What if I lift hard but don't want hard?

viren19890
viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
edited November 13 in Fitness and Exercise
Hello,

I've lost 26kg in last 9 months and now I'd like to put on some muscle. If weight loss is strictly CICO what is muscle gain then?

I've maintained for two months and even if I eat out and I did on my vacation for 45 days, I didn't gain even a single pound not as much as water weight lol.

So I haven't logged for two-three months and I'm doing OK.

I'd like some muscle now, I'm at 79 kg and would like to be at around 85-86 without any add of waist size (cause) I recently changed my whole wardrobe.

If I lift hard 5 days a week and move focus from 5/3/1 to a bodybuilder routine, is it possible to gain muscle? Or I'd have to increase calories a lot and start logging again?

Thanks

Replies

  • JustMissTracy
    JustMissTracy Posts: 6,338 Member
    You probably need a larger surplus. Eat up!
  • ccrdragon
    ccrdragon Posts: 3,374 Member
    To add muscle, you need extra calories - try adding 100-150 calories a day (carbs/protein) and see where you are in 4 weeks. If you like the results, then stick with it, if not, add another 100 calories and check back again.
  • CarlKRobbo
    CarlKRobbo Posts: 390 Member
    edited November 2016
    Simple - If you want to gain Muscle, you'll need to add extra calories!

    If you don't want to gain too much fat on it, take it slow, and add as above +150-250 a day.

    The norm would be closer to +500 a day, so halving that would slow down the gain potential, as a result, I'd say check back in 6-8 weeks. Then adjust. If required.

    Edit - Just to add, increase of calories is the Key here, you'd gain muscle on either program with a calorie surplus, you'd maintain mass if eating maintanance, and you'd lose weight if you were in a defecit.

    That being said, Program still needs to be decent - Either a (Decent) Bodybuilding routine, or, if you've already done 5/3/1, what about 5/3/1 BBB (Boring but Big)? - Simple to adapt to based on what you've done.
  • sammyliftsandeats
    sammyliftsandeats Posts: 2,421 Member
    Eat in a surplus. Your body needs the extra energy if you're gonna put on muscle.

    Your weight gain will be a mix of fat and muscle, but if you eat at a small surplus you may be able to lessen the fat gain. BUT, the potential for muscle building is smaller too. Basically, the bigger the surplus, the bigger your potential for muscle gain is, but fat gain as well.

    As long as your routine is progressive overload, I think it will be OK.

    Also, I don't think you can spot gain, the same way you cannot spot reduce. Depending on your body, you may gain on your waist. But then you can cut again after you are done bulking.
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    Adding 10% of your TDEE will give you more energy, strength, and muscle while keeping your waist size from growing fast.
  • trigden1991
    trigden1991 Posts: 4,658 Member
    Caloric surplus + adequate protein + progressive lifting = Weight gain (Water, Muscle & Fat)
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    I will add this as I think there needs to be some context added as there are things that might be misconstrued. Lyle McDonald has a great article on his website talking about genetic muscular potential. He references several models including his, Alan Aragon's, and one or two others that assume*, depending on the level of training, the rate of muscle gain for males (half that for females).
    *Note the word assume as there has to be proper training and nutrition, etc...
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/

    Also, his article on on general philosophies of muscle gain
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html/

    Additional musings would be just from some information mentioned in some podcasts I remember (don't know links, but you can search for podcasts involving Dr. Mike Israetel & Armi Legge or Danny Lennon) where Dr. Mike discusses the rates of optimal weight gain and the proportion of muscle gained compared to fat. Unfortunately, the proportion of fat gained will always (unless you have medical assistance or some of the greatest genetics on the planet) outpace the proportion of muscle gained. Some figures of 1:2 (1lbs of muscle gained for every 2lbs of fat gained) for beginners, 1:3 for intermediates, and 1:4 for advanced lifters were mentioned for averages (you might do a little better or you might do a little worse...genetics has a lot to do with it). However, once you get past that bodyfat % sweetspot (see mentioning about this on Lyle's site as well) you become more insulin resistant, thus the proportion toward fat will increase even greater. Good news is, while muscle is slower and fat is faster to gain in a surplus, the inverse is true... In a deficit, fat is faster to go compared to the rate of muscle loss (and depending on training experience and nutrition*, the net result of muscle might be that you maintained or might have encountered a small increase), thus the general recommendation of bulk and cut cycles (there is some maintenance time in there too, so read the link).

    My takeaway from this is, you can add weight too slow, just as you can add weight too fast. If you follow the general philosophies Lyle outlines, you are doing just about the best you can do in my opinion.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Thanks all for posting.

    What would happen - if I keep lifting hard but eat let's say less than maintenance ?

    Would I get a bit more leaner?
    Any side effects? harmful?

