stronglifts and running
curlsintherack
Posts: 465 Member
I'm about 3 months into stronglifts now and I'm squating well over 200lbs 3 days per week and I'm running on 3 other days per week and taking a rest day on Sunday. I'm running 2 5 mile runs and a longer run between 8-10 miles I'm starting to feel like my legs aren't recovering correctly and I'm just unable to keep up the paces I could when I was squating less.
How did you modify the stronglifts or starting strength program to work with your running?
How did you modify the stronglifts or starting strength program to work with your running?
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You have to make up your mind which to concentrate on now. Running or squatting heavy, either will screw up the other as you have learned. I backed off the squats, forced a deload, for a time while I was concentrating on prepping for a triathlon. I'm not on a 5x5 right now but I'll be going back to it at some point.1
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shagerty777 wrote: »You have to make up your mind which to concentrate on now. Running or squatting heavy, either will screw up the other as you have learned. I backed off the squats, forced a deload, for a time while I was concentrating on prepping for a triathlon. I'm not on a 5x5 right now but I'll be going back to it at some point.
This.
Either knock off a day of running or a day of lifting - or at the least don't have your long run next to leg day.0 -
i had the same experience when i was doing sl and then bike commuting 5 days a week. could still do the ride but i just didn't have the same pep in my legs.
i think it's glycogen/whatever with me. it takes as long as it takes for your body to manufacture more glycogen and then shuttle it into your legs. so i agree that it's like having a budget and you mostly need to decide where you're going to spend what you have.1 -
I coach all kinds of people including fighters, LEOs & DoD which means I box, grapple, and train FMA etc. 3 or 4 days a week.
I had trouble recovering after a while on Starting Strength.
It surely doesn't help that I am pushing 50 in my late 40's.
I tried messing with fixes to no avail, even though it meant "YNDTP"...
Finally I moved to Wendler's 5/3/1 and haven't looked back.
Use Boring But Big or First Set Last (at 5x5 or 1x12,1x10 & 1x8).
Slower, but steady and much more enjoyable to me. Weight training is "fun" again.
Don't be fooled by the "low" starting weights and try to mess with the numbers; trust Wendler.
Recovery should be easy also. 5/3/1 is designed to compliment your life not control it.
PM me if you need some tips.
FWIW, after a while on SL5x5 it essentially turns into SS, at 3x5.1 -
@cqbkaju dude you are not pushing 50 really? From your pic I thought for sure early 30's!!
I am looking to start SL and I run, but I certainly won't be handling the same weight as you. However, it seems to me that you are doing a bit too much!0 -
Thanks?Joanna2012B wrote: »@cqbkaju dude you are not pushing 50 really? From your pic I thought for sure early 30's!!
I'll soon be 46, so maybe "pushing 50" is a bit hyperbolic.
"Too much" is a relative term...
I frequently wonder if I am not doing enough but my wife says I am an "overachiever".
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Thanks?Joanna2012B wrote: »@cqbkaju dude you are not pushing 50 really? From your pic I thought for sure early 30's!!
I'll soon be 46, so maybe "pushing 50" is a bit hyperbolic.
"Too much" is a relative term...
I frequently wonder if I am not doing enough but my wife says I am an "overachiever".
Even 46...I still see you as a 30something!!
Nothing wrong with being an "overachiever"!!! Some may say I am as well!!!1 -
I frequently recommend SL5x5 for women. "Thinner Leaner Stronger" is also good.Joanna2012B wrote: »I am looking to start SL and I run, but I certainly won't be handling the same weight as you. However, it seems to me that you are doing a bit too much!
My suggestion is to start light and focus on good form and safety instead of rushing to move heavy (for you) weights.
Lifting is a marathon, not a sprint.
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As a cyclist in a hilly place, I don't do squats or leg presses or anything like that. It would be redundant.1
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One of my top guys frequently rides in the MS 150.NorthCascades wrote: »As a cyclist in a hilly place, I don't do squats or leg presses or anything like that. It would be redundant.
For what it is worth, he seems to disagree with you.
Squats are mostly about strength in the legs, abs and back,
As I understand him, biking is mostly about endurance in the legs.
There is some carryover of strength and endurance but it is not a direct correlation.
You have to explain why I have to drive 150 miles, not to mention ride a bike that far, so I do not know one way or another.
Leg variance of the squat aside, I hope you are at least deadlifting or something to keep your back strong.
A strong and supple lower back is never "redundant".
