Help me understand Threshold Pace for running?
NorthCascades
Posts: 10,968 Member
I've been running a bit lately, and whenever I do a hard run my Garmin tells me it found my lactate threshold. My LTHR is always 165 bpm, but my T-Pace improves every time.
I understand the concept of lactate threshold. I'm fine with the idea that it happens at a specific heart rate. I know this is somewhat controversial, but I can wrap my head around the concept.
What I don't understand is what it means to say my threshold pace is 8:03. Also, I don't really understand how this metric is useful? Is it for running without a heart monitor, like for pacing purposes? Is it a measure of fitness improvement? Am I on the wrong track entirely?
Finally, I have no idea how it's measured, as my fastest mile so far was 8:09. Maybe it's related; when I started running my HR used to be above 165 most of the time, now it takes something close to an all out effort.
For context I'll say I've been a cyclist most of my life.
I understand the concept of lactate threshold. I'm fine with the idea that it happens at a specific heart rate. I know this is somewhat controversial, but I can wrap my head around the concept.
What I don't understand is what it means to say my threshold pace is 8:03. Also, I don't really understand how this metric is useful? Is it for running without a heart monitor, like for pacing purposes? Is it a measure of fitness improvement? Am I on the wrong track entirely?
Finally, I have no idea how it's measured, as my fastest mile so far was 8:09. Maybe it's related; when I started running my HR used to be above 165 most of the time, now it takes something close to an all out effort.
For context I'll say I've been a cyclist most of my life.
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Replies
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Good question! Tempo pace is supposed to be "comfortably hard", or a pace you could (just) hold for an hour. It's difficult to match this with a HR since your HR will vary with fitness and hydration. If you really know your heart rate, you can target somewhere around 80% of max. You want to do this for about 20 minutes to start, and make them longer (and perhaps slower) when you are training for a marathon.
As fitness improves, your tempo pace (or lactate threshold pace) will be faster.0 -
For what it's worth, it's the same for cycling.0
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The pace that you can run hard for about an hour. If you run faster than this pace your leg muscles will start to feel like burning and you will be forced to slow down after a while.
In my opinion, easiest way to measure it is to run a 10k race.0 -
You probably only recently got the watch? It takes time, and some significant efforts, to actually narrow down what your real threshold pace is. Generally you can best measure it with a 10k run done for as best a time as you can manage.
Now as to why this is useful, the training software can then compare every run you do against your threshold pace and assign a measure of how taxing that run is to your body. Strava calls it a "suffer score", Training Peaks calls it TSS. Regardless you can use trends in that number over time to see how much you are improving, how fatigues you are, what your fitness level is, etc.1 -
AdrianChr92 wrote: »
In my opinion, easiest way to measure it is to run a 10k race.
That depends - I certainly couldn't run at 10k pace for an hour!
My coach defines it as the pace you are doing when you are almost getting out of breath but not quite - i.e. we run to feel when training at threshold pace, and the pace comes out at whatever it comes out as. And as a poster above suggests, if you're disciplined about the almost-out-of-breath-but-not-quite thing, if you speed up just a little you do start to feel your legs fill with lactic acid!3 -
Vladimirnapkin wrote: »For what it's worth, it's the same for cycling.
And this. The very same concept applies to cycling (more accurately measured by a power meter vs HR though)0 -
The distance is less important than the time. Some people can run a 10k much faster/slower than an hour.
For what it's worth, this pace is just on the edge of anaerobic, hence "threshold."0 -
AdrianChr92 wrote: »
In my opinion, easiest way to measure it is to run a 10k race.
That depends - I certainly couldn't run at 10k pace for an hour!
My coach defines it as the pace you are doing when you are almost getting out of breath but not quite - i.e. we run to feel when training at threshold pace, and the pace comes out at whatever it comes out as. And as a poster above suggests, if you're disciplined about the almost-out-of-breath-but-not-quite thing, if you speed up just a little you do start to feel your legs fill with lactic acid!
From observations most people do a 10k in an hour so it's just an average. Anyway it's pretty close to your 10k speed.
And as you say the breath thing, I find that I breath in 2-2 patterns when I'm running at that pace. It's hard but I can keep at it comfortably
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Now as to why this is useful, the training software can then compare every run you do against your threshold pace and assign a measure of how taxing that run is to your body. Strava calls it a "suffer score", Training Peaks calls it TSS. Regardless you can use trends in that number over time to see how much you are improving, how fatigues you are, what your fitness level is, etc.
I have a power meter (Vector 2) on my bike, TSS is hugely important to me. I understand how it's calculated from the NP of a ride as a fraction of my FTP. What you just described sounds like exactly the same thing. I've been trying to estimate TSS from perceived exertion and recently read about using HR zones to estimate TSS. Can I assume what you're talking about is going to be much more accurate? And can I add bike TSS together with running TSS?
