What is the best kind of milk?

TrickyDisco wrote: »

tomw86 wrote: »

TrickyDisco wrote: »

tomw86 wrote: »

... skimmed (Lord knows why anyone would drink that flavourless muck though)

Just my experiences though - don't let it get in the way of the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign

Many drink skimmed milk because they want to reduce the amount of fat in their diet and it's an easy way to lower fat consumption. I'm surprised an 'ex dairy industry individual' has such a low opinion of a product they happily provided to the general public; just your personal preference, I suppose. And what is the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign? Looks like a rather pathetic attempt to belittle those with concerns over the way cattle are treated on dairy farms.

Isn't it nice how you conveniently ignored the rest of my post about quality standards and working practices in order to focus on the one piece of personal opinion it contained?

You're quite right it was my personal preference, I've drunk all types of milk with varying fat contents and find skimmed to be distasteful to my palette, the comment certainly had no bearing on my opinion towards the buying public to whom the product was sold - in fact I had to risk my health for the same public during routine taste testing of life-expired Milk. That's right part of my job was to drink life-expired Milk to make sure that it wouldn't make a person ill if they decided to drink it past its 'use-by' date.

Further it appears you failed to notice the emoticon used by the obvious comment at the end of my post - meant in jest in the attempt to lighten the mood a little in the thread which was heading down a bit of an angry vegan / non-vegan path (non-vegan is a bit less confrontational than 'anti-vegan' don't you think?)

I'm all for facts to be public and accessible - it helps others to make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm also all for people being vegan and for making choices for ethical reasons. Each to their own and hopefully with more people being vegan and vegetarian we will see a better and more sustainable use of agricultural land that benefits all species inhabiting the earth.

A final note though on the use of 'propaganda'. The use and presentation of information and opinion, whether it be true or false in order to promote an agenda is propaganda. The Vegan Society has an agenda, the Dairy Council has an agenda, any source that promotes a way of thinking as in any way superior or better than another has an agenda and should be viewed as such.

Actually the reason I didn't quote almost all of your post was because I found it both interesting and informative; I'm always keen to read everyone's views from all sides. Lots of people only quote part of a post when replying, it doesn't mean the rest of the post is irrelevant, just that they're highlighting the part they do want to comment on.

It was only the last couple of lines that seemed odd to me. You described skimmed milk as 'flavourless muck' as if dismissing the product as useless and I couldn't understand why you'd mention that in a forum where hundreds of people who drink it regularly would see it and perhaps be offended. There are plenty of things I would not eat/drink but I wouldn't insult the people who do by using derogatory terms to describe their food. As I said before, I guessed it was your personal opinion, just wanted to draw your attention to the fact you might have offended someone and may want to be more considerate of other people's food preferences in future responses.

Shocked to hear about the part of your job where you had to risk your life for the public by drinking life-expired milk. Never knew employers could put an employee's life in jeopardy in such a way; I applaud your bravery and on behalf of the dairy milk-drinking public would like to sincerely thank you. I was so appalled I looked for more info but can't find reference any such job requirement on the huge AHDB Dairy website. Will keep looking, sure it will be there somewhere, a great site packed full of info on every aspect of British dairy farming. Maybe they test milk safety differently these days, using on-farm test kits/laboratory testing etc; you didn't say how long ago it was you were in the industry.

I did notice the 'wink' emoticon too, next to your comment about the 'big dairy is evilzz' campaign. I still don't know what that means as you still haven't explained. Combined with the comment, maybe if it had been a simple smile rather than a wink it wouldn't have been interpreted as you having a little dig at vegans. Do you really see this thread as 'heading down an angry path'? You see, I don't ... everyone's here giving their opinions and I enjoy reading them all, even the ones from those who don't think everyone is entitled to one.

