Why are running training plans so complicated.
Cisseismint
Posts: 53 Member
Hello all, I need some help and advice with my running training.
So I am 40 years old and I haven't really run much ever, although I play football (soccer) twice a week so I am reasonably fit.
Anyway 3 months ago I decided I wanted to be a 5k runner and regularly race over that distance. So I went out for a run to see how much I could do. I ran for 3km at 6 mins per km and had to stop. I wasn't fit enough to run a full 5k or run at a very fast pace. So I tackled the distance first. I just ran 3 times a week adding 250m each time. Within a couple of weeks I could run 5k in half an hour.
Then I wanted to get faster, so I kept running 5k 3 times a week, but focussed on knocking a few secs of my pace each time. Now I can run a 5k in 25 mins at 5 min per km. can I just keep this up indefinitely or do I need a proper training plan? My thinking is that if I just keep doing what I am doing then in a few more months I can get down near to 20 mins and enter a race.
I have looked at training plans online and they all seem so complicated. 1 long easy run at x% of vo2 something or other, interval pyramids, hill sessions, wtf? Why can't I just keep running 5k and try and get a few seconds faster every time? Surely the best way to get better at running 5k is to keep running 5k a little faster every time?
It's like when I wanted to get stronger, I started lifting an empty bar and added 5lbs each time till I could bench my body weight and squat 1.5 times body weight. Why isn't it the same for running? Is it just BS to sell magazines or do I need to get with it?
So I am 40 years old and I haven't really run much ever, although I play football (soccer) twice a week so I am reasonably fit.
Anyway 3 months ago I decided I wanted to be a 5k runner and regularly race over that distance. So I went out for a run to see how much I could do. I ran for 3km at 6 mins per km and had to stop. I wasn't fit enough to run a full 5k or run at a very fast pace. So I tackled the distance first. I just ran 3 times a week adding 250m each time. Within a couple of weeks I could run 5k in half an hour.
Then I wanted to get faster, so I kept running 5k 3 times a week, but focussed on knocking a few secs of my pace each time. Now I can run a 5k in 25 mins at 5 min per km. can I just keep this up indefinitely or do I need a proper training plan? My thinking is that if I just keep doing what I am doing then in a few more months I can get down near to 20 mins and enter a race.
I have looked at training plans online and they all seem so complicated. 1 long easy run at x% of vo2 something or other, interval pyramids, hill sessions, wtf? Why can't I just keep running 5k and try and get a few seconds faster every time? Surely the best way to get better at running 5k is to keep running 5k a little faster every time?
It's like when I wanted to get stronger, I started lifting an empty bar and added 5lbs each time till I could bench my body weight and squat 1.5 times body weight. Why isn't it the same for running? Is it just BS to sell magazines or do I need to get with it?
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You probably don't need to worry about heart rates, percentage of max, interval training etc. But the way to get better at running 5k is NOT just to keep running 5k a little faster every time. You'll probably hit a plateau long before you get to 20 mins. Your best bet for the moment is to start running further than 5k. If I were targeting 5k races I'd probably want to be doing about 30 35+ miles a week, including a long run of at least 8 miles, preferably more. I wouldn't be trying to run as fast as I could without warming up for at least a mile first (probably more) so I'd want to be comfortable running further than 5k because my races would go warm-up+race+cool-down. When you're comfortable running higher mileage (NOT pushing the pace) you'll probably find your best 5k gets faster naturally. Once it stops getting faster, that's when you'll want to start adding interval training.3
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Cisseismint wrote: »My thinking is that if I just keep doing what I am doing then in a few more months I can get down near to 20 mins and enter a race.
I'd suggest just entering a race now, rather than putting it off.I have looked at training plans online and they all seem so complicated. 1 long easy run at x% of vo2 something or other, interval pyramids, hill sessions, wtf? Why can't I just keep running 5k and try and get a few seconds faster every time? Surely the best way to get better at running 5k is to keep running 5k a little faster every time?
Different types of run have different physiological effects, as does the sequencing of runs.
The long steady distances build aerobic capacity, and once you've got a solid aerobic base other types of sessions can impact on your maximal output and our tolerance for running at fast paces.