The number of guys my age (and younger) who claim to have "back problems" and never took time to strengthen their backs is just...something.2 -
I may have to give 5/3/1 a try because I can feel that I have more weight in me for the squat but I don't want go give up the cardio that I've worked so hard to build either.
thanks everyone for the advice.
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As a marathon runner, I have also found that trying to include a heavy lifting program in with my training is just too much. I usually train in 16 week cycles, so I am training (i.e. running high mileage) for 32 weeks of the year. During this time, I limit my strength training to body weight exercises and yoga/pilates. During the other 20 weeks of the year, I add in a weight based strength training program and decrease my overall running mileage. As another poster said, you have to focus on one or the other. If you choose to do them both at the same time, you will likely need to decrease the intensity.0
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I have almost the exact same routine. When I started training for a half this spring I had to drop SL down to 3x5 two days per week. I'm back up to 3 days now, but kept SL at 3x5 and haven't had any issues with recovery running 20ish miles per week even though I have my squats over body weight and DL almost 1.5 bw.
But I NEED the rest day. Especially after a long run. I got stupid a couple months ago and tried to do SL after long run day because the gym was going to be closed for a holiday. Pulled a hip flexor and had to deload and work back up. Never again!1 -
I just asked my guy who rides in the MS150 to make sure I was not mis-quoting him somehow:As I understand him, biking is mostly about endurance in the legs.
There is some carryover of strength and endurance but it is not a direct correlation.
"He is mistaken. I'm not saying riding hilly terrain isn't good for you, but there is no commutative property between squats and riding hilly terrain."1 -
lsutton484 wrote: »I'm about 3 months into stronglifts now and I'm squating well over 200lbs 3 days per week and I'm running on 3 other days per week and taking a rest day on Sunday. I'm running 2 5 mile runs and a longer run between 8-10 miles I'm starting to feel like my legs aren't recovering correctly and I'm just unable to keep up the paces I could when I was squating less.
How did you modify the stronglifts or starting strength program to work with your running?
You have two competing goals here and you have to pick a direction...do you want to focus on power lifting or endurance training/running...When I ran Starting Strength (similar program) I focused on that and then just did light cardio work...when I really got into cycling and really wanted to start training for events and knocking out miles and doing time trials I had to adopt a different lifting routine...no way I can squat 3x per week and deadlift and get in miles and recover.
I run a 2x per week program lifting and I tend to work in the 8-12 rep range depending on the movement. I only squat once per week and deadlift once per week...the only heavy work I really do is my Oly work which consists of five sets of doubles on cleans and same for snatches...I do tend to run a heavy cycle in the winter because there's not really anything going on in the cycling world...I still ride, but they tend to be more recovery type of rides...so you might want to look at doing things seasonally and having a running season and then a season where you really focus on strength with a little jogging a few days per week or something to help you maintain some assemblance of your base.0 -
lsutton484 wrote: »I'm about 3 months into stronglifts now and I'm squating well over 200lbs 3 days per week and I'm running on 3 other days per week and taking a rest day on Sunday. I'm running 2 5 mile runs and a longer run between 8-10 miles I'm starting to feel like my legs aren't recovering correctly and I'm just unable to keep up the paces I could when I was squating less.
How did you modify the stronglifts or starting strength program to work with your running?
Ditch Stronglifts, and start Wendler's 531.0 -
One of my top guys frequently rides in the MS 150.NorthCascades wrote: »As a cyclist in a hilly place, I don't do squats or leg presses or anything like that. It would be redundant.
For what it is worth, he seems to disagree with you.
Squats are mostly about strength in the legs, abs and back,
As I understand him, biking is mostly about endurance in the legs.
There is some carryover of strength and endurance but it is not a direct correlation.
You have to explain why I have to drive 150 miles, not to mention ride a bike that far, so I do not know one way or another.
Leg variance of the squat aside, I hope you are at least deadlifting or something to keep your back strong.
A strong and supple lower back is never "redundant".
The number of guys my age (and younger) who claim to have "back problems" and never took time to strengthen their backs is just...something.
I appreciate the thoughts.
And for sure I recognize that I'm not getting 100 % of the benefits that squats and leg lifts and everything would bestow upon me, by riding a bike. On the other hand, my personal experience agrees with most peoples', you can't do both well. Cycling is more important to me, so if something has to give it's an easy choice.
I just asked my guy who rides in the MS150 to make sure I was not mis-quoting him somehow:As I understand him, biking is mostly about endurance in the legs.
