Starvation mode... a myth?
Travis_GM
Posts: 141 Member
Hello all!
I realize many people have some strong opinions about whether or not one should eat the lowest amount of calories they can to lose fat the fastest but I'd like to know if anyone has any solid evidence as to the fact that if you go too low your body will enter into "starvation mode"-- retain more calories than it should.
I'm not necessarily talking about ketosis or anything like that, just curious if one's goal is to lose fat and retain muscle, couldn't one just go on a protein fast (eating their 1g/lb. of body weight requirement in protein and no carbs or fat) to maximize their fat loss and minimize muscle loss?
Again, I'd really prefer some solid evidence in the form of scientific articles/journals or from a reputable source.
Thanks y'all!!
I realize many people have some strong opinions about whether or not one should eat the lowest amount of calories they can to lose fat the fastest but I'd like to know if anyone has any solid evidence as to the fact that if you go too low your body will enter into "starvation mode"-- retain more calories than it should.
I'm not necessarily talking about ketosis or anything like that, just curious if one's goal is to lose fat and retain muscle, couldn't one just go on a protein fast (eating their 1g/lb. of body weight requirement in protein and no carbs or fat) to maximize their fat loss and minimize muscle loss?
Again, I'd really prefer some solid evidence in the form of scientific articles/journals or from a reputable source.
Thanks y'all!!
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Replies
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Empirical evidence would say that anorexic people would always be fat if starvation mode existed.
Small adjustments to metabolism (thermal something or other) maybe, but not like how most talk about starvation mode. These small adjustments would likely have little to no effect. Sorry I don't have research on that. I personally am not willing to live that way so I didn't care much to research it.8 -
Well, there is a limit to how much of your body fat your body can break down for energy per day. So if you go below a certain number of calories, even being protein-heavy on a VLCD isn't going to maximize fat loss and minimize muscle loss. Your body will use muscle to make up the difference between what it needs and the amount of body fat that can be broken down within a given period of time.6
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janejellyroll wrote: »Well, there is a limit to how much of your body fat your body can break down for energy per day. So if you go below a certain number of calories, even being protein-heavy on a VLCD isn't going to maximize fat loss and minimize muscle loss. Your body will use muscle to make up the difference between what it needs and the amount of body fat that can be broken down within a given period of time.
And the continuance of breaking down of muscle (the heart is a muscle) you will eventually die.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Well, there is a limit to how much of your body fat your body can break down for energy per day. So if you go below a certain number of calories, even being protein-heavy on a VLCD isn't going to maximize fat loss and minimize muscle loss. Your body will use muscle to make up the difference between what it needs and the amount of body fat that can be broken down within a given period of time.
Hate to be a bug but can you provide evidence for that? I'd like to know for sure that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat per day and if it goes below that it'll use protein. Appreciate the responses!1 -
Empirical evidence would say that anorexic people would always be fat if starvation mode existed.
Small adjustments to metabolism (thermal something or other) maybe, but not like how most talk about starvation mode. These small adjustments would likely have little to no effect. Sorry I don't have research on that. I personally am not willing to live that way so I didn't care much to research it.
Good point. Anorexic people also don't have much muscle haha0 -
The only articles I've found discuss PSMF in relation to severely obese subjects who can sustain a larger deficit than those with less weight to lose:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27335996
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25183847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/240276061 -
The only articles I've found discuss PSMF in relation to severely obese subjects who can sustain a larger deficit than those with less weight to lose:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27335996
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25183847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24027606
Thanks for that. I know someone mentioned I think someone with the last name McDonald and how he's done some studies or something on that... just can't find them. Thanks again
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Empirical evidence would say that anorexic people would always be fat if starvation mode existed.
Small adjustments to metabolism (thermal something or other) maybe, but not like how most talk about starvation mode. These small adjustments would likely have little to no effect. Sorry I don't have research on that. I personally am not willing to live that way so I didn't care much to research it.
