Need some advice/ideas on what to do differently
Replies
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Thanks. I'll have to check this out
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angelaypolite wrote: »If you've only lost 4 pounds in almost 3 months, you're only creating a very small deficit. That could be because of inaccuracies in your tracking, or over-estimating your exercise calories, or crazy water retention (this is less likely, but I guess it would still be possible). Your task now is to figure out what is introducing the inaccuracies so you can make changes.
I have a Fitbit (Blaze) synced on MFP, would that be over-estimating my calories burned? I also am hypothyroid.
1. Very possibly-Check the typical Calorie adjustment/total exercise calories it gives you against estimates you can find online for the exercise you did.
2. If the hypothyroid isn't in check, your actual net maintenance calories may be a fair bit lower than the estimate that both MFP & Fitbit come up with based on sex/weight/height.0 -
I stopped syncing my fitbit with myfitnesspal because I felt like it was hindering my weightloss. I only eat back about half or less of my exercise calories.0
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angelaypolite wrote: »
Thanks. I'll have to check this out
You're welcome. Any of the "Beginner Lifting Programs" in that thread are suitable.
They all "work", they just have different focuses and goals.
TLS is good because it teaches you about nutrition and what sort of BS to look out for when it comes to supplements.
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ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
With regards to the open diary, it's been my experience that the long time members who offer balanced advice tend to not judge the content so much as the entries themselves. There are a lot of inaccurate database entries and this causes problems. It is usually (not always, I can think of several posters I would not lump in here) the people who are advocates of specific diet plans such as keto, paleo, vegan, etc. who are more aggressively judgemental. Having someone browse the entries for any of the obvious common errors isn't a bad idea.4 -
How are you taking your medicine?
Make sure you take it first thing in the morning with at least 8 oz of water. I don't eat or drink until an hour after I have taken it. I drink my coffee at least 2 hours after I take it and I don't take any other supplements (multivitamin etc) until afternoon usually with my pm snack between 2-3 pm.
I have also heard you can take the medicine in the evening, but I have not done that so I am not sure on how that works0 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »How are you taking your medicine?
Make sure you take it first thing in the morning with at least 8 oz of water. I don't eat or drink until an hour after I have taken it. I drink my coffee at least 2 hours after I take it and I don't take any other supplements (multivitamin etc) until afternoon usually with my pm snack between 2-3 pm.
I have also heard you can take the medicine in the evening, but I have not done that so I am not sure on how that works
I've been taking it before bedtime. I seem to remember taking it better then. I notice that my energy level is better than before I was taking it, but the weight isn't budging...
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angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »How are you taking your medicine?
Make sure you take it first thing in the morning with at least 8 oz of water. I don't eat or drink until an hour after I have taken it. I drink my coffee at least 2 hours after I take it and I don't take any other supplements (multivitamin etc) until afternoon usually with my pm snack between 2-3 pm.
I have also heard you can take the medicine in the evening, but I have not done that so I am not sure on how that works
I've been taking it before bedtime. I seem to remember taking it better then. I notice that my energy level is better than before I was taking it, but the weight isn't budging...
Have you tried a low carb diet?
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nutmegoreo wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
With regards to the open diary, it's been my experience that the long time members who offer balanced advice tend to not judge the content so much as the entries themselves. There are a lot of inaccurate database entries and this causes problems. It is usually (not always, I can think of several posters I would not lump in here) the people who are advocates of specific diet plans such as keto, paleo, vegan, etc. who are more aggressively judgemental. Having someone browse the entries for any of the obvious common errors isn't a bad idea.
As someone who frequently helps people identify potential logging issues, I don't think I have ever once judged the content of someone's diary. I offer tips on how to make logging more accurate, regardless of what one chooses to eat. I think once or twice I've offered feedback on the overall context of the diet (if someone has extremely low protein intake, for example). I don't think I am an exception -- I see lots of people offering advice on how to log better, not to log different stuff (unless someone is asking for advice on different foods to eat).
Learning how to log accurately can be *hard*, it comes to few of us naturally. I benefited from so many people when I began a couple of years ago.4 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »How are you taking your medicine?
Make sure you take it first thing in the morning with at least 8 oz of water. I don't eat or drink until an hour after I have taken it. I drink my coffee at least 2 hours after I take it and I don't take any other supplements (multivitamin etc) until afternoon usually with my pm snack between 2-3 pm.