Given what you describe you're likely to see most gains from running longer, as noted upthread. I'd generally suggest not bothering with intervals and tempo sessions until you're running 10km 4 times per week, giving you a solid aerobic base to build on.
As noted for a competitive 5K time about 30mi pw is a reasonable target to be aiming for. It's not a focus area for me so can't point you at anything specific, but you shouldn't need it right now, just get a simple 10k plan and use that, you'll gain a bit from that
To put it in perspective, my focus is endurance distance, so I don't run less than 6 miles per session and my 5k time is 22 minutes without focused training.
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A wise coach once told me not to worry about running a fast 5K until I could run a slow 10km......
The vast majority of your runs should actually be at a conversational pace. Aerobic base first, speed later.
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You're over complicating it... if you want to run 3x a week, then have 2 shorter runs and one long run. Do 5k at a steady pace 2x a week and slowly increase your long run up to 10k.
As others have said, the best way to run faster is to run further.
And signing up for a race will give you something to aim for.4 -
When I started running in my late 40's, it didn't even occur to me to find and follow a training plan. I hadn't even heard of C25K until after I had ran a few already. I just went outside and started running - alternating with walking until I was able to run continuously. Took about 12 weeks and I was ready to run my first 5K. I didn't care about pace or time, I just wanted the satisfaction of completing it. I then just ran a few easy miles 3-4 times a week and gradually increased my Saturday morning long run each weekend. I then ran a few 10K races and even traveled to run the Army Ten Miler in Washington DC (very cool!) about a year after my first 5K. After that, I set my goal at a half marathon. My weekday easy runs were now about 5 miles and I would occasionally run a fewer weekday runs at a faster pace than normal. On my weekend long runs, I would just increase my distance each time by a mile or so. By 2 weeks before the half marathon, I would make sure I was able to run a 10 mile long run. I've finished 5 half marathons. I'm solidly in the back of the middle of the pack, but have a great time doing it! Speed will come with time. Focus on having a solid base of many easy miles. You will improve!4
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Hey everyone thanks for all the replies. They really do help.
I took your advice and did a longer run today. I ran 10k so double my usual distance. I had to slow it down a bit as I got a bit tired so I only managed 55 mins. It was really odd but it seemed to get easier after the first 5k, I kinda relaxed and felt like I could run forever, until 8 or 9k, when I it really started to feel unpleasant.
So I guess I can do 1 slow 10k per week, 1 all out 5k and then either a slower 5k or some intervals or something and see if that works. I was kind of reluctant to change as I had been progressing just running 5k over and over again as fast as I can, but I can see that is not the most efficient method.
The thing is I don't want to be running 30 miles a week. That would interfere with my other activities. I play soccer twice a week and lift weights 3 times a week. If I ran 30miles a week I wouldn't have much time for anything but running.
Maybe I am expecting too much but one of the guys I play football can squat more than twice his body weight and run an 18min 5k. That's what got me thinking about running 5k. It's a good distance just to get some cardio fitness to help with my soccer and it can all be over quite quickly so I have time for other stuff. I really don't wanna turn into a super skinny marathon runner, I would loose all the muscles I spent the last year and a half trying to grow, lol.
Anyways thanks for all the help. I will encorporate longer runs (put probably no more than 10k) and see how I get on.2 -
Also I took your other advice and signed up for a race. It's a local park run that does timed runs every Saturday morning. I have signed up and am doing it next Saturday with my 18min 5k soccer buddy. Well, when I say with him I'll start with him and see him at the end if he waits for me. Lol.5
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5k, 5k and 10k isn't 30 miles a week it's 12.4....2
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10km in 55 minutes is a reasonable time, a pretty comfortable training pace, although if you started to burn out at 8km that would suggest you went out too fast. That's not uncommon.
fwiw 25-30 miles pw is about the start point for a marathon plan, that's only 5 hours or so. You're not going to lose lean mass or definition on that.