Hmm, non-vegan v anti-vegan. These terms mean two different things to me. Non-vegan refers to an omnivore, pescatarian or vegetarian, for instance, obviously anyone who hasn't adopted a vegan lifestyle. Whereas an anti-vegan is anyone who has a definite aversion for whatever reason to others who HAVE adopted a vegan lifestyle. There appear to be quite a few of them on this site but of course they're all entitled to their beliefs (somewhat close-minded for not accepting lifestyle choices of others?) - whatever, I still enjoy reading all their posts.

Agree with you about facts needing to be made public and accessible. It's difficult locating all sorts of information online, isn't it? Right now I'm seeking exact figures on numbers of male calves destroyed. With all the records farms have to keep on culling, medication etc you'd think the figures would be readily available but all I've found are estimates so far. Many downloads available at AHDB Dairy, maybe one of those will shed some light on the matter. So much reading though, will keep looking till I find an exact figure from an official source (from the industry itself rather than an animal rights group).

Sorry but your final note on propaganda didn't really shed any new light on the subject for me, even in bold print. That word is bandied around threads like this all the time, usually it's anti-vegans accusing vegans of 'using propaganda' along with 'having agendas'. This is intriguing to me because despite asking in as clear terms as possible I never hear what the agendas are.

What is the Vegan Society's agenda you mention? I thought the society was simply somewhere to go for info/support on veganism for those interested; they certainly don't promote veganism as better than any other lifestyle choice, merely there for those who don't want to eat meat or dairy products for mainly ethical reasons. They have a huge website and I've been unable to find any info on this 'agenda' anywhere - perhaps because there isn't one?

In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find that the people with an agenda are actually those who have such an aversion to vegans that they are prepared to attack their comments and beliefs at every opportunity. Could these be people in the meat/dairy industry or gamekeepers, huntsmen and fishermen? I don't know. Why would anyone hate someone who simply tries not to harm animals in any way they possibly can within their means? I don't know.

My apologies, diary and the diary industry are still a heated subject for me having been involved in it for several years. I never intended to offend anyone with my description of skimmed milk - it was a bit of an inside joke and in hindsight wouldn't have meant the same to others as it meant to myself and my ex-colleagues.

I was a laboratory analyst in the industry working for one of the largest dairy processors in the UK, sadly I can't name names for obvious reasons but I doubt you would find that particular requirement on a job description. I didn't until I had accepted the position and signed my contract. Ironically as someone blessed with a near perfect sense of smell and taste (oh lucky lucky me) I ended up having to do more of the taste tests than many others - no point taste testing for certain types of spoilage if you can't discern them at minute levels after all!

We were an on-site laboratory so handled all of the testing from raw delivery to finished packed product, including but not limited to equipment, raw materials, hygiene, temperature, chemicals and calibration, I left just over two years ago because I had had enough of the food industry (previously a Quality Auditor for a commercial bakery/dessert factory) if it tells you anything I won't eat a cream cake or dessert from a supermarket but I'll still happily drink Milk from my old diary - knowing how to decipher the printed code on a label I know exactly where, when and on which bottling line a bottle was produced.

Like you said the information is always out there, if you are uk based try a freedom of information request for the figures - companies don't have to tell you the info unless you specifically ask for it, then they can't refuse, a clever bit of legislation.

And the propaganda note was really meant for those who were saying that factual info couldn't be propaganda, not specifically aimed at yourself as you do appear to know the difference

I definitely consider myself a non-vegan rather than anti-vegan and am always concerned about some farming practice, so much so that for many years I helped my parents care for ex-battery hens, giving them the best lives we could with freedom. shelter and good food to live out their days. I really miss those chickens, marvellous characters each one of them. But I'll still eat chicken and eggs without hesitation probably because I know that a chicken won't hesitate to eat a cracked egg (even one of her own) or even another chicken if we weren't quick enough to remove the body after nature had taken its course.

tomw86 wrote: »

I definitely consider myself a non-vegan rather than anti-vegan and am always concerned about some farming practice, so much so that for many years I helped my parents care for ex-battery hens, giving them the best lives we could with freedom. shelter and good food to live out their days. I really miss those chickens, marvellous characters each one of them. But I'll still eat chicken and eggs without hesitation probably because I know that a chicken won't hesitate to eat a cracked egg (even one of her own) or even another chicken if we weren't quick enough to remove the body after nature had taken its course.

