Calorie Counting FOREVER.

stevencloser wrote: »

Sued0nim wrote: »

endlessfall16 wrote: »

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

endlessfall16 wrote: »

Need2Exerc1se wrote: »

bblue656 wrote: »

You will NOT be forced to count calories for the rest of your life. Once you are at your goal weight. You will just count calories for a couple months to learn what your body will need to maintain, then it should be easy

Just like any other diet some will eventually learn proper portion control without the tool and some will not. The reason most people regain is that they quit whatever they were doing when they lost weight. That's why it's so important to find a method of weight loss that is comfortable enough to be sustainable long term, or will at least give you the knowledge to proceed without it.

Since you and another mfp veteran Aaron have mentioned "proper portion" , I also feel the need to chime in that the "skill" to identify "proper portion" or accurate control is really unnecessary, if not time wasting and futile, per my experience.

Generally, for outside, unless you order a second meal -- who does that --, most restaurants don't serve obscenely big portions. So no accidentally walking into a calorie bomb that the body cannot handle. Or at home I doubt if people can't tell between a very full plate and a good size plate that is in healthy range.

My point here is the difference in portion size that we cannot tell does not significantly contribute to our weight problem. Our bodies and actions can easily manage this fluctuation.

What significantly contributes to most people's wt problem is the consistent over eating behavior. More specifically, it's their lack of discipline to cut back when they have to and they know that time. It's not their lack of portion assessment.

Anecdotally, in my counting days I (mistakenly) also thought that I needed to learn the "portion" skill. Soon I realized it was unnecessarily difficult and suffocatingly restrictive.

It's 10x easier and less energy to focus on developing discipline to identify when it is OK and cut back. Our bodies are very much built for handling fluctuation, much bigger than our perception could do with portion assessment.

I think most of my success comes from knowing where to focus my effort.

I don't know what restaurants you've been going to, but many many restaurants do indeed serve very large portions.

I'm thinking of the size of steaks served, serving sizes of pasta... things like that. They are huge.

For you to not think they're overly large? You must be a very, very tall man with a large frame whose normal portions are on the large side.

A palm sized piece of meat is something I don't recall seeing in any restaurant I've been in for a very, very long time. Don't even get me started on the size of a baked potato that comes with the average meal.

There are a few restaurants that give you options to order a very large steak but they also have options for very small steaks. A few months ago I went to a fine diner and ordered the largest 32 oz steak. I had to bring half home for next day, but it hardly did any damage to my diet that week.

I eat out a lot at casual places like Chipotle, Rubio, Carl Jr, privately owned restaurants and I never see any option that a healthy adult man couldn't finish.

However, the point here is if you manage your meals well, be a little disciplined with cutbacks, it makes no different whether you eat a 1500 cal Carl Jr meal or a 900 cal BajaFresh bowl. While you and others like yourself are concerned with every calorie point, I'm focused on cutbacks with other meals. Our bodies don't care that you eat 1500 calories in one meal and then 200 calories (a small sandwich) the next meal, or however less until the excess is gone; or even so less that it goes into deficit level. That's how weight is lost.

So, the issue is not the portion assessment or tight control. The issue is whether you are disciplined with cutbacks when needed.

You're wrong about portion sizes, even in Europe they verge on the large in many places. I've recently spent a week in the States and everywhere serves much larger portion sizes than what you should be eating (if not calorie counting)

And I say this as a volume eater (I am careful to pad out meals with low calorie volume foods cos I like to eat lots)

Within a week in the US my eyes and stomach and appetite adjusted to those portion sizes being "normal" and I'm struggling now to control my appetite

It isn't a "normal" portion size in terms of calorie intake

You're right about it not mattering when you eat your calories though

When I was on vacation in Canada, I had to have them pack up the leftovers in a restaurant because i couldn't finish it. Never happened before or since and that was when I was still overweight.

Which restaurant was that? Do you remember?

Christine_72 wrote: »

I've seen pictures and actual tv shows specifically talking about the sizes of American restaurant/take out meals, they are huge, and cheap too!

They vary. Finer dining restaurants (other than steak places) often have more normal portions (not unlike what I've seen in other countries), although they are still higher cal than something you'd make at home, of course, and it's harder to be as aware of that.

