Want your opinion re: this...

Disclaimer: I didn't write this but I did read it and wanted to see if there's any truth to it:
"Blood sugar causes insulin. Insulin is a fat storing hormone. If you are eating too much refined carbohydrates insulin prevents fat from being released into the blood stream. If you reduce carbohydrates fat can flow out of the cells to be burnt as energy. Excess fat is not driven to storage but is excreted. If you go into calorie defecit the result is that you will be hungry, miserable, tired and your metabolism will slow down. This is no way to live. On a low carb diet you may be eating more calories as good fats but you will not be hungry and fat will flow out of fat cells and be burnt and excreted. You will lose weight until you reach your target, then gradually increase good carbohydrates until you stabilise."
Can anyone advise? At present, I'm sticking with the 'defecit is all' approach - i.e. not giving too much concern to how I get my calories, provided I don't get too many of them and provided everything is in a reasonable balance. But..... this got me to thinking, maybe this guy has a point?

Replies

  • maggieeric1
    maggieeric1 Posts: 55 Member
    A lot of folks who have been yo yo ing along are looking for something that works. For them.

    The trick is to find what works for you and stick to it for long enough to see results.

    If you are struggling with cravings making it very much like torture to stick to a diet plan then you might be looking for a plan that manipulates hormones around hunger and satiation. Insulin is a hormone so being mindful about it can help end cravings for sweets.

    If you aren't struggling then continue onward. Everyone is different. Do what gets results and makes you feel right.
  • maggieeric1
    maggieeric1 Posts: 55 Member
    I personally am a sugar addict and post menopausal. I have put on weight.

    Understanding what causes the sugar cravings has really helped me.

    You don't have to try every new fad/trend if you found something that works for you and your lifestyle... stick to it.
  • zyxst
    zyxst Posts: 9,149 Member
    If low carb works for you (ie: not hungry, staying in calories, energy to do things), then eat low carb. It works for some but not others. You have to have a calorie deficit to lose weight. How you get that is up to you. What you quoted is woo.
  • maggieeric1
    maggieeric1 Posts: 55 Member
    There is only so much you can cut. To get a deficit, if you've been yo yo dieting your whole life, your bmr set point might be below what the calculations give out.

    Your body is filled with many hormones. Things like sleep, stress, stress from a workout, your diet macros, environmental toxins, etc. all affect the hormone soup.

    Sometimes you just might want to know how to tweak it. Not twerk it.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    Read this research review, it relies upon actual science rather than junk science, hysteria and fearmongering:

    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
    Disclaimer: I didn't write this but I did read it and wanted to see if there's any truth to it:
    "Blood sugar causes insulin. Insulin is a fat storing hormone. If you are eating too much refined carbohydrates insulin prevents fat from being released into the blood stream. If you reduce carbohydrates fat can flow out of the cells to be burnt as energy. Excess fat is not driven to storage but is excreted. If you go into calorie defecit the result is that you will be hungry, miserable, tired and your metabolism will slow down. This is no way to live. On a low carb diet you may be eating more calories as good fats but you will not be hungry and fat will flow out of fat cells and be burnt and excreted. You will lose weight until you reach your target, then gradually increase good carbohydrates until you stabilise."
    Can anyone advise? At present, I'm sticking with the 'defecit is all' approach - i.e. not giving too much concern to how I get my calories, provided I don't get too many of them and provided everything is in a reasonable balance. But..... this got me to thinking, maybe this guy has a point?

    Do you have diabetes, metabolic syndrome, something like that? If you're metabolically in range, I'd think the most important thing is making sure you're getting an appropriate amount of protein (25-40% or so, depending on a bunch of things) and at least a minimum amount of fat - 15% ish (again, depending, more is fine). After that, whether you eat carbs or fat... doesn't really matter as much as enjoying the foods you eat and maintaining a deficit on average over the long term without unreasonable cravings.

