Lack of carbs?? Distance runners

rickydeuce
rickydeuce Posts: 80
edited September 29 in Food and Nutrition
I have noticed on occasion that I have an slight ammonia type smell after long runs. I have done a little research but not exactly sure if what I found is legit. Can a lack of carbs create such an "odor"? Any ideas??? Thanks.
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Replies

  • bunchesonothing
    bunchesonothing Posts: 1,015 Member
    Yes, it can.
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    'cuz you are eating up your muscle! You need to make adjustments to your nutrition(Carbs). Eating up your muscle is not good. You may also want to take up strength training to add back muscle you lose running.
  • 33runnergirl
    33runnergirl Posts: 80 Member
    I believe it is called ketosis. When your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. Other symptoms include metallic taste in the mouth, bad breath, feeling thirsty and headache.
  • rickydeuce
    rickydeuce Posts: 80
    I do get that it's actually the burning of amino acids vs. the carbohydrates. Since I have only noticed this on longer runs though, do I really want to change my ratios on a daily basis, or just carb load the day before a long run? And if I'm hitting this at 2 hours, can I actually carb load enough for five hours? Should I double my Gu intake at the designated intervals, take two instead of one? Etc..
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    More carbs during is only thing I know of to help. The Gu are only 100 calories, correct? If you can gauge how long it takes at your pace to burn 100 calories, you should be able to stay ahead of the game. I'm not so sure I'd do two at once, That's 50g of mostly dextrose. Maybe more frequently though. For most that properly fuel right after endurance and load the best they can before, the average is arout 90 minute before it's time to start refueling.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123
    Since I have only noticed this on longer runs though, do I really want to change my ratios on a daily basis, or just carb load the day before a long run?

    Start carb loading two days before.
    And if I'm hitting this at 2 hours, can I actually carb load enough for five hours?

    Nope.
    Should I double my Gu intake at the designated intervals, take two instead of one? Etc..

    I doubt it will help. How often do you refuel mid run?

    If it's just happening on long runs, and you don't care, don't worry about it. One of the main reasons for running long is to train your body to more efficiently use fatty acids as its fuel source after glycogen depletion.
  • TateFTW
    TateFTW Posts: 658 Member
    I do get that it's actually the burning of amino acids vs. the carbohydrates. Since I have only noticed this on longer runs though, do I really want to change my ratios on a daily basis, or just carb load the day before a long run? And if I'm hitting this at 2 hours, can I actually carb load enough for five hours? Should I double my Gu intake at the designated intervals, take two instead of one? Etc..

    Carb loading is mostly BS. Your muscles can only store so much glycogen, and the rest will be stored as fat. If you try to take in extra carbs you'll probably feel bloated and stuffed, and you certainly won't have any more muscle glycogen available than you would have anyways with a good diet and the right amount of carbs. It's completely normal in a long run to "hit the wall" at some point as your body switches from glycogen to bodyfat. This is commonly reffered to as "bonking". You have to push through, then you should get a second wind once your body gets "used to" running on fat.

    Yes, you'll burn muscle tissue as well. There's a reason distance runners are skinny SOB's, and there's a reason guys like me who want some muscle don't do longer runs.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123

    Carb loading is mostly BS.

    Most likely most of the "carb load" effect is almost akin to a placebo effect. However, if you are on a carb restricted diet (as I am assuming the OP is) in the first place, it's definitely going to make a difference in an endurance event.
  • rickydeuce
    rickydeuce Posts: 80
    [/quote]I doubt it will help. How often do you refuel mid run?[/quote]

    Well I have noticed that I can go the first hour before I need to fuel (1:00:00-1:10:00, the latter is pushing it). After that, I've been going at it every 35-45 mins. That's what I've been trying anyway. I'm still in the learning process.

    I've read the glucose is for the brain functions as well. They do sell them in the 100 calorie packs for a reason I suspect. So should I take some carbs to munch on as well as the Gu?

    Thanks to all so far for the great feedback. I can't afford a coach and dietician!!!!
  • bunchesonothing
    bunchesonothing Posts: 1,015 Member
    I do get that it's actually the burning of amino acids vs. the carbohydrates. Since I have only noticed this on longer runs though, do I really want to change my ratios on a daily basis, or just carb load the day before a long run? And if I'm hitting this at 2 hours, can I actually carb load enough for five hours? Should I double my Gu intake at the designated intervals, take two instead of one? Etc..