(For the record I use TSS in the Performance Management Chart in Golden Cheetah, to figure out when to do how much training.)0 -
You probably only recently got the watch? It takes time, and some significant efforts, to actually narrow down what your real threshold pace is. Generally you can best measure it with a 10k run done for as best a time as you can manage.
I've had the watch for a little more than a year, but it only recently got the threshold detection feature. Also I've been doing more running lately. Based on the cycling I've done I would have guessed my LTHR would be very close to 165 bpm and every time the watch detects it, it's always exactly 165, it's never moved. The pace is different (better) each time though.My coach defines it as the pace you are doing when you are almost getting out of breath but not quite - i.e. we run to feel when training at threshold pace, and the pace comes out at whatever it comes out as. And as a poster above suggests, if you're disciplined about the almost-out-of-breath-but-not-quite thing, if you speed up just a little you do start to feel your legs fill with lactic acid!
Do you have any thoughts on what it would mean for my threshold pace to be slightly faster than I can (currently) run?
I'm guessing that when I started running, I was bad at it, and pretty much always ran over threshold, probably that's part of why I couldn't do it very long?
The longest I've run so far (without stopping or walking) was 3.72 miles, which took me 35:19 (so 9:29 average pace).0 -
If your watch is calculating your threshold pace to be faster than you can actually run, it's just wrong, I think. Unless you are supremely fit from other sports and your legs haven't caught up yet. If you're having to stop because you're out of breath, then your threshold is not (yet) as fast as your watch is predicting. But it doesn't really matter unless you're trying to do specific threshold-paced sessions. If you just do more easy running you'll get better at it.0
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AdrianChr92 wrote: »AdrianChr92 wrote: »
In my opinion, easiest way to measure it is to run a 10k race.
That depends - I certainly couldn't run at 10k pace for an hour!
My coach defines it as the pace you are doing when you are almost getting out of breath but not quite - i.e. we run to feel when training at threshold pace, and the pace comes out at whatever it comes out as. And as a poster above suggests, if you're disciplined about the almost-out-of-breath-but-not-quite thing, if you speed up just a little you do start to feel your legs fill with lactic acid!
From observations most people do a 10k in an hour so it's just an average. Anyway it's pretty close to your 10k speed.
I've seen it described as both 10Km pace and hour pace, although suspect the latter is more easily replicable.
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I've seen it described as hour pace and 15k to half marathon pace, but I guess I was reading different books!0
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NorthCascades wrote: »Now as to why this is useful, the training software can then compare every run you do against your threshold pace and assign a measure of how taxing that run is to your body. Strava calls it a "suffer score", Training Peaks calls it TSS. Regardless you can use trends in that number over time to see how much you are improving, how fatigues you are, what your fitness level is, etc.
I have a power meter (Vector 2) on my bike, TSS is hugely important to me. I understand how it's calculated from the NP of a ride as a fraction of my FTP. What you just described sounds like exactly the same thing. I've been trying to estimate TSS from perceived exertion and recently read about using HR zones to estimate TSS. Can I assume what you're talking about is going to be much more accurate? And can I add bike TSS together with running TSS?
(For the record I use TSS in the Performance Management Chart in Golden Cheetah, to figure out when to do how much training.)
Now you are speaking my language! Training Peaks will record "rTSS" calculated off your threshold run pace. Assuming that t-pace is accurately set, then you will get similar TSS metrics to your bike.
If your bike and run thresholds are correctly set, yes they are additive and cumulative. I also have Training Peaks calculate a "sTSS" for my swims. Similarly it takes a swim threshold pace and applies a similar calculation as it does for the run. I use the Performance Management Chart to track my progress months to month, week to week, etc.1 -
I've seen it described as hour pace and 15k to half marathon pace, but I guess I was reading different books!
I've seen this as well. The recommendation, I believe, is that you go out and run a race that will take you "about an hour". If that's 10k, great. If that's 15k, that's also great. An elite few will need to go run a half marathon to get that hour. The point of it being a "race" is that you want it to be a maximum effort for that time vs "just a training run"0 -
If your watch is calculating your threshold pace to be faster than you can actually run, it's just wrong, I think. Unless you are supremely fit from other sports and your legs haven't caught up yet. If you're having to stop because you're out of breath, then your threshold is not (yet) as fast as your watch is predicting. But it doesn't really matter unless you're trying to do specific threshold-paced sessions. If you just do more easy running you'll get better at it.
I don't know about supremely, but I've been cycling for years, been to the top of the roads on Mount Rainier, Baker, etc. How long would it take for my legs to catch up?