    Yes, if you are experiencing blood sugar issues, learning how sugar and insulin work might help control health issues and/or cravings. Or, if you're a body sculpting weight lifter or long distance runner, you might find better results tweaking your carbs.

    Then again... you might find you're less hungry and have less bloating if you eat low carb... hard to say how an individual may react. Always consider talking to a doctor before making dietart changes.
  • nequalone
    nequalone Posts: 7 Member
    edited May 2016
    http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/the-great-medical-disconnect Here is an alternative source of information that does skew towards the idea that higher insulin can cause more weight gain.

    Personally I think that overeating ANY amount of food (the simple act of overeating) causes weight gain. However, overeating is not just a willpower thing. Just like it is incredibly difficult to resist the acts of breathing and urination because our bodies require that action, when hormones are out of whack it can be difficult to resist the act of eating.

    As someone who has taken steroids for asthma on multiple occasions, I can tell you that particular hormone makes me hungry as hell--and yes that makes me eat more and that makes me gain weight.

    I eat a low carb diet for my weight loss because that works for MY BODY. But I absolutely believe that every BODY is different and what works for mine may not work for yours, but that does not make what I do or you do "right".

    There is no "right" when it comes to weight loss and health, only "right for me."
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    I'd advise you stick with what's working for you.

    But if you want to read a more detailed explanation of the theory (or one of the theories - there's small differences depending on the source) Dr. Fung just posted a blog post where he explains why (he believes) CICO doesn't work long term. In a nutshell:

    "Why do we pretend like the body cares about calories... The body doesn’t give two sh**s about calories, so why should we? However, the body DOES care a lot about the hormonal response to the foods we just ate." --Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant

  • cerise_noir
    cerise_noir Posts: 5,468 Member
    c40q7xfae0rt.jpg
    nequalone wrote: »
    There is no "right" when it comes to weight loss and health, only "right for me."
    CICO is the universal right way (Provide your body less calories than you need to maintain current weight), WOE is the "right for me", and that can be keto, low carb, high carb, vegetarian, etc.... WOE is the way to create a deficit = CICO.

    It is always about CICO, you know, the scientifically proven method?
    CI < CO = weight loss.
    CI > CO = weight gain.
    CI = CO = maintain.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    I personally am a sugar addict and post menopausal. I have put on weight.

    Understanding what causes the sugar cravings has really helped me.

    You don't have to try every new fad/trend if you found something that works for you and your lifestyle... stick to it.
    There is only so much you can cut. To get a deficit, if you've been yo yo dieting your whole life, your bmr set point might be below what the calculations give out.

    Your body is filled with many hormones. Things like sleep, stress, stress from a workout, your diet macros, environmental toxins, etc. all affect the hormone soup.

    Sometimes you just might want to know how to tweak it. Not twerk it.

    what?????

    your an addict? a sugar addict? do you eat fruit? milk?

    and double what????
  • cerise_noir
    cerise_noir Posts: 5,468 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    I personally am a sugar addict and post menopausal. I have put on weight.

    Understanding what causes the sugar cravings has really helped me.

    You don't have to try every new fad/trend if you found something that works for you and your lifestyle... stick to it.
    There is only so much you can cut. To get a deficit, if you've been yo yo dieting your whole life, your bmr set point might be below what the calculations give out.

    Your body is filled with many hormones. Things like sleep, stress, stress from a workout, your diet macros, environmental toxins, etc. all affect the hormone soup.

    Sometimes you just might want to know how to tweak it. Not twerk it.

    what?????

    your an addict? a sugar addict? do you eat fruit? milk?

    and double what????