Doesn't sound like EndlessFall is talking about the kinds of restaurants that have the more normal portions, though, although if he's talking fast food of course it's easy to know what you are ordering (when I go to Chipotle I order something that has no more calories than any other lunch I might have). Instead, seems like he's assuming that if you overeat at a restaurant meal you will naturally (or can choose to) eat less leading up to it or after. It's true that if you realize you ate a ton of calories you can choose to cut back, and something people might do if aware that the servings are too large (indeed, this relates to portion control -- if you don't know the portions are large you wouldn't), to go back to Need2's point about portion control -- but not something people will do if they don't know that. And personally I don't enjoy eating the amounts some restaurants give you, so I prefer to notice that in advance, choose to eat half only, and not end up mindlessly consuming calories because I don't think about it and am focused on talking to friends or whatever and just eat what's on my plate. This is easy to do if one is aware and acts mindfully, but it's easy to stop doing if one decides that one no longer has to pay attention (or chooses, for some reason, not to learn about portion size)*.

I suppose it depends on size and all that, but I found it really easy to gain weight just by getting sloppy with portion size and my use of high cal ingredients (oil, cheese, butter). I don't think I need to measure and log to avoid that, but I do need to be mindful -- intuitive eating as in going by feel, not mind and paying attention, won't work for me. This is not, IMO, because of an unhealthy relationship with food, but because humans historically did need to eat when food is available, so most of us still have that skill (which makes it easy to overeat when food is consistently and always easily available).

*EndlessFall, are you assuming that by portion control or understanding portions people mean that they always eat precisely 4 oz of meat or some such? Because that's not what I understand the term to mean. I understand it to mean an awareness of about how much would be in a normal, at maintenance, meal for you, given the other components, and therefore if a meal has quite a few more calories than your normal meal (allowing you to not eat all of it or adjust at other meals). I use portion control and mindfulness in maintenance so far, but that doesn't mean my dinners are always the same number of calories -- it varies quite a bit. So I think you are arguing against a strawman. Knowing that if I go out to eat (as I am tonight) we are talking a lot more calories than my usual dinner allows me to adjust.

jessicapk wrote: »

I'm the same way but I don't think it's so horrible. That's like saying, "Oh, I'll never be able to have a checking account without tracking my expenses!" Phooey, your calories going in and being burned are just as OR MORE important than the money going in and out of your account.

^^This.

I have atrial fibrillation, and was told by my cardiologist I'd have to go on blood thinners for the rest of my life. That has dietary consequences. I was horrified by this at first -- but realizing that the alternative was death or becoming a vegetable due to strokes, it seemed like a small price to pay.

Ditto for counting calories. For me at least the stakes are too high, and as one person above said, it's not paying attention that has gotten me into trouble in the past (including the many times I've lost weight only put it right back on again). Some people do well with counting calories, some do well with intuitive eating or mindful eating, some do well with cognitive behavioral approaches. Find what works for you, and stick with it.

And yes, I know there are alternatives to coumadin and its dietary restrictions. Two doctors have told me that they work great, but if you have a medical crisis it can be very difficult for them to deal with bleeding because the alternatives can't be "turned off" by intravenous vitamin K like coumadin can. They don't tell you that in the ads for coumadin alternatives on the television.

stevencloser wrote: »

Wheelhouse15 wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

Sued0nim wrote: »

endlessfall16 wrote: »

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

endlessfall16 wrote: »

Need2Exerc1se wrote: »

bblue656 wrote: »

You will NOT be forced to count calories for the rest of your life. Once you are at your goal weight. You will just count calories for a couple months to learn what your body will need to maintain, then it should be easy

Just like any other diet some will eventually learn proper portion control without the tool and some will not. The reason most people regain is that they quit whatever they were doing when they lost weight. That's why it's so important to find a method of weight loss that is comfortable enough to be sustainable long term, or will at least give you the knowledge to proceed without it.

Since you and another mfp veteran Aaron have mentioned "proper portion" , I also feel the need to chime in that the "skill" to identify "proper portion" or accurate control is really unnecessary, if not time wasting and futile, per my experience.

Generally, for outside, unless you order a second meal -- who does that --, most restaurants don't serve obscenely big portions. So no accidentally walking into a calorie bomb that the body cannot handle. Or at home I doubt if people can't tell between a very full plate and a good size plate that is in healthy range.

My point here is the difference in portion size that we cannot tell does not significantly contribute to our weight problem. Our bodies and actions can easily manage this fluctuation.

What significantly contributes to most people's wt problem is the consistent over eating behavior. More specifically, it's their lack of discipline to cut back when they have to and they know that time. It's not their lack of portion assessment.