There is some carryover of strength and endurance but it is not a direct correlation.
"He is mistaken. I'm not saying riding hilly terrain isn't good for you, but there is no commutative property between squats and riding hilly terrain."
I don't think they're cumulative, I think they're competing (for the same resource: training stress).1 -
lsutton484 wrote: »I'm about 3 months into stronglifts now and I'm squating well over 200lbs 3 days per week and I'm running on 3 other days per week and taking a rest day on Sunday. I'm running 2 5 mile runs and a longer run between 8-10 miles I'm starting to feel like my legs aren't recovering correctly and I'm just unable to keep up the paces I could when I was squating less.
How did you modify the stronglifts or starting strength program to work with your running?
During SL, Wendler's, and now my own programming I run my short runs(5mi) directly after leg work and then take the next day to rest my legs completely. It works for me at age 47 and lift 1100+ for the big three.2 -
Sounds like your are not allowing enough time for recovery. I follow a 3/2 workout. Meaning one week is 3 days cardio / 2 days strength. Week two flip it to 3 strength / 2 cardio. Also running distances of 5 and 5+ tears down the muscles, toss in squats.... Over working the legs. My opinion that is. Also what's your diet? May be low on protein to repair those muscles. Plus water to flush out the junk. Again my opinion. Best of luck0
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When you want to get strong and run longer distances, you have to be smart with your programming. It's not an impossible task people do it all the time. Also realize as your body adapts, you are going to have periods where performance dips, that's normal. One of the things you can do right away is run your runs easier. Trim you lifting to remove redundancy. Combine training days.0
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I was in a deficit but seem to be eating a lot these days just trying to maintain the current weight which is still slowly slipping down the scale about .5lbs per week now. I'm going to have to become more dedicated to tracking calories and macros.0
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@NorthCascades @cqbkajuNorthCascades wrote: »
One of my top guys frequently rides in the MS 150.NorthCascades wrote: »As a cyclist in a hilly place, I don't do squats or leg presses or anything like that. It would be redundant.
For what it is worth, he seems to disagree with you.
Squats are mostly about strength in the legs, abs and back,
As I understand him, biking is mostly about endurance in the legs.
There is some carryover of strength and endurance but it is not a direct correlation.
You have to explain why I have to drive 150 miles, not to mention ride a bike that far, so I do not know one way or another.
Leg variance of the squat aside, I hope you are at least deadlifting or something to keep your back strong.
A strong and supple lower back is never "redundant".
The number of guys my age (and younger) who claim to have "back problems" and never took time to strengthen their backs is just...something.
I appreciate the thoughts. And for sure I recognize that I'm not getting 100 % of the benefits that squats and leg lifts and everything would bestow upon me, by riding a bike. On the other hand, my personal experience agrees with most peoples', you can't do both well. Cycling is more important to me, so if something has to give it's an easy choice.
I just asked my guy who rides in the MS150 to make sure I was not mis-quoting him somehow:As I understand him, biking is mostly about endurance in the legs.
There is some carryover of strength and endurance but it is not a direct correlation.
"He is mistaken. I'm not saying riding hilly terrain isn't good for you, but there is no commutative property between squats and riding hilly terrain."
I don't think they're cumulative, I think they're competing (for the same resource: training stress).
I'm somewhere in the middle ground on this - I'm a cyclist who does his leg strength work in the gym in the early part of the week so they are more rested for the following weekend's long / hilly rides. At the end of the week I'm often only doing upper body and core in the gym.
Definitely feel the performance benefit of strength training legs for cycling - but agree with that there is limited training and recovery time and you have to prioritise/compromise.
Often my Monday strength training is compromised by a Sunday long or hard ride. In summer cycling is #1 priority and in winter cardio and strength are about equal.
OP - try and be smart with your programming, that includes volume and intensity not just scheduling. Not convinced SL has that flexibility to cope with your conflicting goals.1 -
I frequently recommend SL5x5 for women. "Thinner Leaner Stronger" is also good.Joanna2012B wrote: »I am looking to start SL and I run, but I certainly won't be handling the same weight as you. However, it seems to me that you are doing a bit too much!
My suggestion is to start light and focus on good form and safety instead of rushing to move heavy (for you) weights.
Lifting is a marathon, not a sprint.