I have also heard you can take the medicine in the evening, but I have not done that so I am not sure on how that works
I've been taking it before bedtime. I seem to remember taking it better then. I notice that my energy level is better than before I was taking it, but the weight isn't budging...
Have you tried a low carb diet?
Yeah, and I did lose 7 pounds when I tried it, but I feel like I need more carbs for the type of exercise I do. Is that the way you are eating?0 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »Do you have PCOS or any other hormonal issues that you know of?
It took a long time to get my levels right and there are certain times that i feel like they still aren't right.
With hoshimoto's it can go up and down. I'd talk with your dr about it and if they can't really help try to find an endocrinologist in your area if possible.
For sure, de stressing is top priority. Try some yoga
I have Hashimoto's. I go to the endo Dr in August.0 -
angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »How are you taking your medicine?
Make sure you take it first thing in the morning with at least 8 oz of water. I don't eat or drink until an hour after I have taken it. I drink my coffee at least 2 hours after I take it and I don't take any other supplements (multivitamin etc) until afternoon usually with my pm snack between 2-3 pm.
I have also heard you can take the medicine in the evening, but I have not done that so I am not sure on how that works
I've been taking it before bedtime. I seem to remember taking it better then. I notice that my energy level is better than before I was taking it, but the weight isn't budging...
Have you tried a low carb diet?
Yeah, and I did lose 7 pounds when I tried it, but I feel like I need more carbs for the type of exercise I do. Is that the way you are eating?
Yes, I started with more of a keto diet- after 20 pounds doing that i slowly increased my *good* carb intake. Lately I haven't been eating low carb at all.. I fell off the wagon I need to get back to it.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
With regards to the open diary, it's been my experience that the long time members who offer balanced advice tend to not judge the content so much as the entries themselves. There are a lot of inaccurate database entries and this causes problems. It is usually (not always, I can think of several posters I would not lump in here) the people who are advocates of specific diet plans such as keto, paleo, vegan, etc. who are more aggressively judgemental. Having someone browse the entries for any of the obvious common errors isn't a bad idea.
As someone who frequently helps people identify potential logging issues, I don't think I have ever once judged the content of someone's diary. I offer tips on how to make logging more accurate, regardless of what one chooses to eat. I think once or twice I've offered feedback on the overall context of the diet (if someone has extremely low protein intake, for example). I don't think I am an exception -- I see lots of people offering advice on how to log better, not to log different stuff (unless someone is asking for advice on different foods to eat).
Learning how to log accurately can be *hard*, it comes to few of us naturally. I benefited from so many people when I began a couple of years ago.
You are one of the people I had in mind while making my post. I would hate to offend you, because you are always rational, balanced, and just awesome in general. Big respect to you.2 -
"Low carb" is a valid way to control Calories In but there is nothing magical about it.angelaypolite wrote: »Yeah, and I did lose 7 pounds when I tried it, but I feel like I need more carbs for the type of exercise I do. Is that the way you are eating?
You are correct that it can be extra difficult to exercise with a given intensity when you are in ketosis or glycogen-depleted in general.
Not impossible, but extra hard.1 -
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angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »Do you have PCOS or any other hormonal issues that you know of?
It took a long time to get my levels right and there are certain times that i feel like they still aren't right.
With hoshimoto's it can go up and down. I'd talk with your dr about it and if they can't really help try to find an endocrinologist in your area if possible.
For sure, de stressing is top priority. Try some yoga
I have Hashimoto's. I go to the endo Dr in August.
Talk with your doctor and try the low carb again. Before I joined mfp I had a keto app that would track my carb intake that was pretty helpful. Maybe log in both. My keto app would warn me when I would be close to my set limit0 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »Do you have PCOS or any other hormonal issues that you know of?
It took a long time to get my levels right and there are certain times that i feel like they still aren't right.
With hoshimoto's it can go up and down. I'd talk with your dr about it and if they can't really help try to find an endocrinologist in your area if possible.
For sure, de stressing is top priority. Try some yoga
I have Hashimoto's. I go to the endo Dr in August.