    I second the 'what what'
    ilzjr0omhij6.jpg
  • abatonfan
    abatonfan Posts: 1,120 Member
    Disclaimer: I didn't write this but I did read it and wanted to see if there's any truth to it:
    "Blood sugar causes insulin. No. Insulin is continuously released from the body (basal insulin) to counteract the liver releasing glucose on a continuous basis in order to fuel the body. This might be the simplest way to explain it: when we eat, there's receptors in our digestive tract that "tells" out pancreas to release insulin. The insulin released allows for our body -especially organs like the liver- to take up the glucose that was broken down from the food (all carbohydrates will be broken down into glucose) to save for when the body needs the glucose (the liver processes it into glycogen, which is simply 600+ molecules of glucose linked together). Our body's preferred source of energy is glucose (some types of cells, especially in the nervous system, prefer to run purely on glucose), so we need that glycogen supply in the liver to help "cover" the glucose our body needs whenever we're not eating (such as while we're sleeping). When our blood sugar drops below a certain threshold, the pancreas is stimulated to release glucagon, which tells the liver to break down some of the glycogen into glucose and release it into the blood.
    Insulin is a fat storing hormone. If you are eating too much refined carbohydrates insulin prevents fat from being released into the blood stream. If you reduce carbohydrates fat can flow out of the cells to be burnt as energy. Excess fat is not driven to storage but is excreted. Insulin is a fat-storing hormone, when there's excess glucose. Insulin is like a traffic guard -it'll first tell the glucose to go satisfy the current needs for all the cells in the body (such as our muscles, which also store a lot of glycogen), then it'll tell whatever glucose is leftover to go to the liver to be stored as glycogen, and then it tells whatever glucose is left after all that to go to the fat cells to be stored within the fat as future energy. What this excerpt might be trying to describe is ketosis. Ketosis often happens when the body does not have the ability to use glucose as fuel. For instance, I am a type 1 diabetic, which means that an autoimmune attack caused my pancreas to stop producing insulin. Insulin is like the key that allows glucose to enter the cells, so without insulin, the cells within my body cannot use glucose as fuel. Instead, they have to resort to using fat (and protein -I lost a ton of muscle from the undiagnosed diabetes) as fuel in a process called ketosis (for a type 1 diabetic, ketosis due to an insulin absence can be dangerous, because ketosis produces acidic ketone byproducts that could decrease the pH of our blood and, when combined with dehydration associated from high blood sugars due to the insulin absence, can send us into diabetic ketoacidosis, which can be fatal if untreated). People on keto diets can induce ketosis by severely limiting their carbohydrate intake (typically <20g), though ultimately all that matters is a calorie deficit. The body still uses fat and protein as fuel (I can't really explain how exactly or what cellular mechanisms occur for it).
    If you go into calorie defecit the result is that you will be hungry, miserable, tired and your metabolism will slow down. This is no way to live. On a low carb diet you may be eating more calories as good fats but you will not be hungry and fat will flow out of fat cells and be burnt and excreted. You will lose weight until you reach your target, then gradually increase good carbohydrates until you stabilise.All that matters is a calorie deficit. With insulin, it's continuously released by the body (unless you're a type 1 diabetic and don't produce any of your own insulin :P). The body uses all macronutrients -all calories- as fuel.
    "
    Can anyone advise? At present, I'm sticking with the 'defecit is all' approach - i.e. not giving too much concern to how I get my calories, provided I don't get too many of them and provided everything is in a reasonable balance. But..... this got me to thinking, maybe this guy has a point?
    My replies are bold. All that matters is CI<CO. Diets like keto might be helpful if you are insulin resistant or have a medical condition that is exacerbated by carbs (some forms of epilepsy are controlled through a keto diet, women with PCOS often find that reducing their carbs helps to manage the insulin resistance with it, and type 2 diabetics might find that a carb reduction leads to better BG control), but if you can't sustain a diet like keto then don't feel pressured into doing it. All that matters is that you have a calorie deficit.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Insulin is a fat storing hormone.

    More accurately, insulin helps shuttle things around in the body. It helps get protein to muscles, too. It won't store anything as fat unless your glycogen stores are full, which typically won't be the case when you are eating at a deficit. Moreover, you will never gain net fat if you are burning more than you are eating (i.e., at a deficit). While some fat may be added in a moment, more will ultimately be burn. So this is highly misleading.
    If you are eating too much refined carbohydrates insulin prevents fat from being released into the blood stream.