Anyway, Parkrun is worth doing.1 -
Just to be different (awkward!) I'm going to vote for intervals. I think they break the runs up. I use a free app called 5k pacer (I'm using 10k pacer trying to get quicker at 10k at the moment). I'm actually doing less miles but getting quicker (go figure) I also did runkeepers training plan which had 4min run 1min walk (x6) once a week, which worked for me as a great short workout.1
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berolcolour wrote: »Just to be different (awkward!) I'm going to vote for intervals. I think they break the runs up. I use a free app called 5k pacer (I'm using 10k pacer trying to get quicker at 10k at the moment). I'm actually doing less miles but getting quicker (go figure) I also did runkeepers training plan which had 4min run 1min walk (x6) once a week, which worked for me as a great short workout.
Intervals are great for experienced runners. Beginners risk injury when they go to fast. The key is to build endurance slowly so you do not get overuse injuries.
BTW - Even though you are 'in shape' or athletic, if you haven't run distances, you are a beginner.
To the OP - Long runs are a great way to increase your speed but you have to build up slowly. Suddenly doing 10k when all you normally do is 5K is another recipe for injury. The most widely accepted rule is to never add more than 10% to your weekly total.2 -
If you play soccer, you're doing a lot of running on the field. If you're curious how much, try wearing a pedometer one game. I bet it's a few miles.2
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berolcolour wrote: »Just to be different (awkward!) I'm going to vote for intervals. I think they break the runs up. I use a free app called 5k pacer (I'm using 10k pacer trying to get quicker at 10k at the moment). I'm actually doing less miles but getting quicker (go figure) I also did runkeepers training plan which had 4min run 1min walk (x6) once a week, which worked for me as a great short workout.
BTW - Even though you are 'in shape' or athletic, if you haven't run distances, you are a beginner.
Can I ask (just curious!) what you mean by run distances? As in long distance? Half marathon/marathon distances. I've never heard the distinction before and never thought about where the cut off between beginner and runner. Personally, I never plan on running more than a 10k, it doesn't appeal to me to be able to run for further (although I'm also happy to be a beginner forever!)
FYI I'm neither in shape nor athletic!
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10k in 55 minutes is respectable! Especially if your just starting out! My best is 65 minutes and it's taken me a year to get there. But my son just started running 7 weeks ago and he's about where you are. Lucky fellas!
Sounds like you are on track. Run slow, listen to your body. There's a monthly running challenge group your welcome to join, or just make friends and learn! (See groups, running challenge- the owner has posted quick reads and explanations as well as the monthly group) http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10435521/august-2016-running-challenge#latest
Edit- I read once that it wasn't uncommon for a soccer player to run the equivalent of a marathon during a game. Even if you're running half of that, you should pick up running fine after you unlock the how. Enjoy!1 -
berolcolour wrote: »berolcolour wrote: »Just to be different (awkward!) I'm going to vote for intervals. I think they break the runs up. I use a free app called 5k pacer (I'm using 10k pacer trying to get quicker at 10k at the moment). I'm actually doing less miles but getting quicker (go figure) I also did runkeepers training plan which had 4min run 1min walk (x6) once a week, which worked for me as a great short workout.
BTW - Even though you are 'in shape' or athletic, if you haven't run distances, you are a beginner.
Can I ask (just curious!) what you mean by run distances? As in long distance? Half marathon/marathon distances. I've never heard the distinction before and never thought about where the cut off between beginner and runner. Personally, I never plan on running more than a 10k, it doesn't appeal to me to be able to run for further (although I'm also happy to be a beginner forever!)
FYI I'm neither in shape nor athletic!
If you are running a mile or 2 a few days a week your body will probably handle it fine. The problems start to happen when you are running further/longer times. Each time your foot hits the ground it supports 2-3 times your body weight. Running longer distance makes you repeat this stress thousands of times. And each time your foot strikes the ground, your body becomes more fatigued.
Think of it this way. If you grab a barbell and start to curl it you may get a few reps at first before your body gives up. If you slowly and consistently do curls a couple times a week you will eventually be able to lift it for more reps. Now imagine this same process happening in your ankles. The difference is that your ankles don't stop you from 'curling' more than you can. They just eventually become injured.0 -
I'll be the contrarian here and suggest that you don't need to be doing intervals if you are playing soccer regularly. Do some longer training runs and train for the speed you need on the pitch. Of course, if you are playing fullback or goalie, you won't be running as much as a midfielder! If you want to really get competitive (sub 18 or better) you're probably going to need to run specific 5k interval workouts.0
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I read once that it wasn't uncommon for a soccer player to run the equivalent of a marathon during a game. Even if you're running half of that, you should pick up running fine after you unlock the how. Enjoy!