Yeah, chickens are great, all have their own little personalities, they're definitely 'someone' rather than 'something'. I'd love to keep some rescue hens too but don't have the space; can sponsor them and other animals at some rescue centres though.

I don't know if they have this in New Zealand but I drink Fairlife 2% milk. It is 100% cows milk. It is not as sweet as regular milk though but much creamier. They remove all the bad things out and keep all the good. It also has double the protein than regular milk. Google it.

TrickyDisco wrote: »

Nowhere on this thread or elsewhere have I insisted on 'educating' anyone or claimed to know the 'real facts' of people's choices ... these are your words, not mine.

I invite you to reread your contributions to this thread.

As for your claim that you expected comments from me, that's odd, since I normally think I'm more of a pro vegan poster than someone who argues against veganism. (I do argue against evangelism of all sorts, however.) I also do find the claim that dairy is "unnatural" kind of weird, but that's because the idea that there are foods we are "designed" to eat and ones we are not seems silly to me (and determined only by whether we can obtain nutrients from the food, which those of us with lactose persistence can). Whether we should is, of course, an ethical choice on which (IMO) reasonable people can differ.

I submit that your posts in this thread suggest that you would not agree with my prior sentence, but that's your right.

Not trying to educate anyone here, of course, just sharing some info about dairy milk found from a reliable source.

I know where my dairy is sourced, and am not concerned about the health issues. (I suspect that others also need not be.)

Unfortunately, the first part of your final sentence seems to revert to a bit of mud-slinging again. What exactly do you mean by 'my purposes'?

I think it is clear from your posts that you are indeed trying to convert people. If I'm wrong, I'm glad.

LindzMiche wrote: »

TrickyDisco wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

What I find odd is your assumption that you can generalize about all involved in the dairy industry and know so much about where others in this thread buy their milk such that watching vegan propaganda YouTubes of other producers would be informative to us.

Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.

Is this an example of propaganda then, or are these facts? All cows on dairy farms, large or small, are kept in a state of almost continual pregnancy to produce milk, male calves are mostly slaughtered as unprofitable and cows are slaughtered as soon as their milk yield drops below required levels. People who get their dairy milk from another source (and it's highly unlikely to be from a 'pet' cow who along with her calves will be kept until they both die a natural death) will be in a tiny minority. Milk has a pus count because mastitis is commonplace throughout dairy herds.

Have you watched any of the clips on Youtube yourself and in what way would they also be 'propaganda' rather than 'whistle-blowing' on the kind of abuse which happens out of sight of the general public? Do you think the footage is somehow staged (animal-loving vegans would definitely NOT be able to do this) and, if so, how do you know that?

I'd genuinely like to know, since it may affect my own opinions on veganism.

I'm mostly vegan. I reduced my consumption of animal products for environmental and animal welfare reasons. I'm cool with Farmer Joe down the road and will get some cheese/meat from him because I see how his cows are raised and I'm good with that. They have a good life. They're doing their cow thing... eating grass and all. They aren't standing in a flood of their own feces/fed with corn/pumped full of antibiotics... you know.. non-natural cow things. I'm not okay with mass meat production for those reasons.

It kind of blows my mind.. like TrickyDisco was saying.. why is what I'm saying 'propaganda'? It's true. It happens. Go to a CAFO. Go to a slaughterhouse. See for yourself. Just because you don't want to know or don't want to believe it doesn't mean it isn't happening. That's mass production. If we all ate just a little less of it.. we wouldn't have to put the animals/environment on the backburner for profits. I know meat consumption is going down a bit.. so that's good news.. but man.. you all get so defensive... and facts become 'propaganda'

As for milk.. and those accusing vegans of caring about animals but not things like water intensive crops like almonds. I switched to cashew milk because of the almond drought thing.