    No--it might be the case at the moment, but not over the course of the day, unless by "too much carbohydrate" what is meant are too many calories overall. You will also put on net fat if you overeat with a diet that is high in fat (as recommended by the low carb advocates).

    This is similar to the arguments that you should exercise only in the "fat burning zone," because otherwise you won't be burning fat. It doesn't matter -- net burn is what matters. You burn lots of fat when sleeping and when sedentary. You can't manipulate it so you burn lots more just because of what you eat or stop your body from taking the fuel it needs (which will mean burning fat overall if you are at a deficit, because it needs the fuel -- it can't run without it).
    If you reduce carbohydrates fat can flow out of the cells to be burnt as energy.

    Only if at a deficit, and it will happen also with a high carb diet when at a deficit. So irrelevant and misleading.
    Excess fat is not driven to storage but is excreted.

    Yes, it certainly could be driven to storage. If someone overeats on a high fat diet, they gain fat. The idea that they will not is bizarre. (I know it is not your idea and that you were not saying this.)
    If you go into calorie defecit the result is that you will be hungry, miserable, tired and your metabolism will slow down.

    Not true. There are many, many examples of people on MFP who have lost weight through a calorie deficit without being hungry or miserable or had metabolism issues. Typically cutting too aggressively (fad or starvation diets) or eating poorly (which varies by individual somewhat, as different people find different foods filling). Some people find high fat diets more filling than high carb (most commonly people find protein the most filling macro, and there are also typically differences more by specific food item than carb vs. fat, especially since so many foods are a mix). It is also true that ketosis can kill appetite in many (which to me seems like a negative). If one is struggling with appetite lowering carbs is something to consider (although hardly the only thing), but I actually find it offensive that so many low carbers will insist that other people are hungry and miserable.

    Also -- really the bigger point -- anyone who loses weight is on a calorie deficit, including those who lose by going low carb (or high carb, low fat vegan). It's just that changing the diet may do this without someone having to count. But lots of people have lost without counting without going low carb or vegan or paleo or raw, etc. also.
    This is no way to live. On a low carb diet you may be eating more calories as good fats but you will not be hungry and fat will flow out of fat cells and be burnt and excreted. You will lose weight until you reach your target, then gradually increase good carbohydrates until you stabilise.

    No, you won't be eating more calories and losing (and again with the offensive claims about other ways of losing weight). (And again I know it's not from you.)

    I am in favor of low carb diets as an approach that works well for some people. I just hate this kind of dishonest propaganda and preaching based on misleading claims and lies.
  • 2011rocket3touring
    2011rocket3touring Posts: 1,346 Member
    I was a firm believer, but have my doubts.
    I do cardio 4 days a week for 60 at a time at 4am on an empty stomach, then I refrain from eating for about 2 to 3 hours and yet my weight loss is within MFP CICO calculations with about a .1lbs variation.
  • cerise_noir
    cerise_noir Posts: 5,468 Member
    tomteboda wrote: »
    As as a chemist whose graduate research focused on the glycolic pathway, and experience in protein signaling and metabolism both experimental and theoretical, I couldn't even get past the first two sentences without crying out in horror.

    The quote in the first post is pure and utter bull manure and designed to scare people while sounding authoratative.

    Eat what you enjoy.. Play around with trying a little more meat or fiber, or eating more snacks or smaller meals, but only make changes insofar as you continue to enjoy your food and lifestyle. All you need to lose weight is a caloric deficit. All you need to avoid may with your diet is to eat enough to be full and often enough to avoid hypoglycemia if you're prone to that, and to eat tasty enough food that you don't feel constantly deprived.
    <3
    QFT.
  • abatonfan
    abatonfan Posts: 1,120 Member
    tomteboda wrote: »
    As as a chemist whose graduate research focused on the glycolic pathway, and experience in protein signaling and metabolism both experimental and theoretical, I couldn't even get past the first two sentences without crying out in horror.