That would be very impressive, with a football match taking 90 minutes and the marathon record still in excess of 2 hours...
I think the material point is, football involves short dashes with some rest intervals, whereas running medium to long distances doesn't allow for the recovery in the same way. Injury risk remains quite high, and in that sense I'd agree with the point upthread about he originator still being a beginner in that respect. There is lots about injury prevention, pace management, nutrition/ hydration etc that differs.
Still, sticking to 15-20 miles per week is certainly going to benefit the originator, but I suspect expectations of significant improvement without focus is perhaps a little unrealistic.
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berolcolour wrote: »Can I ask (just curious!) what you mean by run distances?
In principle anything longer than 800m is long distance, although I'd probably make the cut off in excess of the 1600 metre/ 1 mile. Mile and below are pretty much track distances and whilst 5000m and 10000m are track races the 5km is entry level road racing so there is a cross-over at that point.
The observation that I'd make about training plans is that 5k and 10k plans tend to be similar, then once you get to 10miler and half marathon distances there is a distinct change. Total weekly mileages are going to be different and the makeup and timing of sessions differs quite a lot. My current plans have me doing back to back runs midweek and at the weeks, so doing say 21km and 21km on Sat/ Sun or say 16km and 30km, heaviest getting to 21km then 32km, which was brutal. Midweek tends to be in the 10-16km range, so generally less than 10 miles on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
A 5km or 10km plan will have more frequent shorter runs, and no real need for the long back to backs. The point of the back to back is to acclimatise to running on tired legs.
So in the sense that the suggestion is a 30 mile week, that's a 10 mile long run and three 10km sessions, which might be two steady paced and one speed session, or perhaps one steady paced with two speed sessions. The speed sessions might be a tempo run or intervals. That's kind of entry level.
As noted upthread racing a 5k would involve about a mile or a mile and a half warm up, you're never going into a competitive race without preparation.
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Hey all, thanks for all the responses.
I wore an Apple Watch for a soccer game once and it said I ran almost 10k over the 90 mins. But that's a real mix of walking, jogging, sprints, and then jumping, twisting, turning shooting etc. So it's very different to normal running.
I think I may forget the idea of racing 5k competitively. I just liked the idea of adding 3 x 5k runs every week to my existing exercise regime and seeing how fast I could get. Doing that got me from 30mins to 25 mins in a couple of months so I was kind of hoping I could just keep doing that and get to sub 20mims. I really enjoy nipping out for a quick 5k and I can even do that straight after a weight lifting session as long as it wasn't leg day, but I am not really up for running much longer regularly. I read somewhere that long running sessions are really bad for you, leading to increased aging and muscle / strength loss. Do you think this is true? I definitely don't want that to happen.
Having said that I can see what you are all saying about being comfortable running more than 5k to be able to perform 5k at my best on race day. So I will do one 10k once a week, or maybe call it an hour so as I get fitter this may grow to 11 and then 12k in the same time. And then I can still do a couple of 5ks for fun during the week.
I recognise that this may not get me to be super competitive, but if it helps me get fitter for soccer, and gets me close to 20 mins without turning super skinny then I will be happy.
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Cisseismint wrote: »I read somewhere that long running sessions are really bad for you, leading to increased aging and muscle / strength loss. Do you think this is true?
Nope, it's bollox peddled by knuckle dragging meatheads based on one study.
There is some data suggesting that extreme endurance runners may have a higher incidence of some cardiac conditions, but that study was pretty simplistic and correlated only running, there was no related work on feeding strategies.
It surfaces on powerlifting sites on an annual basis.
As long you replace the calories used then no harm from running.1 -
Cisseismint wrote: »Also I took your other advice and signed up for a race. It's a local park run that does timed runs every Saturday morning. I have signed up and am doing it next Saturday with my 18min 5k soccer buddy. Well, when I say with him I'll start with him and see him at the end if he waits for me. Lol.