I haven't been following a training plan, I just went for a run one day, a very short one. I ran more, mostly short ones, but occasionally I'd add a little distance, like 10 % at a time, over my previous longest run. I made sure to always have plenty of recovery time between runs. A couple weeks ago I ran 5K on Monday and again on Thursday.0 -
I don't know how long it'd take to get running fit from a cycling fitness base because I'm a runner first and a cyclist only for commuting (and don't try very hard on the bike!). I do know that running is much harder on your bones, tendons, ligaments etc. though because of the impact, and that it requires more effort, at least at first. It sounds like you are doing the right thing by building up gradually.0
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Now you are speaking my language! Training Peaks will record "rTSS" calculated off your threshold run pace. Assuming that t-pace is accurately set, then you will get similar TSS metrics to your bike.
If your bike and run thresholds are correctly set, yes they are additive and cumulative. I also have Training Peaks calculate a "sTSS" for my swims. Similarly it takes a swim threshold pace and applies a similar calculation as it does for the run. I use the Performance Management Chart to track my progress months to month, week to week, etc.
Thanks very much, this has been extremely helpful for me.
I mean it's bothered me wondering what T-Pace means and not being able to find the answer with Google's help, but closing this gap in my PMC because I don't have a TSS number I trust ... it's huge!
I'll have to check Golden Cheetah tonight to see if it can do this stuff. I've been thinking about getting a Training Peaks subscription because I'm getting tired of having to feed my files into it after every ride, I know I can just sync directly to Training Peaks and have it just always be up to date. If Golden Cheetah can't handle running TSS, I have another and more compelling reason to go for it.0 -
I don't know how long it'd take to get running fit from a cycling fitness base because I'm a runner first and a cyclist only for commuting (and don't try very hard on the bike!). I do know that running is much harder on your bones, tendons, ligaments etc. though because of the impact, and that it requires more effort, at least at first. It sounds like you are doing the right thing by building up gradually.
Yeah. Cycling is pretty low impact. And I'm a road cyclist, so we don't have jumps or drops or anything, just (hopefully) smooth pavement.
Turns out road cyclists tend to have weak, brittle bones. We sweat a lot of minerals out, and we don't have enough impact to encourage them to grow stronger. When I found out about all this, people were saying "running and lifting weights are the best ways to address this." And it's easier for me to run than to lift weights. Also, some days I don't have enough time to get a good workout on the bike, but I can take 20 or 30 minutes to run.0 -
This article explains the difference between 'threshold' and 'tempo' training runs as the two terms are often used interchangeably. Your 'T-pace' on the Garmin apparently corresponds to threshold, so it should be the pace at which you are running when you reach your lactate threshold.
http://www.active.com/running/articles/what-are-threshold-and-tempo-runs
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I've seen it described as hour pace and 15k to half marathon pace, but I guess I was reading different books!
I've seen this as well. The recommendation, I believe, is that you go out and run a race that will take you "about an hour". If that's 10k, great. If that's 15k, that's also great. An elite few will need to go run a half marathon to get that hour. The point of it being a "race" is that you want it to be a maximum effort for that time vs "just a training run"
This is the winning response.0 -
If your watch is calculating your threshold pace to be faster than you can actually run, it's just wrong, I think. Unless you are supremely fit from other sports and your legs haven't caught up yet. If you're having to stop because you're out of breath, then your threshold is not (yet) as fast as your watch is predicting. But it doesn't really matter unless you're trying to do specific threshold-paced sessions. If you just do more easy running you'll get better at it.
So I went for a very short run tonight. I was a little fatigued but there's a storm coming in and it's supposed to rain for days, so I took the flat scenic route to get cat food. The watch found my threshold again, this time at 8:11, which is about a second and a half slower than I've run. Still figuring everything out but now it's not quite as weird.
Anyway thanks for your input. 0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »If your watch is calculating your threshold pace to be faster than you can actually run, it's just wrong, I think. Unless you are supremely fit from other sports and your legs haven't caught up yet. If you're having to stop because you're out of breath, then your threshold is not (yet) as fast as your watch is predicting. But it doesn't really matter unless you're trying to do specific threshold-paced sessions. If you just do more easy running you'll get better at it.
So I went for a very short run tonight. I was a little fatigued but there's a storm coming in and it's supposed to rain for days, so I took the flat scenic route to get cat food. The watch found my threshold again, this time at 8:11, which is about a second and a half slower than I've run. Still figuring everything out but now it's not quite as weird.
Anyway thanks for your input.
I would not trust the auto detect feature as much as the guided test. With the test you can control the environment. Running the test on a flat track on a nice day when you are rested seems to me to be a better way to get a more accurate number.0 -
Apologies in advance if I'm teaching you to suck eggs are you monitoring your pulse as you mentioned you felt fatigued
if your resting pulse rate is high it means you need to ease off or
have a rest day
When I used to compete I only had use of a pulse meter but would
also listen to my body ie if I was feeling tired I would do some swimming
instead
Apologies if going off topic,do you do hill work and fast tempo sessions ie
10x 400m resting in between laps as this would build up your lactate threshold
and the hill reps would help with strength and stamina0
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