I'm a strong believer in voting with my money.. and that's what I do with my diet. If you all want to bash me for that.. go ahead.. but the hostility towards vegans is pretty bananas. I know some came out with some strong descriptions.. more than I would get into.. but different things work on different people.

I'm an omnivore and I approve of this message.

kshama2001 wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Christine_72 wrote: »

so who are we to believe. .. The anti dairy peta propaganda or the pro dairy propaganda? :huh:

Here's something more measured (although there are certainly parts of it that people will take issue with): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/my-milk-manifesto_b_6786048.html

I'm certainly down with # 6:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/my-milk-manifesto_b_6786048.html

6. What about the cows?

My friend John Robbins famously renounced the Baskin-Robbins family fortune to which he was heir to become an activist for animal welfare, environmentalism, and plant-based eating. This was prompted by the abuses of cattle he observed first hand, a story he told in The Food Revolution.

The simple fact is that if a population of 7 billion Homo sapiens make dairy, or meat for that matter, a major component of their diets, methods of mass production are applied to the animals involved. This, inevitably, engenders corner-cutting, and wanton disregard for expendable concerns -- like decency.

But if you are decent, cruel and abusive treatment of our fellow creatures must matter to you. To keep dairy on the menu and take cruelty off, be sure to know something about the treatment of those cows who gave the milk.

Me too, but I disagree with the idea that the only way to be concerned about the ethical treatment of animals is veganism. I simply don't currently believe that eating animals is wrong or that raising them for food, milk, or eggs is wrong. I am able to opt out of the factory farming option and buy from local farms that I have researched, not everyone has that option, people should act according to their own conscience and IMO not shame others who may have fewer options or make assumptions about how others source their food.

Hornsby wrote: »

Jersey cow milk straight out of the udder is the best imo.

I agree: RAW (non pasteurized), non homogenized jersey milk is fantastic (which I have access to). I skim the cream off of the top and use that for making other things for my family (icecream, butter, alfredo sauce, etc.)

beautifulsparkles wrote: »

I'm not talking about brands, but where milk comes from.

I usually drink skim milk. I am wondering if it is not as good as regular, full fat milk, because it is a watered down version and our body needs calcium and stuff. I've read that you should drink full fat milk because your body needs the fat and the milk has really good stuff in it, while skim milk tends to have added sugars. Full fat milk is supposed to be more satisfying and I believe you would end up drinking a smaller amount. I am not used to the taste of full fat milk, it always tastes weird to me. It also used to give me a horrendous stomach ache when I was a child. I seem to have outgrown that, as I can have the milkshakes from McDonalds, and I obviously drink tea with milk when I go out or am at other peoples houses.

Then there are cow milk alternatives. Stuff like almond milk, soy milk or goats milk. To my knowledge I have never tasted these. I think they are more expensive. I am not sure whether they would get stored in the fridge or not, if they can be used in all the same ways cow milk can be (in tea, in baking etc) and what the expiration dates are like. Also do they have the same health benefits as regular milk, like calcium? I would need a milk alternative that meets my nutritional needs.

What is best when it comes to animals well being and the environment?

What kind of milk do you think is best? do you use more than one type of milk?

My body has no problem getting plenty of fat. I drink skim (cow's milk), and I love it...hell I have been drinking it for at least 30 years. I can down it straight out of the carton.

Where do you get the idea that skim milk has "added sugars"? It certainly does not.

Skim milk is much lower in calories than whole milk -- containing 90 calories per cup vs. 150 calories in whole milk -- but provides about the same amount of protein, vitamins and minerals as whole milk. Whole milk contains saturated fat and dietary cholesterol, while skim milk provides just negligible amounts of these nutrients.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I invite you to reread your contributions to this thread.