Adaptive Thermogenesis.2 -
The only articles I've found discuss PSMF in relation to severely obese subjects who can sustain a larger deficit than those with less weight to lose:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27335996
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25183847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24027606
Thanks for that. I know someone mentioned I think someone with the last name McDonald and how he's done some studies or something on that... just can't find them. Thanks again
Lyle McDonald on Metabolic Damage: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/
...As originally claimed, metabolic damage referred to a phenomenon wherby dieters (typically females) who had been on low calories and performing a large amount of cardio (i.e. typical physique sport contest prep)- Stopped losing fat despite maintained low calories/high activity
- Started regaining fat despite those same maintained low calories/high activity
...the science doesn’t support [starvation mode] in any way shape or form. No study in humans in 50 years has ever shown the claimed phenomenon. I mean not ever. Not a single study showing truly stopped fat loss in the face of a controlled deficit much less fat regain. And with plenty of other mechanisms (like water retention) to explain the “apparent” lack of fat loss that make more logical sense (Occam’s razor for the win).2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »The only articles I've found discuss PSMF in relation to severely obese subjects who can sustain a larger deficit than those with less weight to lose:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27335996
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25183847
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24027606
Thanks for that. I know someone mentioned I think someone with the last name McDonald and how he's done some studies or something on that... just can't find them. Thanks again
Lyle McDonald on Metabolic Damage: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/
...the science doesn’t support [starvation mode] in any way shape or form. No study in humans in 50 years has ever shown the claimed phenomenon. I mean not ever. Not a single study showing truly stopped fat loss in the face of a controlled deficit much less fat regain. And with plenty of other mechanisms (like water retention) to explain the “apparent” lack of fat loss that make more logical sense (Occam’s razor for the win).
Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!0 -
total myth3
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My personal favorite: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/6
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Have you read these threads yet? Quotes from and links to reputable sources are included.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1077746/starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss/p1
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/7618101 -
kshama2001 wrote: »My personal favorite: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/
hahaha the author of that has some serious opinions about people who believe in the starvation mode!0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Well, there is a limit to how much of your body fat your body can break down for energy per day. So if you go below a certain number of calories, even being protein-heavy on a VLCD isn't going to maximize fat loss and minimize muscle loss. Your body will use muscle to make up the difference between what it needs and the amount of body fat that can be broken down within a given period of time.
Hate to be a bug but can you provide evidence for that? I'd like to know for sure that the body can only metabolize a certain amount of fat per day and if it goes below that it'll use protein. Appreciate the responses!
I believe this paper is discussing it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615?dopt=AbstractPlus
The amount I often see referenced is 31 calories per pound of body fat -- I don't know how much this paper supports it, as I have never read it.
This doesn't really relate to "starvation mode," as people will continue to lose weight on a VLCD. It just won't be the fat they (presumably) want to target.3 -
kshama2001 wrote: »My personal favorite: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/
hahaha the author of that has some serious opinions about people who believe in the starvation mode!
I love this author!1 -
Lyle McDonald on Metabolic Damage: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/
...the science doesn’t support [starvation mode] in any way shape or form. No study in humans in 50 years has ever shown the claimed phenomenon. I mean not ever. Not a single study showing truly stopped fat loss in the face of a controlled deficit much less fat regain. And with plenty of other mechanisms (like water retention) to explain the “apparent” lack of fat loss that make more logical sense (Occam’s razor for the win).[/quote]
Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks![/quote]
First time I've read that. It's great4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »My personal favorite: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/
Thanks for sharing this. Great article. 0 -
Practically speaking in terms of what you should care about for weight loss for your average joe yeah its a myth.0
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What 99% of people who talk about not losing weight, starvation mode, lack of protein, blah, blah, blah macros need to read.
Top 11 reasons you are not losing weight!
http://www.acaloriecounter.com/blog/why-am-i-not-losing-weight/2 -
I'm sorry I can't find the article again but I remember reading somewhere that you will enter ketosis after about 4 days of fasting because that's how long it takes for your body to use up its fat reserves and then has to go into ketosis. It also warned of the awful side effects. Very unhealthy, I'd say! I can barely last half a day with no food, let alone 4 whole days! This statement does make me wonder if diets such as 5:2/16:8 etc are just another more structured way to calorie control and not exactly 'fasting'.0
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Strictly speaking from experience, I was not losing weight on a low calorie diet and doing lots of cardio. It worked for me in the past, but maybe my body is rebelling from years of dieting. I was running, biking, and also did some short but intense workouts such as HIIT with bodyweight. I was eating anywhere from 1000-1400 most days, depending on how many calories I burned. I am only 4'11 and myfitnesspal recommends 1200 for me. Well the weight was not budging and I only had about 5 lbs I wanted to lose. The smaller you are, the harder it is to lose and that weight was hanging on for dear life! Undereating and over-exercising was obviously not working for me so I took a different approach. I now eat 1500-1800 calories a day (depending on activity level), sometimes higher on weekends. I now only focus on HIIT workouts, supersets, and only go on long walks if I want to get some low impact exercise. I only walk because this does not raise cortisol and actually lowers it. I believe undereating and over-exercising was messing with my hormones because as soon as I stopped doing that, I have lost about 3 lbs, which is a good improvement for my small frame. I also think adding weights to my workout routine has helped me build muscle, which burns more calories at rest. I don't know if my body was in starvation mode or whatever you want to call it, but this is my experience. I am done listening to the "move more, eat less" advice because that did not work for me and thank god it didn't because I was not happy eating 1000-1400 calories a day. Imaging eating 1400 calories/day after running 7 miles...1
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Ketosis can also be reached by consuming less than ~30g of carbs per day without fasting.I'm sorry I can't find the article again but I remember reading somewhere that you will enter ketosis after about 4 days of fasting because that's how long it takes for your body to use up its fat reserves and then has to go into ketosis. It also warned of the awful side effects. Very unhealthy, I'd say! I can barely last half a day with no food, let alone 4 whole days! This statement does make me wonder if diets such as 5:2/16:8 etc are just another more structured way to calorie control and not exactly 'fasting'.