Talk with your doctor and try the low carb again. Before I joined mfp I had a keto app that would track my carb intake that was pretty helpful. Maybe log in both. My keto app would warn me when I would be close to my set limit
Which keto app do you use?0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
With regards to the open diary, it's been my experience that the long time members who offer balanced advice tend to not judge the content so much as the entries themselves. There are a lot of inaccurate database entries and this causes problems. It is usually (not always, I can think of several posters I would not lump in here) the people who are advocates of specific diet plans such as keto, paleo, vegan, etc. who are more aggressively judgemental. Having someone browse the entries for any of the obvious common errors isn't a bad idea.
As someone who frequently helps people identify potential logging issues, I don't think I have ever once judged the content of someone's diary. I offer tips on how to make logging more accurate, regardless of what one chooses to eat. I think once or twice I've offered feedback on the overall context of the diet (if someone has extremely low protein intake, for example). I don't think I am an exception -- I see lots of people offering advice on how to log better, not to log different stuff (unless someone is asking for advice on different foods to eat).
Learning how to log accurately can be *hard*, it comes to few of us naturally. I benefited from so many people when I began a couple of years ago.
You are one of the people I had in mind while making my post. I would hate to offend you, because you are always rational, balanced, and just awesome in general. Big respect to you.
Thanks. 1 -
angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »Do you have PCOS or any other hormonal issues that you know of?
It took a long time to get my levels right and there are certain times that i feel like they still aren't right.
With hoshimoto's it can go up and down. I'd talk with your dr about it and if they can't really help try to find an endocrinologist in your area if possible.
For sure, de stressing is top priority. Try some yoga
I have Hashimoto's. I go to the endo Dr in August.
Talk with your doctor and try the low carb again. Before I joined mfp I had a keto app that would track my carb intake that was pretty helpful. Maybe log in both. My keto app would warn me when I would be close to my set limit
Which keto app do you use?
on ios its called stupid simple keto0 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »Do you have PCOS or any other hormonal issues that you know of?
It took a long time to get my levels right and there are certain times that i feel like they still aren't right.
With hoshimoto's it can go up and down. I'd talk with your dr about it and if they can't really help try to find an endocrinologist in your area if possible.
For sure, de stressing is top priority. Try some yoga
I have Hashimoto's. I go to the endo Dr in August.
Talk with your doctor and try the low carb again. Before I joined mfp I had a keto app that would track my carb intake that was pretty helpful. Maybe log in both. My keto app would warn me when I would be close to my set limit
Which keto app do you use?
on ios its called stupid simple keto
HAHA, Thanks!1 -
angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »Do you have PCOS or any other hormonal issues that you know of?
It took a long time to get my levels right and there are certain times that i feel like they still aren't right.
With hoshimoto's it can go up and down. I'd talk with your dr about it and if they can't really help try to find an endocrinologist in your area if possible.
For sure, de stressing is top priority. Try some yoga
I have Hashimoto's. I go to the endo Dr in August.
Talk with your doctor and try the low carb again. Before I joined mfp I had a keto app that would track my carb intake that was pretty helpful. Maybe log in both. My keto app would warn me when I would be close to my set limit
Which keto app do you use?
on ios its called stupid simple keto
HAHA, Thanks!
yw! there's a group on here called hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism..maybe join and post there with your questions they could probably offer some tips and advice from their personal experiences.0 -
angelaypolite wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »If you've only lost 4 pounds in almost 3 months, you're only creating a very small deficit. That could be because of inaccuracies in your tracking, or over-estimating your exercise calories, or crazy water retention (this is less likely, but I guess it would still be possible). Your task now is to figure out what is introducing the inaccuracies so you can make changes.
I have a Fitbit (Blaze) synced on MFP, would that be over-estimating my calories burned?
Yes, absolutely. Any tracker or wearable tech will only give you an estimate. Your real-world results are telling you that you are only creating a very small deficit. Three months is a good amount of time -- if you said it had only been a few weeks, the better advice would be to wait and see -- so you should listen to the results you're seeing.
Maybe I'll start by not eating my exercise calories back and see if that makes a difference.
First thing you should do is accurately use a food scale for solids and semi solid foods. You haven't answered the question of how you measure your foods yet. If you don't do this first- measure food accurately- you'll keep running into this issue over and over.2 -
angelaypolite wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
Thank you for your input (I don't plan on opening my dairy)
You asked for help, we are just trying to help.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »I use my Fitbit scale.
