2km from home but a tiny bridge with maybe 5ft increase in height. *sigh* I have no idea...

    I really think it's an energy issue. I've never been able to go long without food, but at the same time I cannot run right after having eating as it gives me side stitches. So running a bit, and my energy levels just seem to drop big time.

    Yes, medical not too long ago. I'm healthy.
  • e5412
    e5412 Posts: 17 Member
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    Not sure how long you are out running for. My rule of thumb is if it's over 1.25-1.5 hours, then it needs fuel. Just before I run and then every 40-45 minutes you could use a gel or chews or whatever you like. If I'm racing, then before and every 30 minutes. You could tweak it to fit your needs, but I wouldn't overdo it because of the calories.

    Hills can be as much of a mental obstacle as a physical one. You can practice running them in your workout and do other cross training exercises to get your legs strong and that might help your confidence too.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
    edited February 2016
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    Hmm.. what is a gel exactly? I've heard this before but think of a sweet sugary thingy, but maybe I'm wrong. Does it work at all? I thought in order to use carbs stored in muscles they need to be digested first. Just a few minutes before breakdown, or even 45 minutes sounds a bit too little time for that. Mind explaining?

    Today's 12k was 98mins, I'm not a fast runner, and the wall came at around 7km. Thus that's probably at around 40 minutes *sigh* Never been one of those people who could go without food for a long time, and the 'wall' always comes within minutes also when I'm not working out. Wait a bit too long with eating and I feel miserable for hours. Not (pre) diabetic though.
  • shmulyeng
    shmulyeng Posts: 472 Member
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    Are you monitoring your pace? Be aware of your pace and force yourself to slow down at the hills. If you wait until you feel the need to slow down, you missed the boat. As soon as the hill starts, take it easy. About the fueling, I usually feel the need to fuel at the 45 minute mark. I can stretch it to about 55 minutes if I'm ending there. Carry a gel with you and take it at the 40 minute mark.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    shmulyeng wrote: »
    Are you monitoring your pace? Be aware of your pace and force yourself to slow down at the hills. If you wait until you feel the need to slow down, you missed the boat. As soon as the hill starts, take it easy. About the fueling, I usually feel the need to fuel at the 45 minute mark. I can stretch it to about 55 minutes if I'm ending there. Carry a gel with you and take it at the 40 minute mark.

    Oh yes, I do slow down. I don't even need to slow down because it happens automatically. Big time.

    Are there alternatives to gels? I hate everything really sweet and artificial tasting, and from what I've been reading a gel is exactly this.
  • e5412
    e5412 Posts: 17 Member
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    Something like these but not necessarily these exclusively. You need to figure out what works for you. I suppose they are sweet and sugary, but they have other things in them that will help replenish what you burn when you run. If you have a local running shoe store, I'm sure they would help you out. It seems kinda early to be hitting a wall like that, but if the temps are that high, I know that would zap it out of me that much quicker too.

    humagel.com/
    https://guenergy.com/
  • michellemybelll
    michellemybelll Posts: 2,228 Member
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    it sounds like it might just be a conditioning issue. You haven't even been running for one year. Give it time, and break down the wall.
  • kristinegift
    kristinegift Posts: 2,406 Member
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    yirara wrote: »
    shmulyeng wrote: »
    Are you monitoring your pace? Be aware of your pace and force yourself to slow down at the hills. If you wait until you feel the need to slow down, you missed the boat. As soon as the hill starts, take it easy. About the fueling, I usually feel the need to fuel at the 45 minute mark. I can stretch it to about 55 minutes if I'm ending there. Carry a gel with you and take it at the 40 minute mark.

    Oh yes, I do slow down. I don't even need to slow down because it happens automatically. Big time.

    Are there alternatives to gels? I hate everything really sweet and artificial tasting, and from what I've been reading a gel is exactly this.