Regarding the body using up its fat stores in 4 days....I wish! This wouldn't make sense to anyone who is overweight and beyond... If it took us 4 days to lose or fat reserves, no one would be overweight...
And I wouldn't be here.
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Strictly speaking from experience, I was not losing weight on a low calorie diet and doing lots of cardio. It worked for me in the past, but maybe my body is rebelling from years of dieting. I was running, biking, and also did some short but intense workouts such as HIIT with bodyweight. I was eating anywhere from 1000-1400 most days, depending on how many calories I burned. I am only 4'11 and myfitnesspal recommends 1200 for me. Well the weight was not budging and I only had about 5 lbs I wanted to lose. The smaller you are, the harder it is to lose and that weight was hanging on for dear life! Undereating and over-exercising was obviously not working for me so I took a different approach. I now eat 1500-1800 calories a day (depending on activity level), sometimes higher on weekends. I now only focus on HIIT workouts, supersets, and only go on long walks if I want to get some low impact exercise. I only walk because this does not raise cortisol and actually lowers it. I believe undereating and over-exercising was messing with my hormones because as soon as I stopped doing that, I have lost about 3 lbs, which is a good improvement for my small frame. I also think adding weights to my workout routine has helped me build muscle, which burns more calories at rest. I don't know if my body was in starvation mode or whatever you want to call it, but this is my experience. I am done listening to the "move more, eat less" advice because that did not work for me and thank god it didn't because I was not happy eating 1000-1400 calories a day. Imaging eating 1400 calories/day after running 7 miles...
How accurate is your calorie counting? Do you use a food scale to weigh everything?
I, too, was very close to my goal weight and for years could not lose my excess weight. Thought I was doomed to live at the upper end of the BMi chart. The good people of MFP got me on the straight and narrow with the help of a food scale and have never looked back.2 -
Funny thing is, MFP's very own blog had an article a few days ago by someone talking about "starvation mode". It's no wonder there is confusion and misunderstandings.0
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MFP doesn't personally write those blogs..... They have 'bloggers' and sometimes they do push out some rather questionable content. I see it in FB all the time. Some articles are down right ridiculous.Jaidann1962 wrote: »Funny thing is, MFP's very own blog had an article a few days ago by someone talking about "starvation mode". It's no wonder there is confusion and misunderstandings.
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Ah - I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!0
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@queenliz99 My calorie counting is pretty accurate. I measure out everything and usually weigh things, but not always and sometimes rely on eyeballing. But I only eyeball things that are easy, like a pound of meat divided into 4 quarters which will be 4 oz. For things like sweet potato, I weigh it. But to get to the point, nothing has changed with how I log my calories. I actually don't even obsess about how much I eat anymore. If I want something, I eat it. If I'm hungry, I eat. I mainly log just to see where I'm at now. I am always at least 200-300 calories over what MFP recommends, lol. I should be gaining. But as I mentioned in my post, I have been lifting weights and could be burning more at rest, but not sure.0
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No problem. I've see some doozie posts! They're not written by any dietician or anything, and like most blog posts, the info should be taken with a grain of salt. Scientific papers are usually your best bet. Also, there are quite a few on here who are dieticians, are in the science field of work or are great personal trainers with lots of nutrition knowledge....they have some excellent knowledge.Jaidann1962 wrote: »Ah - I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!
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@queenliz99 My calorie counting is pretty accurate. I measure out everything and usually weigh things, but not always and sometimes rely on eyeballing. But I only eyeball things that are easy, like a pound of meat divided into 4 quarters which will be 4 oz. For things like sweet potato, I weigh it. But to get to the point, nothing has changed with how I log my calories. I actually don't even obsess about how much I eat anymore. If I want something, I eat it. If I'm hungry, I eat. I mainly log just to see where I'm at now. I am always at least 200-300 calories over what MFP recommends, lol. I should be gaining. But as I mentioned in my post, I have been lifting weights and could be burning more at rest, but not sure.
So what you're saying is that your counting is not accurate at all.5
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