They generally aren't considered to be very accurate.
Just wanted to add to this to agree.
My Aria increased my body fat well over 1% on Monday when I was down 4 lbs since the previous Monday. I dont even pay attention to that. My gauge for when I lose body fat?... how much less there is that giggles when I work out or puffs at the top of my pants lol.2 -
angelaypolite wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
Thank you for your input (I don't plan on opening my dairy)
You asked for help, we are just trying to help.
Yup, it's ok if you don't want to open your diary, just say so We're cool with that. Just trying to identify the right way to find where CI<CO is turning into CI>CO. Most of us look to food logging first because that's where we've found success. Try not to get too caught up in niche ways of losing, they're just different paths to the same thing, calories in and calories out. Gotta keep the main thing the main thing. 0 -
angelaypolite wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
Thank you for your input (I don't plan on opening my dairy)
You asked for help, we are just trying to help.
true, if someone holds you accountable you will be less likely to binge or "cheat". I keep my diary open it helps knowing that people can see what i am eating. if you have a close friend/family member/spouse ask them to hold you accountable. my husband is a great supporter and will bring things to my attention (kindly and because i asked him to tell me when i am going over board or messing up)2 -
angelaypolite wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
Thank you for your input (I don't plan on opening my dairy)
You asked for help, we are just trying to help.
Yup, it's ok if you don't want to open your diary, just say so We're cool with that. Just trying to identify the right way to find where CI<CO is turning into CI>CO. Most of us look to food logging first because that's where we've found success. Try not to get too caught up in niche ways of losing, they're just different paths to the same thing, calories in and calories out. Gotta keep the main thing the main thing.
agreed, but also don't eat all of your calories in debbie cakes or chips. 0 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
Thank you for your input (I don't plan on opening my dairy)
You asked for help, we are just trying to help.
Yup, it's ok if you don't want to open your diary, just say so We're cool with that. Just trying to identify the right way to find where CI<CO is turning into CI>CO. Most of us look to food logging first because that's where we've found success. Try not to get too caught up in niche ways of losing, they're just different paths to the same thing, calories in and calories out. Gotta keep the main thing the main thing.
agreed, but also don't eat all of your calories in debbie cakes or chips.
Who does this? In a couple of years of looking at food diaries, I've never once seen someone log a day that was all snack cakes or potato chips.
I don't even know how you even got that from the post you're responding to.
"Accurate food logging can lead to success" doesn't equal "You will be cool eating just potato chips."2 -
nicolelarocca9765 wrote: »angelaypolite wrote: »ElizabethBorden wrote: »Track everything you put in your mouth, gum, diet soda, coffee, tea and any additives. Be honest, not tracking something because it seems inconsequential is only going to delay your results. The goals tool within MFP are pretty good. Your diary is for you to help you figure out what works and doesn't work for you. Don't share you diary with everyone, just people who will really be able to help you or with whom you really want to share. Don't let others judgement of your diary derail you. It is easy for people to say you shouldn't eat something, but you have to be the one to decide when removing something from your diet is right for you. I have been tracking since about January faithfully and I have lost 20 lbs. I am amazed at how my food choices have changed and even more amazing is how when I eat something I used to think I would never give up, I don't even like any more.
For example, I used to love chips, especially bbq and sour cream & onion type chips. I had a handful the other day and afterwards I was wishing I just eaten some strawberries.
Thank you for your input (I don't plan on opening my dairy)
You asked for help, we are just trying to help.
true, if someone holds you accountable you will be less likely to binge or "cheat". I keep my diary open it helps knowing that people can see what i am eating. if you have a close friend/family member/spouse ask them to hold you accountable. my husband is a great supporter and will bring things to my attention (kindly and because i asked him to tell me when i am going over board or messing up)
It's less about holding someone accountable than it is helping someone identify when they might be making a common logging error.
Nobody here has any interest in chiding OP for what she is eating -- she asked for help and looking at someone's food diary is one of the top ways to help them identify what might be going wrong when they're not losing or losing slower than they expect.5 -
I calculated and averaged out all my calories each month to see why I'm not losing. I'm eating too many calories. Plain and simple.
I appreciate everyone's input.4
This discussion has been closed.
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