Thanks, RSVP's in the post

lemurcat12 wrote: »

As for your claim that you expected comments from me, that's odd

I didn't claim, it was a request after reading your comment below:

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Same with some of the false or misleading claims on various vegan sources (like about pus (white blood cells) or milk being deadly for us). It's the use of information I know is false and misleading that makes me reject these sources, even if other things are more accurate.

So why won't you share with everyone the info you 'know is false and misleading'? Also the 'other things more accurate'? Don't you want to help people here so we can all individually decide whether to reject it or not?

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I also do find the claim that dairy is "unnatural" kind of weird, but that's because the idea that there are foods we are "designed" to eat and ones we are not seems silly to me (and determined only by whether we can obtain nutrients from the food, which those of us with lactose persistence can). Whether we should is, of course, an ethical choice on which (IMO) reasonable people can differ.
I submit that your posts in this thread suggest that you would not agree with my prior sentence, but that's your right.

Oh, I do agree about everyone having choices, have always said that. Also agree on the weird claims but the first I've read mention of them in this thread is here by you. Is almost as if you're trying to affiliate those claims to me personally, but I'm sure you'd never do such a thing to anyone.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I know where my dairy is sourced, and am not concerned about the health issues. (I suspect that others also need not be.)

That's great, and I'm sure you're right about health issues. The pus count (SCC) and bacterial testing ensure milk's safe to drink.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I think it is clear from your posts that you are indeed trying to convert people. If I'm wrong, I'm glad.

Well, prepare to be glad. I was sharing some opinions and info including some from a reliable source in the dairy industry (the leading UK dairy farming support site) but it seems in your view since I'm vegan I MUST be trying to convert people.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

No, it was a claim supposedly not based on anything in this thread at all: "Luckily I'm not offended by what could possibly be an attempt to discredit my unbiased opinions. In fact I fully expected to read your comments here having seen some of your posts on earlier threads over the years."

Way back I did say that, you have a problem with it now? And what's odd about it? I'd remembered you'd commented on several dairy threads in the past so expected to see you in here, and here you are ... together with the rest of us. Group hug.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

You also called me "anti-vegan" (which is false) based merely on the fact that I called the YouTubes and some of the rhetoric propaganda and objected to your suggestions that they are relevant to how everyone on this thread sources our dairy, so that we should watch them to learn the truth.

Here's what I actually wrote:

TrickyDisco wrote: »

Ah, that 'propaganda' word again. See, that's what I find odd. You 'anti-vegans' (sorry, can't think of a better term for it and doubt one exists anyway since most vegans are a peaceful, friendly lot who wouldn't harm a fly - literally) are keen on the 'propaganda' word and I'm not entirely sure what you're on about.

Notice I used the plural term - you 'anti-vegans' - so why do you think it's aimed only at you? It's clearly not, but I see now you're manipulating comments to suit yourself, inventing reasons for me to call you that.
It looks like the YouTube clips bother you immensely judging by the number of times you've mentioned them. I've only briefly referred to them once, here:

TrickyDisco wrote: »

I think we have to make our own minds up ... but from my experience anyone who genuinely has concerns about animal welfare/food quality makes time to research the subject a bit more than having a quick peek at the PETA site. Many people don't bother, maybe they prefer to keep their heads in the sand about the sad subject of animal abuse in food production, their preference for meat/dairy is all that concerns them. There are plenty of videos on Youtube and documentaries on Netflix to prove the conditions in which animals are forced to live out their short lives and meet their end. There are also plenty of videos on eating well and healthily on a meat-free and/or dairy-free diet. As well as the ones on preparing meat and dairy dishes, of course.

(Notice you left that last line off when you quoted this post later, wouldn't want me to look unbiased in any way.)