Anecdotally, in my counting days I (mistakenly) also thought that I needed to learn the "portion" skill. Soon I realized it was unnecessarily difficult and suffocatingly restrictive.

It's 10x easier and less energy to focus on developing discipline to identify when it is OK and cut back. Our bodies are very much built for handling fluctuation, much bigger than our perception could do with portion assessment.

I think most of my success comes from knowing where to focus my effort.

I don't know what restaurants you've been going to, but many many restaurants do indeed serve very large portions.

I'm thinking of the size of steaks served, serving sizes of pasta... things like that. They are huge.

For you to not think they're overly large? You must be a very, very tall man with a large frame whose normal portions are on the large side.

A palm sized piece of meat is something I don't recall seeing in any restaurant I've been in for a very, very long time. Don't even get me started on the size of a baked potato that comes with the average meal.

There are a few restaurants that give you options to order a very large steak but they also have options for very small steaks. A few months ago I went to a fine diner and ordered the largest 32 oz steak. I had to bring half home for next day, but it hardly did any damage to my diet that week.

I eat out a lot at casual places like Chipotle, Rubio, Carl Jr, privately owned restaurants and I never see any option that a healthy adult man couldn't finish.

However, the point here is if you manage your meals well, be a little disciplined with cutbacks, it makes no different whether you eat a 1500 cal Carl Jr meal or a 900 cal BajaFresh bowl. While you and others like yourself are concerned with every calorie point, I'm focused on cutbacks with other meals. Our bodies don't care that you eat 1500 calories in one meal and then 200 calories (a small sandwich) the next meal, or however less until the excess is gone; or even so less that it goes into deficit level. That's how weight is lost.

So, the issue is not the portion assessment or tight control. The issue is whether you are disciplined with cutbacks when needed.

You're wrong about portion sizes, even in Europe they verge on the large in many places. I've recently spent a week in the States and everywhere serves much larger portion sizes than what you should be eating (if not calorie counting)

And I say this as a volume eater (I am careful to pad out meals with low calorie volume foods cos I like to eat lots)

Within a week in the US my eyes and stomach and appetite adjusted to those portion sizes being "normal" and I'm struggling now to control my appetite

It isn't a "normal" portion size in terms of calorie intake

You're right about it not mattering when you eat your calories though

When I was on vacation in Canada, I had to have them pack up the leftovers in a restaurant because i couldn't finish it. Never happened before or since and that was when I was still overweight.

Which restaurant was that? Do you remember?

Smitty's or something like that? It was a pancake breakfast thing, with canadian ham and whatnot.

Yeah, Smitty's is basically our version of the IHOP. Actually, you mean Canadian bacon btw, which is back bacon or pea meal bacon here, and a more ham like bacon. Very good stuff!

endlessfall16 wrote: »

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

endlessfall16 wrote: »

Need2Exerc1se wrote: »

bblue656 wrote: »

You will NOT be forced to count calories for the rest of your life. Once you are at your goal weight. You will just count calories for a couple months to learn what your body will need to maintain, then it should be easy

Just like any other diet some will eventually learn proper portion control without the tool and some will not. The reason most people regain is that they quit whatever they were doing when they lost weight. That's why it's so important to find a method of weight loss that is comfortable enough to be sustainable long term, or will at least give you the knowledge to proceed without it.

Since you and another mfp veteran Aaron have mentioned "proper portion" , I also feel the need to chime in that the "skill" to identify "proper portion" or accurate control is really unnecessary, if not time wasting and futile, per my experience.

Generally, for outside, unless you order a second meal -- who does that --, most restaurants don't serve obscenely big portions. So no accidentally walking into a calorie bomb that the body cannot handle. Or at home I doubt if people can't tell between a very full plate and a good size plate that is in healthy range.

My point here is the difference in portion size that we cannot tell does not significantly contribute to our weight problem. Our bodies and actions can easily manage this fluctuation.

What significantly contributes to most people's wt problem is the consistent over eating behavior. More specifically, it's their lack of discipline to cut back when they have to and they know that time. It's not their lack of portion assessment.

Anecdotally, in my counting days I (mistakenly) also thought that I needed to learn the "portion" skill. Soon I realized it was unnecessarily difficult and suffocatingly restrictive.

It's 10x easier and less energy to focus on developing discipline to identify when it is OK and cut back. Our bodies are very much built for handling fluctuation, much bigger than our perception could do with portion assessment.

