Eat stop eat = anorexia?

DontThinkJustRun · July 2011

I'm doing the Venus Index Program for my strength training program, but not really following their diet plan other then just watching my cals via MFP. Anywho, I've been listening to their podcasts and their ideas about Eat Stop Eat (a.k.a. intermittent fasting) and I just cannot understand how this isn't on the verge of anorexia in the way they are using it. And what I mean by that is that many of these people are eating sub 1,000 cals AND practicing 24-48 hour fasts to acheive their goals. To be fair they are still eating "normally" in social situations and stuff, but what I'm hearing through their interviews in their podcasts in quite, I dunno, extreme? I guess I just have issue with it because they are saying that eating back your exercise cals is wrong and you should never ever eat over your BMR, blah blah blah. And I'm sorry but I've lost 130 lbs eating anywhere from 1500 to 2000 cals depending on what's going on and regularly "cheating" or whatever on the weekends. I understand that that isn't going to work for everyone, but is it really ever necessary to go to that extreme?

To be fair, if that's what works for your lifestyle, more power to you - whatever works for you I get it and I know it's sounds like I'm judging, but I'm not. This just seems crazy and I'm the first to admit I'm completely uneducated about it. I guess I'm just curious to see if anyone is doing it and why and what kind of cals are you consuming on a daily basis. I just know this is gaining a lot of popularity and I'm a little frightened about what it means for the weight loss culture...I don't really know where I'm going with this posts, I guess my brain is just swimming with all the information on these podcasts. I think I just need to remember what works for me is fine and what works for others is great to.

Mindful_Trent · July 2011

I'm not particularly well versed in intermittent fasting, but it's my understanding that if you do it correctly, you should still be getting a fairly normal calorie intake, just in a shorter period of time.

I'm curious to see what people who practice Intermittent fasting say. I'd be interested in hearing what their average calorie intakes end up coming out to on a weekly basis.

amysj303 · July 2011

I never thought of it as anorexia, but it may be a kind of "disordered" relationship with food. I haven't tried it but I know some folks who have and I think there is some science behind it, but I thought it was for people who were trying to reduce body fat from already normal levels. Like someone wanting to go from 18% body fat to 14% body fat. I don't know that much about it.
Sounds like you have been very successful and reasonable, no need to go for these extremes.

tigersmoondiva · July 2011

I have been doing Eat Stop Eat since January - and I have lost about 35 pounds. -That is with a "bad thyroid." Nothing else worked but this did. The only problems I have ever had with Eat Stop Eat is when I have tried to "admit" to it as I am now. For whatever reason - people feel free to be really NASTY to people following these types of diets.

My guess here mentioning this here will get me run out of here just as it did Fat Secret. I guess that's just the nature of the beast.

On my "eating" days I get about 1500-1600 calories. On my "not eating" days it's around 2 or 300 (cause you still get one meal on that day.)

DontThinkJustRun · July 2011

I think you're right, I have heard a few stories of people using it "correctly" so to speak. And if that fits into your lifestyle, then great. I guess I'm super concerned about this idea or culture of people who are doing pretty intense exercise and eating so low (aka well below BMR).

I guess I also just don't understand when they say - oh I feel great! I swear to you and I supposed because it's what my body is used to, but if I don't eat enough I get dizzy during workout outs. So how on earth are they eating sub 1,000 and functioning? Let alone working out on fasting days...I think I probably need to back off...No. 1 It's none of my business, No. 2 It's not my thing so why do I care...I guess I'm bored at work and need interesting podcasts to pass the time - LOL!

godblessourhome · July 2011

i have never listened to the podcasts you mentioned and have no idea if they have taken the idea behind eat stop eat too far. i have done i.f. in the past and felt wonderful! i'd eat around 1288 calories on a non-fasting day and 600 on a fasting day. it improved my mood, my energy and my ability to say no to food cravings. i stopped in april after a surgery, but really need to return to it. i honestly felt strong and powerful.

in my opinion it's not even close to anorexia; although you do control the food that you eat (or not) on a fasting day, it's not in an emotionally unhealthy way.

DontThinkJustRun · July 2011

So Godbless can you explain a little more on why you do it? It's ok if you don't want to.

Is it so you can eat a little more on nonfast days or to make up for "cheat days" or because it gives you more energy or because you think it will help you lose faster?

LorinaLynn · July 2011

If it works for you, fantastic!

But personally? I was having a hard time "fasting" between lunch and dinner tonight (husband worked late, so I ate late). I was getting irritable, lightheaded and weak. Every time I bent over, my head throbbed.

chrisdavey · July 2011

never eat over your BMR: umm WTF???

I don't know what the Venus Index Program is but from reading ESE book, the way Brad Pillon explains it is that you can effectively eat at maintenance levels for 5 days of the week, do your fasts twice a week (still eating one meal on that day) which will usually result in deficits on those days unless you have a seriously large meal. Therefore, over the whole week you get your deficit from 2 days and don't worry "too" much about the other 5.

I can see what you mean regarding ED's and this style. IMO this type of diet is not a good idea for people who still have a lot of weight to lose. Regular calorie deficits through diet and exercise are all that's required. I have tried ESE a couple of times before and for me it wasn't worth it.

I practice leangains style IF which is a 16 hr fast and 8hr feeding window every day. Calories and macros count. This is also recommended for those who are relatively lean to begin with. Like a "how to lose the last 10lbs" type thing.

Oh and with LG style, it isn't just for losing weight. There are different protocols for cals/macros if you want to recomp or gain weight. I find it very sustainable and have had good results. As well as that, I can eat some physically massive meals and not worry about it :P One thing about LG style is that it is about getting a high protein diet and incorporating heavy resistance training to ensure that you aren't catabolic during your fasting.