In fact, you now appear to be attempting to attribute any ridiculous negative remark on veganism you can think of to me personally; seem to have a problem with all my comments and add peculiar embellishments of your own - words like 'rape', 'murder', 'unnatural' and 'designed foods' - none of which I either have or would use.

But then I've seen other threads go this way in the past ... someone who posted opinions and/or some info they thought relevant was then targeted with increasingly long, convoluted, accusational posts by a few intolerant people until, taken aback at the hostility directed at them and tired of defending their right to voice their own opinions, they left the thread. Maybe those who hounded them off then considered they'd won some perceived 'argument'. Predictably, this one seems to be heading the same way.

Thanks for re-posting FunkyTobias, not sure why you've done that at this stage - it was still there the last time I looked. Yes, along with my reply to his comments. Want to see those again? Probably not (and probably no-one else does either now) but just for you here it is:

TrickyDisco wrote: »

FunkyTobias wrote: »

Showing footage of the worst offenders and presenting them as the norm is propaganda.

You admit there ARE offenders then, and some are worse than others. Please post links - would like to see for myself how they are being presented as the norm, never seen this.

FunkyTobias wrote: »

Calling artificial insemination "rape" is propaganda. You want to see animal rape, watch my drakes with my ducks. Duck sex is pretty rapey.

The 'rape' comment was made by someone else in this thread, but thanks for the offer to watch your ducks having sex. Can't see what it has to do with dairy farming so will turn it down.

FunkyTobias wrote: »

Calling white blood cells "pus" is propaganda.

Dairy farm workers themselves call it this, an easier phrase to say (two syllables) than the official terms 'somatic cell count' or SCC and since it's mentioned a lot in the course of their work they shorten it to 'pus count'. Farmers are financially rewarded for low SCC levels and penalised for high ones, because cell counts reflect the quality of the milk. Milk with an SCC of more than 400,000 is deemed unfit for human consumption by the EU.

FunkyTobias wrote: »

Lying about the fate of male calves is propaganda. Most are not culled, but raised for meat.

Proof please and links to exact figures from reliable sources in the industry. I can't find this info, even your earlier link to thisisdairyfarming.com only gives estimates and you would think the industry would have exact figures since farmers keep cull records, but I have found estimates varying from 55,000 male calves shot within hours of birth in the UK per year (Compassion in World Farming) to 150,000 (Viva!). Maybe the industry deliberately hides the figures from the public.

FunkyTobias wrote: »

The belief that animals (other than pets) should be allowed to die a natural death is disingenuous. How many wild ruminants die of old age?

First, don't attach that belief to me personally, the words above are yours. Disingenuous ... admit I had to remind myself of the meaning and apparently it means 'dishonest, cunning, sly, insincere'. I'm not sure what's dishonest about believing all animals should be allowed to die a natural death, if that's what someone believes. Obviously wild animals mostly die natural deaths from predation, injury, disease or starvation (apart from the millions shot, trapped, poisoned or run over by cars etc). Farm animals usually die when farmers decide. I think you're confusing 'die a natural death' with the more widely held belief that animals deserve to 'live a natural life', or as near to it as possible. Which means they deserve to have at least their most basic needs met and to be free from unnecessary suffering and abuse. Sadly, many farm animals are denied this.

FunkyTobias wrote: »

I'm not a fan of factory farming either. The vast majority of the meat and eggs I eat are from local farmers and hunters.

Glad to hear you've made peace with your own conscience about your food sources. I'm sure no hunter of the meat you eat has ever missed a target and left a wild animal to die a slow death. Not.

FunkyTobias wrote: »

But I think that lying to attempt to win others over to your position is despicable.

It would be despicable if it were true. Your final line proves you'll go to any lengths to discredit someone with an alternative viewpoint on this subject. Very sad.

Re this comment you quoted:
I've seen a few of these videos where the operations in question were found to be in violation of the law, but they were portrayed as standard.
And I posted earlier:
Personally, I think whether it shows law-breaking or normal practices, neither thing should be happening at all so whoever goes undercover to get the clips/footage is right to make it available so everyone can make their own minds up.