I think most of my success comes from knowing where to focus my effort.

I don't know what restaurants you've been going to, but many many restaurants do indeed serve very large portions.

I'm thinking of the size of steaks served, serving sizes of pasta... things like that. They are huge.

For you to not think they're overly large? You must be a very, very tall man with a large frame whose normal portions are on the large side.

A palm sized piece of meat is something I don't recall seeing in any restaurant I've been in for a very, very long time. Don't even get me started on the size of a baked potato that comes with the average meal.

There are a few restaurants that give you options to order a very large steak but they also have options for very small steaks. A few months ago I went to a fine diner and ordered the largest 32 oz steak. I had to bring half home for next day, but it hardly did any damage to my diet that week.

I eat out a lot at casual places like Chipotle, Rubio, Carl Jr, privately owned restaurants and I never see any option that a healthy adult man couldn't finish.

However, the point here is if you manage your meals well, be a little disciplined with cutbacks, it makes no different whether you eat a 1500 cal Carl Jr meal or a 900 cal BajaFresh bowl. While you and others like yourself are concerned with every calorie point, I'm focused on cutbacks with other meals. Our bodies don't care that you eat 1500 calories in one meal and then 200 calories (a small sandwich) the next meal, or however less until the excess is gone; or even so less that it goes into deficit level. That's how weight is lost.

So, the issue is not the portion assessment or tight control. The issue is whether you are disciplined with cutbacks when needed.

If you're having restaurant leftovers boxed up and further compensating for calories with cutbacks on other meals...you're pretty much practicing portion control...so I guess I'm confused...that's pretty much what everyone does.

I'll admit I haven't cracked maintenance yet. I tend to get very myopically focused on some aspect of my life I want to improve.

Focus on my relationships, work and health suffer. Focus on health, work and relationships suffer. Focus on work, health and relationships suffer. I excel in whatever I focus on but I haven't figured out how to split my attention.

When I get around to noticing I'm overweight or not where I want to be health wise and get the gumption to focus on that I have zero difficulty losing weight or building strength. Its really not that hard. But I focus on it. When I reach my goal I tend to go focus on something else and two years later I'm overweight again.

So yeah, either I have to find a way to drill habits into myself so deep that I don't have to pay any attention and I'll still maintain or be healthy OR I have to count calories forever. I'll let you know if I figure out how to do the first option.

If your curious this was my "success" story a little over two years ago where I lost a little over a pound a week for 6 months and built a considerable amount of strength.

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1415525/180-days-28-pounds-down#latest

July of this year dawned on me I had let myself go and was back up to 180 pounds, so the cycle starts anew.

johunt615 wrote: »

I am a self described queen/pro of dieting. I can loose weight like no ones business.

I suck at maintaining. So although I'm not using a food scale YET and I'm hoping to be able to inuitivly eat on maintenance...

REALITY is that a lot of long term maintainers are saying otherwise. I'm tending to listen to them even though I don't want to weigh/log/measure/ forever but it will be done if that's how I never have to lose weight again!! We will see next summer when I approach goal weight.

I don't log and haven't in 3.5 years of maintenance...but that doesn't mean I'm not aware or not paying attention. I do weigh/measure some things, but not everything...like yeah, I'm going to measure my dry serving of oats, mostly so I know I have the ratio of oats to water correct...and as weighing goes, I pretty much only weigh things that are very calorie dense and/or hard to estimate...after 4+ years, I still can't estimate spaghetti for example...

For most things I'm pretty good at being able to put in on my plate and say, "OK...that looks about right." Also, I lost the notion years ago that I need exactly XXXX calories...TDEE (maintenance) is really a range and the human body is more than capable of working within that range to maintain...homeostasis is what the human body strives for.

In most cases, when people gain the weight back, it isn't so much that they stopped weighing or measuring or whatever...it's that they revert back to old eating habits...they stop or substantially reduce the amount of exercise they're doing, and they stop paying attention. You don't have to log to be aware and pay attention...but most people treat "goal weight" as the finish line...

When I speak of maintenance, I generally speak of it in terms of maintaining my health and wellness and fitness, not so much maintaining some number on the scale...If I'm doing the things I need to be doing to maintain my health, wellness, and fitness (eating well for the most part and exercising regularly), the rest tends to take care of itself. Doing the things the lean, healthy, and fit people do generally results in being lean, healthy, and fit.