    Carb loading is mostly BS. Your muscles can only store so much glycogen, and the rest will be stored as fat. If you try to take in extra carbs you'll probably feel bloated and stuffed, and you certainly won't have any more muscle glycogen available than you would have anyways with a good diet and the right amount of carbs. It's completely normal in a long run to "hit the wall" at some point as your body switches from glycogen to bodyfat. This is commonly reffered to as "bonking". You have to push through, then you should get a second wind once your body gets "used to" running on fat.

    Yes, you'll burn muscle tissue as well. There's a reason distance runners are skinny SOB's, and there's a reason guys like me who want some muscle don't do longer runs.

    Yes. And it potentially has to do with the number of fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers as well.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123
    I doubt it will help. How often do you refuel mid run?

    Well I have noticed that I can go the first hour before I need to fuel (1:00:00-1:10:00, the latter is pushing it). After that, I've been going at it every 35-45 mins. That's what I've been trying anyway. I'm still in the learning process.

    I've read the glucose is for the brain functions as well. They do sell them in the 100 calorie packs for a reason I suspect. So should I take some carbs to munch on as well as the Gu?

    Thanks to all so far for the great feedback. I can't afford a coach and dietician!!!!

    Other than this ammonia smell, do you find yourself experiencing other symptoms of severe glycogen depletion past about the two hour mark? If not, your refueling schedule is most likely fine.
  • LilRedRooster
    LilRedRooster Posts: 1,421 Member
    I used to get something like that when I went for long runs on fewer cals. What I do now is take a rest day or two and load up on extra calories the day before. I generally end up going over my calories by quite a bit for that day, actually, but I found that I can't make it through my runs without taking a rest day and getting extra calories in. I think it has more to do with allowing the muscles to recharge and build up more efficiently than extra energy storage, because I still end up hungry as hell, but my muscles are in better shape afterwards.
  • nuttyfamily
    nuttyfamily Posts: 3,394 Member
    I have noticed on occasion that I have an slight ammonia type smell after long runs. I have done a little research but not exactly sure if what I found is legit. Can a lack of carbs create such an "odor"? Any ideas??? Thanks.

    I have had that happen on a few of my longer runs which I just incorporated recently. I didn' t realize it was an indication of anything. I'll have to research this one more thoroughly.
  • bunchesonothing
    bunchesonothing Posts: 1,015 Member
    They tell you that you normally don't "bonk" until about mile 18-20. There are only 6-8 miles left during a marathon after that. Most training programs only get you to 20. Most marathoners are not chronically getting muscle eaten up(unless they are not eating a diet with regular carbs in it), but quite a few are on the skinny end of things. Then there are gu's and other things to help you not bonk. I haven't bonked once during a marathon or ultra. It can be avoided by most marathoners.

    However, I agree that with the proper diet, carbo loading is not terribly necessary.
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    They should just drop the "carb loading" terminology and stick to glycogen recovery post event/training. Does a marathon runner even reach fast twitch fiber stores of glycogen? Or do they have such a predominance of slow twitch that it really isn't relevant.
  • bunchesonothing
    bunchesonothing Posts: 1,015 Member
    They should just drop the "carb loading" terminology and stick to glycogen recovery post event/training. Does a marathon runner even reach fast twitch fiber stores of glycogen? Or do they have such a predominance of slow twitch that it really isn't relevant.

    I don't know. That's an interesting question. I would imagine that it had to do with the fitness of the runner and what type of training they do.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123
    Here is an extensive paper on estimating your glycogen storage, and how much of that your body will use, specifically in a marathon.

    http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    I ask because a certain intensity is required to activate fast twitch. The glycogen stores in muscle can't be released into the blood stream, just used for local energy needs of the muscle. So, it would make sense to me that they would need to account for that in terms of available glycogen, and glycogen that will need replaced. Take me that is a sprinter with lot's of fast twitch. I'm going to have to refuel a lot sooner than someone with a lot of slow twitch on a distance run.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123
    I ask because a certain intensity is required to activate fast twitch. The glycogen stores in muscle can't be released into the blood stream, just used for local energy needs of the muscle. So, it would make sense to me that they would need to account for that in terms of available glycogen, and glycogen that will need replaced. Take me that is a sprinter with lot's of fast twitch. I'm going to have to refuel a lot sooner than someone with a lot of slow twitch on a distance run.

    Yes, other than liver glycogen, a runner would be limited to (mainly) glycogen from slow twitch leg muscles.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123
    But I dont know enough about the subject to know at what intensity you would start recruiting fast twitch fibers.
  • TK421NotAtPost
    TK421NotAtPost Posts: 512 Member
    myname, don't you have it the other way around?

    What about cycling? It would seem that cyclists and the way they have to endure 2 hours of lactic acid burning through their thighs at each stage of the race burn through a lot of glycogen.