This post is now getting VERY long ... beginning to look like someone else's!

lemurcat12 wrote: »

The latter is my memory too, and vegan sources are frequently linked in these discussions (not by the more trustworthy vegan posters) for claims about health and dairy being very bad for everyone and also for claims that milk we all drink is filled with pus and antibiotics and generally described in disgusting and loaded terms that discredit the argument.

More mud, anyone? Agree there's some knowledgeable vegans on here but I'm not interested in your favourites, and don't need to meet with your approval to post either. You might have posted a lot here but maybe you've been posting relentlessly in the 'things that make you angry' thread in the chit-chat forum, for instance; more posts doesn't automatically earn you more respect IMO.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I think everyone knows what I mean and am not that interested in drawing more attention to the videos in question by debunking individual examples of them. And yeah, I'm acting on memory and haven't gone back to them, because they are simply not relevant to how I source my dairy (and how many others here have said they source their dairy).

Don't think everyone knows what you mean ... I don't for a start. The fact is you can't debunk video evidence of abuse - it is what it is, whistle-blowing of some horrendous acts of cruelty going on in some slaughterhouses and farms which should not be happening at all, whatever the circumstances. You seem to dismiss them solely because they aren't relevant to you and those who get their dairy/meat from other sources, but of course you are in a tiny minority - the vast majority buy from supermarkets. So definitely not going to share with everyone what you claim you know to be false and accurate about veganism; sorry to hear that.

lemurcat12 wrote: »

So you are claiming that these videos supposedly prove what happens at all dairy farms, such that anyone non vegan needs to watch them to understand what they are participating in. Moreover, unless one is swayed by videos of specific abuses that might have nothing to do with even normal factory farming and, of course, where one specifically gets one's dairy (because as I mentioned you can do better research by looking at the specifics of the one's source), one is keeping one's head in the sand. Also, this suggests that the videos are better evidence of what the place you source from does that others, which is clearly not accurate in all cases.

And the final few paragraphs, can't be bothered to copy/paste any more now.

Those clips really bug you, don't they? Yet more ranting about them. You keep insisting I claim abuse happens on 'all farms' but, and for the final time, those are your words not mine. You're unable to post a quote of me saying this because one doesn't exist, but you'll keep mentioning it anyway in the hope it'll stick, yeah?
Videos, videos, blah, blah ... more twisting of my comments to make them look bad ... yawn.

Just one more comment on your constant insistence that I 'know so much about other people's dairy sources' and I 'generalise' ... where do the vast majority get their dairy? So they should have access to any info they need about their food, and that includes an awareness of those videos we all hate so much, me for their content and you apparently for any mention of their existence whatsoever.

I'm sure you are not an anti-vegan. And when someone's in the dairy/meat farming business themselves they wouldn't want that sort of info out there either in case some 'militant, lentil-munching vegan police' turned up at their farm with pots of red paint and a tofu sandwich or something.

Anyway, I now bow out of this thread since it's gone exactly as predicted and my apologies to the OP for cluttering up the thread; the milk question is still being answered but obviously it raises more questions than answers for some. It's been fascinating to watch the thread develop to this point, and of course someone gets possibly the only thing that really matters to them, to claim they 'saw me off' ... haha! Well done!

Still, dairy threads are like buses and there'll be another one along soon, might see you all in there.

Bye for now.

I LOVE milk. It is good for me, I have no health issues with it, and am a big milk supporter! I drink one percent milk, and by the way, creamer is what we put in our coffee in the US. It is a big richer and sometimes flavored with vanilla or hazelnut.

So much debate over such a simple food! Best of luck in whatever you decide.

I personally dont like dairy milk, im not vegan or vegetarian I just hate the taste and thickness (unless its chocolate, chocolate makes everything better ) For cereal I LOVE vanilla almond milk it's the only thing I use now.