    When I do long runs I switch up gels with dried fruit (usually cranberries and pineapple). You could try something like that; either eat right before you go out or take some to snack on halfway through with some water.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    yirara wrote: »
    shmulyeng wrote: »
    Are you monitoring your pace? Be aware of your pace and force yourself to slow down at the hills. If you wait until you feel the need to slow down, you missed the boat. As soon as the hill starts, take it easy. About the fueling, I usually feel the need to fuel at the 45 minute mark. I can stretch it to about 55 minutes if I'm ending there. Carry a gel with you and take it at the 40 minute mark.

    Oh yes, I do slow down. I don't even need to slow down because it happens automatically. Big time.

    Are there alternatives to gels? I hate everything really sweet and artificial tasting, and from what I've been reading a gel is exactly this.

    When I do long runs I switch up gels with dried fruit (usually cranberries and pineapple). You could try something like that; either eat right before you go out or take some to snack on halfway through with some water.

    Cool, good idea. I will certainly try this.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    it sounds like it might just be a conditioning issue. You haven't even been running for one year. Give it time, and break down the wall.

    That's what I've been wondering. Is it just being unfit? Been to the middle east in January and there running was so much easier for me: I could just go on and my pace variation was within 6%. I also didn't find that wall so quickly. Sure, landscape completely flat and pleasant temperatures compared to cool and hilly here, so maybe that's all what it takes to take me down...

  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    e5412 wrote: »
    Something like these but not necessarily these exclusively. You need to figure out what works for you. I suppose they are sweet and sugary, but they have other things in them that will help replenish what you burn when you run. If you have a local running shoe store, I'm sure they would help you out. It seems kinda early to be hitting a wall like that, but if the temps are that high, I know that would zap it out of me that much quicker too.

    humagel.com/
    https://guenergy.com/

    Thanks! No local store at all other that sports direct if you know them.

    Oh, I used to live in the heat but moved in October to northerly europe. Been running hete since November.
  • L_Master
    L_Master Posts: 354 Member
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    yirara wrote: »

    However, there's a little thing that simple doesn't really improve: as long as the road is completely flat I'm fine. But with just a tiny bit upwards (talking about 5 meters /15ft here!) it feels like I'm running into a wall.

    You are. Relatively speaking anyway.
    yirara wrote: »
    This is massively emphasized when I'm already running for around 7-8km.

    This makes sense as well, you're muscles are already becoming fatigued and any changes in effort produce larger numbers of metabolites at a longer stage into a run.
    yirara wrote: »
    My energy levels drop,

    This aspect is more mental than anything. You feel the change in gradient, and know you have to work harder. You can't sustain the same pace, and thus slow down, and interpret this slowdown as a drop in energy.
    yirara wrote: »
    my legs get heavy and turn into rubber from one second to another, and I have a funny feeling in my chest similar to the lightheadedness you get when you stand up too quickly with a low blood pressure, but not in the head but chest.

    You are going too hard on these hills, which causes your legs to turn to rubber. You might feel like you are backing off form them, and probably are, but not sufficiently to match the same effort you were giving on the previous gradient. On even a 4% or 5% gradient you have to go a TON slower than you were on the flat, depending on size, perhaps 50%+ slower. Even more if we are talking solid hills that are 8-10% + in gradient.

    The lightheadedness is the only thing that doesn't jive perfectly well with all the other symptoms. It could be that your posture changes and you are restricting yourself in some way, or that your body is affected by the different landing angle on the hill...but the fact that this happens even when going from downhil back to flat makes me wonder about that.

    The other probable option is that you also are running into some fueling/blood sugar issues. Light headedness is very common to experience when blood sugar is lower, and I know I've experienced it tons of times when I've run pre breakfast (especially whilst trying to lose weight). Probably the best bet would be to practice eating a little more pre run (60-90 minutes before), finding foods that don't cause trouble, and then experimenting with taking a gel or some dried sugary fruit or what have you at 30min and 60 min into the run. That little bit of extra sugar might helped the lightheadness.