If you are running a 5km in over 20 minutes, it is not wise to set off a 18 minute pace with your friend. That's a sure fire way of gaining time not loosing it.1 -
As you're a reasonably fit man you *might* get to 20 mins without decent training, but at age 40 it might take a little more work than it would at 25. I'd at least drop the 'run a little faster every time' strategy and only put in the hard efforts at parkrun. You'll need the aerobic conditioning more.1
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JoshuaMcAllister wrote: »If you are running a 5km in over 20 minutes, it is not wise to set off a 18 minute pace with your friend. That's a sure fire way of gaining time not loosing it.
Lol, yes I agree with that. I'll be happy to break 25 mins so I won't be trying to match him once we set off. I meant I'll drive there with him and line up with him at the start and them see him at the end.
He's such a bastid, he hardly trains, eats crap all the time but looks like an althlete and can run like mo farah. I don't even know why he's my buddy, I hate him really. Lolol2 -
Cisseismint wrote: »JoshuaMcAllister wrote: »If you are running a 5km in over 20 minutes, it is not wise to set off a 18 minute pace with your friend. That's a sure fire way of gaining time not loosing it.
Lol, yes I agree with that. I'll be happy to break 25 mins so I won't be trying to match him once we set off. I meant I'll drive there with him and line up with him at the start and them see him at the end.
He's such a bastid, he hardly trains, eats crap all the time but looks like an althlete and can run like mo farah. I don't even know why he's my buddy, I hate him really. Lolol
We all have a friend like that. Recently a friend of mine conquered the Ironman and just like you say eats like crap, doesn't structure training as well as he should but still managed to complete it in a ridiculous respectable time.1 -
My ex was like that. He'd go out and run half marathon distances, and then light up a cigarette as soon as he was done (there were a couple of times I ran with him and he lit up in the middle of the run - I wanted to kick him). He ate garbage, drank like a fish, and smoked at least a pack a day. I don't even know how his body handles it, but it does.0
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I used c25k to train for my first 5k but after that I just started adding longer times to my run. I am training for my second half marathon and will just add minutes to my run.. Meaning I will decide how long I will run... Run half of it and turn around. I am not going to focus on miles for the next few weeks.0
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »Cisseismint wrote: »I read somewhere that long running sessions are really bad for you, leading to increased aging and muscle / strength loss. Do you think this is true?
Nope, it's bollox peddled by knuckle dragging meatheads based on one study.
There is some data suggesting that extreme endurance runners may have a higher incidence of some cardiac conditions, but that study was pretty simplistic and correlated only running, there was no related work on feeding strategies.
It surfaces on powerlifting sites on an annual basis.
As long you replace the calories used then no harm from running.
Yeah, the Wall Street Journal loves to recycle this story about every 6 months. Last time they did, i followed their references to another news story which in turn (badly) summarized a study in The Lancet. The study actually argued the exact opposite point than the WSJ was making --- the abstract said in part "...We were not able to find any upper limit on the value of aerobic exercise."0 -
Why do runners swap randomly from miles to km? 'if youwant to run a 5k at 4mins per km, then you need to run 30miles, per week with a slow run of at least 10miles at 8 feet 7 inches per second,' said the runner trying to use as many different measurement units as possible in a single sentence, lmao.0
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Because British (and American?) runners work in miles and minutes per mile, but the increasing popularity of metric distance races like 5k and 10k instead of the traditional 5 miles (for example) means that we sometimes switch to km when it's easy to calculate pace against the markers. Especially if, say, you wanted to do a sub 20 min 5k, which you do, because then you are thinking about 4 mins per km, which is simpler to do than 6:26 per mile. If you were racing a half marathon or a marathon in the UK you'd want to be thinking in miles, because there wouldn't be km markers (except that you might get them every 5km in a marathon).2
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Different races are measured in both:
- 100m
- 200m
- 400m = 1/4 mi
- 800m = 1/2 mi
- 1600m = 1mi
- 5000m
- 10000m
- 5km = 3.1mi
- 5mi
- 10km = 6.2km
- 10mi
- Half Marathon = 13.1mi = 21.1km
- 20mi
- Marathon = 26.2 mi = 42.2km
- 50km
- 12 hour
- 50mi
- 100km
- 24 hour
- 100 mi
Becomes really easy to convert and swap between depending on objectives2
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