@Joanna2012B - I just started SL5x5 and got great info from cqbkaju - he also recommended Thinner Leaner Stronger to me so I'm doing SL5x5 while I'm currently reading Thinner Leaner Stronger. Love it!! I actually look forward to working out on those three days. (This is my first time with a heavy lifting program and I'm 45 years old - so far so good). Good luck!0 -
I would highly recommend the book " The Hybrid Athlete" by Alex Viada.1
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It is interesting that you say the squats take it out of your legs and impact your runs the next day. I have always found that deadlifts kill my next run more than squats do.0
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trigden1991 wrote: »I would highly recommend the book " The Hybrid Athlete" by Alex Viada.
I'll give it a look, thanks!
OP I was finding the same thing, squatting 3 x weekly was ok when my runs were relatively short (8 to 10 km) but a the long runs got longer in the latter stages of my training plan my legs were dead and I rolled i back to 1 x weekly. My coach has recommended going lighter weights / higher reps & goblet/sumo squats as I have tight hips.
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trigden1991 wrote: »I would highly recommend the book " The Hybrid Athlete" by Alex Viada.
Excellent book. Recommend it too0 -
@ckbkaju, @sijomial, @cwolfman13
I ran across this yesterday:
4. Choose movements to load key areas of the body.
The results of these studies support that bone density is site-specific. This means that all of the bicep curls and chest presses in the world will not help you increase bone density in your hips and pelvis as much as doing lower body movements. Lumbar spine stress is achieved by loading weight on the back, such as doing deadlifts or squats with weight, and by performing sit-up type movements and back extensions. Stress on the femur occurs when legs are put under heavy load or impact forces. So if you want strong bones in your hips, legs and spine, make sure you are including movements that target those areas. Or conversely, if you have a particular area you are concerned about, make sure and give that area some more love with some additional site-specific exercises.
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In addition to suspension training movements, consider adding movements where the spine is placed under load, such as squats with a bag, bar or employ the use of a standing machine. Loading up a leg press might be beneficial for the hips, but will not put the necessary compression forces on the spine which are lacking the most in cycling and are the most important for cyclists to include.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/why-cycling-is-bad-for-bone-density-and-how-you-can-improve-it1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »@ckbkaju, @sijomial, @cwolfman13
I ran across this yesterday:
4. Choose movements to load key areas of the body.
The results of these studies support that bone density is site-specific. This means that all of the bicep curls and chest presses in the world will not help you increase bone density in your hips and pelvis as much as doing lower body movements. Lumbar spine stress is achieved by loading weight on the back, such as doing deadlifts or squats with weight, and by performing sit-up type movements and back extensions. Stress on the femur occurs when legs are put under heavy load or impact forces. So if you want strong bones in your hips, legs and spine, make sure you are including movements that target those areas. Or conversely, if you have a particular area you are concerned about, make sure and give that area some more love with some additional site-specific exercises.
...
In addition to suspension training movements, consider adding movements where the spine is placed under load, such as squats with a bag, bar or employ the use of a standing machine. Loading up a leg press might be beneficial for the hips, but will not put the necessary compression forces on the spine which are lacking the most in cycling and are the most important for cyclists to include.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/why-cycling-is-bad-for-bone-density-and-how-you-can-improve-it
@NorthCascades
Thanks for that. Interesting.
Unfortunately I have to avoid very large vertical loads as I have three badly damaged lumbar discs (repeated prolapses have massively reduced the space between the vertebrae). Compression = nerve impingement and loss of function as well as pain. Been under "final warning" of fusion surgery for over 10 years but managed to stave that off.
So as an example I will do alternate hand dumbbell shoulder presses to halve the load on my spine but still give a good workout.
I do a high volume of core strengthening exercises to compensate for my spinal issues.
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I am a recreational runner doing about the same mileage schedule as you, and I also found my paces suffering as my weights increased on a three-day full body routine. I've switched to PHUL, which is four days on an upper/lower split (so two days of lower body work). This means I can still run three days per week and have one full rest day if I want, depending on how I schedule it.
PHUL as written has heavy squats and heavy DL's on the same day, so I moved the heavy back squats to split those two days. I still squat twice a week, but on deadlift day I am doing higher reps/lower weight of front squats or goblet squats. Here's what I'm usually doing any given week:
Monday: Upper body
Tuesday: Lower body (heavy DL)
Wednesday: 5-6 mile run
Thursday: Upper body + 4-5 mile run
Friday: Lower body (heavy squats)
Saturday: rest or very short recovery run
Sunday: Long run of 8-10 miles
Hope this helps!
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