    I won't be doing it intentionally but even now it seems I'm not even close to my maintenance-at least 200-250 calories less than maintenance. Although overall during the week, they go up here n there maybe that's why weight isn't going down or up.
  • sllm1
    sllm1 Posts: 2,130 Member
    Lifting and eating at maintenance isn't harmful. You just won't gain muscle. My experience has been that you will lean out some but it's a very slow process.
  • jdscrubs32
    jdscrubs32 Posts: 515 Member
    @viren19890 Whatever your maintenance is, increase the calories initially by 250 for a slow bulk. Give it 4 weeks. No gain. Increase again by 250 and repeat until you start gaining. If you find incredibly hard to gain like I did when I first started to bulk, reduce whatever cardio you do to 1 30 minute session a week or a a number of short cardio sessions during the week.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    "what is muscle gain then?"

    It's a response to your training, you overload your muscle and over time you become stronger and then bigger.
    Diet is permissive but it's the training that initiates the process.
    Jumping to a calorie surplus may optimise the speed of growth but the downside may well be fat gain as well as muscle gain.

    Have a serious think about your goals - weight, body composition, strength, size, physique.... then make some choices both for the short and long term.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    "what is muscle gain then?"

    It's a response to your training, you overload your muscle and over time you become stronger and then bigger.
    Diet is permissive but it's the training that initiates the process.
    Jumping to a calorie surplus may optimise the speed of growth but the downside may well be fat gain as well as muscle gain.

    Have a serious think about your goals - weight, body composition, strength, size, physique.... then make some choices both for the short and long term.

    I understand. Lol I want more muscle but I'm afraid that if I gain size on my waist I'd get scolded so much.

    I just redid my whole wardrobe since everything was miles loose on me and in process of muscle gain I could end up gaining size at waist and clothes change again lol

    I guess I can simply start with lifting bodybuilder routine and then decide after 4 weeks.

  • DancingMoosie
    DancingMoosie Posts: 8,619 Member
    You can aim for a recomp and then add calories if you find yourself leaner than expected...
  • canadianlbs
    canadianlbs Posts: 5,199 Member
    viren19890 wrote: »
    What would happen - if I keep lifting hard but eat let's say less than maintenance ?


    what happened to me was that i got hella tired. 'hard' became the weights/reps i was already doing, or only a tiny bit better than that.

    i can't speak to bodybuilding routines. there's the boring-but-big extension to the wendler programme as one possibility. i'm sort of half-doing it (would bore you to death to explain, and not really related to what you want to do). it's certainly simple, but i believe he did say it's geared for hypertrophy so if you're not going to eat for hypertrophy as well, then don't waste your time. different focus from yours, possibly. but fwiw, here's my source.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    cajuntank wrote: »
    I will add this as I think there needs to be some context added as there are things that might be misconstrued. Lyle McDonald has a great article on his website talking about genetic muscular potential. He references several models including his, Alan Aragon's, and one or two others that assume*, depending on the level of training, the rate of muscle gain for males (half that for females).
    *Note the word assume as there has to be proper training and nutrition, etc...
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/

    Also, his article on on general philosophies of muscle gain
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html/

    Additional musings would be just from some information mentioned in some podcasts I remember (don't know links, but you can search for podcasts involving Dr. Mike Israetel & Armi Legge or Danny Lennon) where Dr. Mike discusses the rates of optimal weight gain and the proportion of muscle gained compared to fat. Unfortunately, the proportion of fat gained will always (unless you have medical assistance or some of the greatest genetics on the planet) outpace the proportion of muscle gained. Some figures of 1:2 (1lbs of muscle gained for every 2lbs of fat gained) for beginners, 1:3 for intermediates, and 1:4 for advanced lifters were mentioned for averages (you might do a little better or you might do a little worse...genetics has a lot to do with it). However, once you get past that bodyfat % sweetspot (see mentioning about this on Lyle's site as well) you become more insulin resistant, thus the proportion toward fat will increase even greater. Good news is, while muscle is slower and fat is faster to gain in a surplus, the inverse is true... In a deficit, fat is faster to go compared to the rate of muscle loss (and depending on training experience and nutrition*, the net result of muscle might be that you maintained or might have encountered a small increase), thus the general recommendation of bulk and cut cycles (there is some maintenance time in there too, so read the link).

    My takeaway from this is, you can add weight too slow, just as you can add weight too fast. If you follow the general philosophies Lyle outlines, you are doing just about the best you can do in my opinion.

    Read the two articles. Basically I need to get learner a bit more. I think I am around 15-16% BF and I need to be lower than 12-13% before even bother. So I need to lose another 5 lbs or 2 kg or so before I think about gaining.

    So I'm going to keep 200-300 calories less than maintenance or however I ate and let those last few lbs go slowly.
    I'll lift heavy and include 2 boxing sessions a week. I'll incorporate 5 days hypertrophy program instead of 5/3/1 because that requires food a lot of it and then re-evaluate.
  • viren19890
    viren19890 Posts: 778 Member
    Thanks all for posting
This discussion has been closed.