Eating below your BMR for one day should not harm your metabolism.

heart_explodes · July 2011

I think it's unfair to say that just because you're controlling your eating habits that it's close to anorexia - these people still eat controlled meals on a routine. If that's the case, isn't everyone whose controlling their eating habits on here be considered to have disordered eating?
I've read a lot of research on intermittent fasting (over 24 hour periods) and it seems like it actually has a lot benefits.
I think like everything in weight loss it's up the individual. I couldn't do it, I like my routine and my food way too much (probably how I got to this point in the first place!), but if it works for other people, great for them!

LaJauna · July 2011

Personally, I eat to hunger. I just am not hungry on awakening. I usually start to feel hunger about 2:30-3:00pm. I then eat a large meal with lots of veggies, meat and healthy fats. I make allowances for a snack later in the evening if I am still wanting something to munch on. I average around 1700-2000 cals a day. I have enough energy to walk on the treadmill an hour a day. I am trying to listen to my body. I am not starving myself nor do I have an obsession with eating like I did when I was grazing all day long. This works for me.

kklindsey · July 2011

ANY weight loss method can lead to anorexia if you are one of the unfortunate people with a brain wired that way. Anorexia is a mental disorder which manifests itself in starvation and if you don't have the underlying issues you are not going to become an anorexic from eating a certain way. If it were that easy most people who have ever gone on a diet would end up being anorexics.

DontThinkJustRun · July 2011

Yeah, I apologize for calling it anorexic, that was a little harsh. I think ESE as it was intended is probably great, I think my issue is the way these guys and gals are using it and what's weird is they are very close with Brad. Maybe I'm missing something I dunno. I will say that many of them are getting down to the nitty gritty BF and so I guess something this drastic could be necessary for fitness competitions and such...I just feel like it's a slippery slope.

Of course, I'm pretty controlled about my own eating - I eat low(ish) during the week to allow for indulgences on the weekends...so to each their own I guess.

chrisdavey · July 2011

Also, on the topic of fasted training: I have no idea why but I have set most of my PR's doing fasted training (with BCAA's only prior). There is a whole heap of science to back it up as well. When I think about it logically, it doesn't seem to make sense but proof is in the pudding for me.

Having said that, also depends on what sort of exercise you are doing. For the first few times, I seemed to lose a bit of muscular endurance but strength was not decreased.

mamagooskie · July 2011

I've heard of it and from what I've read it was suggested to not work out on fasting days but the calorie intake on even the fasting days can be a substantial amount.

godblessourhome · July 2011

So Godbless can you explain a little more on why you do it? It's ok if you don't want to.

Is it so you can eat a little more on nonfast days or to make up for "cheat days" or because it gives you more energy or because you think it will help you lose faster?

i didn't use it to eat more on non-fasting days or to make up for overindulging. i feel that would probably be a bad habit for me to get into.

but it did help me lose weight faster, and not just weight, but fat.

currently, i think about food A LOT. what and when i am going to eat. when i did e.s.e. once or twice a week, my outlook on food changed to become less important. i actually thought about food and eating less often. also i don't know why, but it really seemed to help with craving sweets. my blood sugar (and therefore my mood) was more controlled and level. i found i.f. enjoyable.

godblessourhome · July 2011

by the way, congrats on your huge weight loss success!!!

DontThinkJustRun · July 2011

^thanks!

mom2lakenjj · April 2012

bump

hpsnickers1 · April 2012

If done right, it is very, very healthy. Predators gorge and fast. Prey grazes. Humans are predators. Our gut isn't meant to be digesting all day long. Getting tired after eating is normal because your energy is going to digesting food. If you are digesting food all day long you will feel tired all day long. (the complete digestion process takes about 5-6 hours.)

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-weight-loss/#axzz1rwsLPNEZ
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-cancer/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-longevity-lifespan/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-brain-function/#axzz1rwsLPNEZ
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-exercise-workout-recovery/#axzz1rwsLPNEZ

also:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread29011.html (The Impact of a 40 hour fast: contains graphs and some science)

Sometimes I will not eat during the day just so I can go home and have a HUGE dinner. Dinner is and always will be my biggest meal (think about it. Our primal ancestors didn't wake up and made sure to eat breakfast because it is so important. And they didn't "make sure to eat every couple of hours to keep the blood sugar up". They might have had some leftovers from the previous day's meal). They spent the day "hunting and gathering" then had their biggest meal in the evening.

I have to admit that the program you're describing doesn't sound healthy at all. And the quality of the food you eat when not fasting is very, very important, too. Eat what you can pick, dig or spear. Mostly spear (gnolls.org). Eat real food.

I have no idea of the calories I consume on a daily basis, though. And I don't "make up for it" on my eating days. I just eat when I'm hungry. Sometimes I don't eat when I'm hungry. But I'm fat-adapted.

daisymae9801 · April 2012

Why does everyone want to base our eating of our ancestors?

mfpcopine · April 2012

Why does everyone want to base our eating of our ancestors?

It makes a certain amount of sense. Early human beings had to be very active, food was neither plentiful nor guaranteed, and we have a long experience with it.

Today, human beings, especially in the prosperous U.S., are sedentary, eat much more than they need of unhealthy food that's easily available and usually cheap. The food is often made tasty or, arguably "addictive" by adding things to it, additives and ingredients that were invented only relatively recently. The human body did not evolve to process this kind of food with this kind of lifestyle.

I don't buy all aspects of primal-type eating, but its recommendations don't come out of nowhere.

mfpcopine · April 2012

East Stop Eat and Intermittent Fasting do not cause anorexia unless you already have a predisposition. If you have a predisposition to an ED, I'm not sure the particular diet you follow will make a difference; anything could set you off.

Eat stop eat = anorexia?

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