    The quote in the first post is pure and utter bull manure and designed to scare people while sounding authoratative.

    Eat what you enjoy.. Play around with trying a little more meat or fiber, or eating more snacks or smaller meals, but only make changes insofar as you continue to enjoy your food and lifestyle. All you need to lose weight is a caloric deficit. All you need to avoid may with your diet is to eat enough to be full and often enough to avoid hypoglycemia if you're prone to that, and to eat tasty enough food that you don't feel constantly deprived.

    <3 Teach me the ways of biochemistry! Surprisingly, having that tiny bit of biochemistry background for nursing (especially seeing how exactly protein can affect BG levels) has completely changed how I approach taking insulin for my meals.
  • sky_northern
    sky_northern Posts: 119 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Insulin is a fat storing hormone.

    More accurately, insulin helps shuttle things around in the body. It helps get protein to muscles, too. It won't store anything as fat unless your glycogen stores are full, which typically won't be the case when you are eating at a deficit. Moreover, you will never gain net fat if you are burning more than you are eating (i.e., at a deficit). While some fat may be added in a moment, more will ultimately be burn. So this is highly misleading.
    If you are eating too much refined carbohydrates insulin prevents fat from being released into the blood stream.

    No--it might be the case at the moment, but not over the course of the day, unless by "too much carbohydrate" what is meant are too many calories overall. You will also put on net fat if you overeat with a diet that is high in fat (as recommended by the low carb advocates).

    This is similar to the arguments that you should exercise only in the "fat burning zone," because otherwise you won't be burning fat. It doesn't matter -- net burn is what matters. You burn lots of fat when sleeping and when sedentary. You can't manipulate it so you burn lots more just because of what you eat or stop your body from taking the fuel it needs (which will mean burning fat overall if you are at a deficit, because it needs the fuel -- it can't run without it).
    exactly, why do people believe that you insulin is going to be high all the time when your eating carbs in a calorie reduced diet?

    @alavasterVerve provided this gem [/i] --Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant

    which says:
    You reduce your intake to 1200 calories per day. Since insulin remains high, you cannot get any energy from fat stores. Why? Because the dietary strategy you are using (Caloric Reduction as Primary) only concerns itself with reducing calories, not insulin. Remember that the high insulin is telling the body to store energy as fat, or at a minimum, not burn fat (inhibits lipolysis).

    Seriously? This person on a 1200 calorie diets has high insulin all the time?? They never sleep?? They somehow are eating enough bad, evil carbs 24hrs a day to keep their insulin high while staying at 1200 calories???
  • emmadonaldson95
    emmadonaldson95 Posts: 179 Member
    Hmmm I'm only half way through my physiology revision for my medical exams but I've never heard anything about fat 'flowing' anywhere hahahaha.
    Just calorie count stick to or under your goal and do exercise. Try to get lots of veggies and meet your macros especially protein and dont worry about faddy nonsense and cutting food groups. Trying to hugely cut a food group just isnt sustainable long tern
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    @alavasterVerve provided this gem [/i] --Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant

    which says:
    You reduce your intake to 1200 calories per day. Since insulin remains high, you cannot get any energy from fat stores. Why? Because the dietary strategy you are using (Caloric Reduction as Primary) only concerns itself with reducing calories, not insulin. Remember that the high insulin is telling the body to store energy as fat, or at a minimum, not burn fat (inhibits lipolysis).

    Seriously? This person on a 1200 calorie diets has high insulin all the time?? They never sleep?? They somehow are eating enough bad, evil carbs 24hrs a day to keep their insulin high while staying at 1200 calories???

    Obvious malarkey written by a crackpot with not even a basic knowledge of physiology or endocrinology - with the intent to be controversial, since 'controversial' sells books and gets media coverage. These silly snake oil salesmen will do anything for money, even outright lie to people (as evidenced in that quote).
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Insulin is a fat storing hormone.