    The rest of the issue is that you are clearly not backing off on pace quick enough once you hit the hill. If you were there would be no dramatic shift in perceived difficulty or lightheartedness. For your next run, the second you get to one of these gradient changes, I want you to go so slow it feels like you could walk dramatically faster than you are running. Almost like a joke to see how long it can take you to get over the hill while still maintaining a running gait. Guarantee you won't have most of the problems.

    It is NOT related to fitness or running experience.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    Thanks a lot L_Master. I do go a lot slower on those hills. My current running pace is at around 7:50ish min/km, and I take those with about 10ish. Slower isn't really possible anymore I found as I'd run on the spot. The annoying thing for me is that since I left the heat I'm making good progress with regards to distance and speed but I see no improvement at all uphill. It's the same with walking uphill I guess.. during my study I spent weeks on field work that required lots of walking upwards for several weeks at a time, but I just didn't improve at all, regardless of what I did to stay fit.
  • litsy3
    litsy3 Posts: 783 Member
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    Don't lean forward too much or hunch up when you run up the hill - try to bend slightly at the hips, not higher up. You are probably restricting your breathing as your posture changes and that makes it harder. This would explain why you are fine walking up hills (your posture doesn't change as much) but not running up them.
  • ThickMcRunFast
    ThickMcRunFast Posts: 22,511 Member
    edited February 2016
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    It sounds like a few things:

    One, hills are tough for some people. I still feel (and sound) like wounded cattle running uphill. It takes practice.

    Two, it might be a bit mental. You see an incline and psyche yourself out. Either way, the best way is to slow way down, and get your butt up the hill.

    Three - you shouldn't be having depletion problems with running less than 2-3 hours. If you are, then something is wrong with your everyday nutrition. How many calories are you eating per day?

    Here's a question - if you run a perfectly flat surface, do you feel the same tiredness at 7km? Or can you run longer? If you can go further without feeling that tiredness, its probably more mental and conditioning than nutrition.

    eta: and your posture has to be correct...
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    ThickMc,
    I eat about 1700-1800kcal per day, that's my maintenance level.

    Find it difficult to compare. When I was in Abu Dhabi 3 weeks ago I could run 5-6km, walk for a short moment to relax the muscles below the ribs and get my heartrate down and then run another 2-4km. Only the last bit got difficult. But there it's completely flat.

    Yesterday I managed to get to nearly 6km before I had to walk, but afterwards only managed 800-200m running intervals due to rubbher legs. This seems to be common here. Plus running on roads that tilt just slightly to the side (everything's crooked here ;)) also seems to cost me a lot of energy, however I have a slightly crooked foot and unstable ankles that simply prefer a flat surface.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    Do you think the altitude difference could be having an effect? Sort of exacerbating an existing issue and making it come to light?

    I don't think so. It might be hilly to mountainous here but it's still close to sea level. I do get into troubles very quickly at altitude though. Visited Addis Abeba a while ago and had such problems just walking, and it's just about 2500m above zero. yes, there I really noticed walking up a small incline big time.
  • yirara
    yirara Posts: 9,478 Member
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    *facepalm* might lack of water be a problem? When I was still living in the hot region I always took water along but since moving I never actually did as I have nowhere to store it. To explain: Previously I was wearing a cycling shirt with a pocket above the *kitten*. Now I'm wearing a long sleeve thermal ski shirt and a fleece jacket. Still looking for a windproof alternative but haven't found anything. But anyway, none of my cool weather running clothes have space for even the smallest water bottle. On the other hand, when running in Abu Dhabi at around 20 degrees I also didn't have water and was fine. Hmpf..
  • _Waffle_
    _Waffle_ Posts: 13,049 Member
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    it sounds like it might just be a conditioning issue. You haven't even been running for one year. Give it time, and break down the wall.

    This. You have plenty energy in your body for 2 hours of running even if you don't eat in the morning. Water shouldn't be an issue unless you go over an hour in hot weather. Your legs just don't like what you're doing to them.

    Keep working on it and it will get easier. I used to think hills were a bummer until I switched to doing a run with a few 100 foot hills once a week or so. Part of it is mental and part is just conditioning.