    Honestly though, is the difference in percentage of glycogen vs. fatty acids burned when recruiting slow-twitch fibers vs. fast-twitch fibers THAT great? I think unless you are doing some pretty low-intensity work, like walking, I would bet that someone who runs a marathon is burning through a pretty good amount of glycogen. Probably a hell of a lot more than someone who does sprint intervals for 30 mintues or even an hour.....
  • bunchesonothing
    bunchesonothing Posts: 1,015 Member
    I ask because a certain intensity is required to activate fast twitch. The glycogen stores in muscle can't be released into the blood stream, just used for local energy needs of the muscle. So, it would make sense to me that they would need to account for that in terms of available glycogen, and glycogen that will need replaced. Take me that is a sprinter with lot's of fast twitch. I'm going to have to refuel a lot sooner than someone with a lot of slow twitch on a distance run.

    Yes, other than liver glycogen, a runner would be limited to (mainly) glycogen from slow twitch leg muscles.

    I'm not sure you have fast or slow twitch "muscles," just fast and slow twitch fibers.
  • mynameisnutz
    mynameisnutz Posts: 123
    I ask because a certain intensity is required to activate fast twitch. The glycogen stores in muscle can't be released into the blood stream, just used for local energy needs of the muscle. So, it would make sense to me that they would need to account for that in terms of available glycogen, and glycogen that will need replaced. Take me that is a sprinter with lot's of fast twitch. I'm going to have to refuel a lot sooner than someone with a lot of slow twitch on a distance run.

    Yes, other than liver glycogen, a runner would be limited to (mainly) glycogen from slow twitch leg muscles.


    I'm not sure you have fast or slow twitch "muscles," just fast and slow twitch fibers.

    Sorry, I should have said slow twitch leg muscle fibers.
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    Probably a hell of a lot more than someone who does sprint intervals for 30 mintues or even an hour.....

    How long would it take a distance runner to burn 300-400 calories? If I did sprint intervals for 30 minutes I would burn around 300-400.
  • TK421NotAtPost
    TK421NotAtPost Posts: 512 Member
    Oh hindsight, that was a poor comparison... Weighted for time, sprint intervals will deplete glycogen and burn through more overall calories than medium intensity endurance training.

    I think the only point I was trying to make is that "IF" carb loading is even required (for example, someone who is on a cyclical ketogenic diet), I think it is more crucial for endurance athletes than someone who regularly does high intensity intervals for 30 minutes.
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    Oh hindsight, that was a poor comparison... Weighted for time, sprint intervals will deplete glycogen and burn through more overall calories than medium intensity endurance training.

    I think the only point I was trying to make is that "IF" carb loading is even required (for example, someone who is on a cyclical ketogenic diet), I think it is more crucial for endurance athletes than someone who regularly does high intensity intervals for 30 minutes.

    Yes I could get through a few days of a 300-400 burn before really needing to put some glycogen back in my muscle via recovery nutrition though.
  • sweetNsassy2584
    sweetNsassy2584 Posts: 515 Member
    So I run 30-45 minutes on a treadmill 4-5 times a week. I also have this ammonia like smell when I am done. I am only running about 3 miles not a marathon. I've been wondering the same thing.. If someone could explain this to me more in detail I would appreciate it ;)
  • 33runnergirl
    33runnergirl Posts: 80 Member
    I'm reading The Little Red Book Of Running by Douglas Scott. He believes in depleting glycogen stores so that your body adapts by becoming better at storing glycogen. He says that using gels "limit the long runs ability to make you a more efficient runner". He also says a well trained runner should be able to get through 18-20 miles with no decline in performance without having to take in lots of calories.

    I am not well trained so I will be downing at least a gel or two on my long runs :-)
  • taem
    taem Posts: 495 Member
    I am a heavy carb eater and I walk about 8 to 9 miles a day. I lost 29 pounds in a month and a half (thereabouts). I am a type 2 diabetic so please don't use the insulin excuse against me.

    Your body uses carbs first, after 20 minutes, it burns carbs and fat or carbs or muscle (depends what you have more of on your body) but it is not intensity so much as the length of cardio. So marathon runners burn carbs in the beginning but at the end of the marathon, they are burning nothing but fat (if they have any).

    This is my opinion, and I lost weight and I walk a lot everyday. So you can show me urls to prove your point but I am living proof. My diary is also open to the public.

    So I don't carb load before cardio but if you are on a low carb diet, you might want to eat some before your cardio so you can last longer and not get so hungry faster.
  • pyro13g
    pyro13g Posts: 1,127 Member
    Your body doesn't burn carbs first. It is always using some fat.
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