    More accurately, insulin helps shuttle things around in the body. It helps get protein to muscles, too. It won't store anything as fat unless your glycogen stores are full, which typically won't be the case when you are eating at a deficit. Moreover, you will never gain net fat if you are burning more than you are eating (i.e., at a deficit). While some fat may be added in a moment, more will ultimately be burn. So this is highly misleading.
    If you are eating too much refined carbohydrates insulin prevents fat from being released into the blood stream.

    No--it might be the case at the moment, but not over the course of the day, unless by "too much carbohydrate" what is meant are too many calories overall. You will also put on net fat if you overeat with a diet that is high in fat (as recommended by the low carb advocates).

    This is similar to the arguments that you should exercise only in the "fat burning zone," because otherwise you won't be burning fat. It doesn't matter -- net burn is what matters. You burn lots of fat when sleeping and when sedentary. You can't manipulate it so you burn lots more just because of what you eat or stop your body from taking the fuel it needs (which will mean burning fat overall if you are at a deficit, because it needs the fuel -- it can't run without it).
    exactly, why do people believe that you insulin is going to be high all the time when your eating carbs in a calorie reduced diet?

    @alavasterVerve provided this gem [/i] --Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant

    which says:
    You reduce your intake to 1200 calories per day. Since insulin remains high, you cannot get any energy from fat stores. Why? Because the dietary strategy you are using (Caloric Reduction as Primary) only concerns itself with reducing calories, not insulin. Remember that the high insulin is telling the body to store energy as fat, or at a minimum, not burn fat (inhibits lipolysis).

    Seriously? This person on a 1200 calorie diets has high insulin all the time?? They never sleep?? They somehow are eating enough bad, evil carbs 24hrs a day to keep their insulin high while staying at 1200 calories???

    Yes, there are clearly parts that don't make any sense. Like the entire calorie/math section.

    "So, as you reduce your caloric intake to 1200 calories in, the body is force to reduce it’s metabolism to only 1200 calories."

    Obviously people lose huge amounts of weight calorie counting on high carb diets - we know this doesn't happen. Perhaps it's hyperbole? I can't tell. Someone asked a similar question in the comments. If he answers I'll try and remember to post his answer here.
  • AlabasterVerve
    AlabasterVerve Posts: 3,171 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    @alavasterVerve provided this gem [/i] --Why The First Law of Thermodynamics is Utterly Irrelevant

    which says:
    You reduce your intake to 1200 calories per day. Since insulin remains high, you cannot get any energy from fat stores. Why? Because the dietary strategy you are using (Caloric Reduction as Primary) only concerns itself with reducing calories, not insulin. Remember that the high insulin is telling the body to store energy as fat, or at a minimum, not burn fat (inhibits lipolysis).

    Seriously? This person on a 1200 calorie diets has high insulin all the time?? They never sleep?? They somehow are eating enough bad, evil carbs 24hrs a day to keep their insulin high while staying at 1200 calories???

    Obvious malarkey written by a crackpot with not even a basic knowledge of physiology or endocrinology - with the intent to be controversial, since 'controversial' sells books and gets media coverage. These silly snake oil salesmen will do anything for money, even outright lie to people (as evidenced in that quote).

    What his intentions are I don't know but from the sounds of it he has a very successful practice. And all of the information - which amounts to fasting to reverse diabetes - is available for free on his blog and through a series of youtube videos and has been for years. The books are new.

    The about page is really pretty interesting. It reads like he had a hypothesis, tested it on patients, got the results he expected and has been treating his theory as gospel ever since.
  • jtcedinburgh
    jtcedinburgh Posts: 117 Member
    Cheers folks, I did think the quote I posted was hokum, but I wanted to get your take on it. And, let me stress once again, it's not something I wrote, nor believe, but I was prepared to at least verify (or debunk, as it happens) the claims...