Is 4x working sets to much

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kmaf2018
kmaf2018 Posts: 124 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
Hi Everyone

So last week I restarted the weight training programme I did with my PT up until the end of March when I could no longer afford the sessions (had 28 sessions altogether) and never continued it by myself as I didnt have the confidence too (thats changed now).

I'm thoroughly enjoying it however, I do 4x working sets but I feel like by my 4th set I am totally knackered, I do rest between sets too. My first two working sets are always good, the 3rd one is where I start to tire but the 4th is like "oh my god, I am shattered"....See example below:

Deadlift
Set 1 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
Set 2 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
Set 3 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (first couple of reps at ease but then the rest becomes a challenge)
Set 4 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (all my reps are a challenge)

I increase the weight when I can do 10-12x reps at ease and with good form. Looking at the above, could I be tiring because I've increased the weight a bit to much or can I reduce my working sets to 3 as opposed to 4?



Replies

  • giantrobot_powerlifting
    giantrobot_powerlifting Posts: 2,598 Member
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    I love 4x8 work for hypertrophy myself. I pick a weight that I estimate to be heavy enough to do 4x3x8, and hopefully 8 on the last set. (Usually this about 70% of 1RM -- depending on which exercise.) If I get 8 and it was easy, increase next session. If not, keep working it until I can go strong 4x8. Progressively loading this way would usually take me three weeks to get through a good 4x8, which is okay because it teaches you how to train through a plateau.

    If 4x10 (most do 5x10) is your thing, drop the weight even lower and start at ~40%or rest much longer between sets. Do antagonist work if you resting is difficult.
  • StealthHealth
    StealthHealth Posts: 2,417 Member
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    I don't think that there is a hard and fast rule as to how many sets are too many but, in your instance I'd try:

    Deadlift
    Set 1 - 10x reps at 57.5kg
    Set 2 - 10x reps at 57.5kg
    Set 3 - AMRAP at 57.5kg
    Set 4 - AMRAP at 57.5kg or drop back to 55 - 50kg if required

    AMPAP = as many reps as possible

    Note that this would/should be a very challenging Deadlift session. It's not recommended that all sessions are max effort and there is mass of information and opinions on periodization (the concept of having lower effort work outs which gradually build in intensity towards an all out session and then drop back to lower intensity - kind of like building intensity as a wave)
  • kmaf2018
    kmaf2018 Posts: 124 Member
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    @nakedraygun - Ah right so should I focus on increasing the weight on my next session as opposed to on my next set?

    Also whats "Antagonist" work? (sorry).
  • kmaf2018
    kmaf2018 Posts: 124 Member
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    @StealthHealth Thanks for your response...If I did it like that how would I know when I was ready to increase my weight? I've been doing the 10-12 rep range so I know when I need to increase weights....

    The way you've described does make sense as my PT used to do this with me too, however, I just wanted a simple formula so went with the "when I hit 10-12x reps at ease and good form, I would then increase the weight and try and hit 8x reps and build up to the 10-12x again and so on"....
  • rybo
    rybo Posts: 5,424 Member
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    KMAF00 wrote: »
    Hi Everyone

    So last week I restarted the weight training programme I did with my PT up until the end of March when I could no longer afford the sessions (had 28 sessions altogether) and never continued it by myself as I didnt have the confidence too (thats changed now).

    I'm thoroughly enjoying it however, I do 4x working sets but I feel like by my 4th set I am totally knackered, I do rest between sets too. My first two working sets are always good, the 3rd one is where I start to tire but the 4th is like "oh my god, I am shattered"....See example below:

    Deadlift
    Set 1 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
    Set 2 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
    Set 3 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (first couple of reps at ease but then the rest becomes a challenge)
    Set 4 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (all my reps are a challenge)

    I increase the weight when I can do 10-12x reps at ease and with good form. Looking at the above, could I be tiring because I've increased the weight a bit to much or can I reduce my working sets to 3 as opposed to 4?



    Looks like 2 working sets to me. I would try to settle on a weight that gives you the intended number of reps for 3 sets, and close to that on the 4th. Keep working until all reps are made on the 4th & then move up. Play around with rest between sets, timing it if you have to.
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
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    KMAF00 wrote: »


    Deadlift
    Set 1 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
    Set 2 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
    Set 3 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (first couple of reps at ease but then the rest becomes a challenge)
    Set 4 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (all my reps are a challenge)

    I increase the weight when I can do 10-12x reps at ease and with good form. ]Looking at the above, could I be tiring because I've increased the weight a bit to much or can I reduce my working sets to 3 as opposed to 4?


    You could be tiring for many reasons...

    Your took a break from lifting since March, therefore you lost some strength that will return rather quickly. Perhaps you restarted where you left off? Then just lower your reps or weight a touch.

    You are not resting in between sets long enough.

    You are not recovering enough from your last deadlift session.

    You are not adapting to the weight increases. Possibly too high of increases.

    You are stressed mentally.

    You are not eating enough.

    You are detaining or overtraining. Are you doing the exact same program or did you add extra session(s) per week?

    There is no way we can tell with the way you worded your question.
  • StealthHealth
    StealthHealth Posts: 2,417 Member
    edited June 2017
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    KMAF00 wrote: »
    @StealthHealth Thanks for your response...If I did it like that how would I know when I was ready to increase my weight? I've been doing the 10-12 rep range so I know when I need to increase weights....

    The way you've described does make sense as my PT used to do this with me too, however, I just wanted a simple formula so went with the "when I hit 10-12x reps at ease and good form, I would then increase the weight and try and hit 8x reps and build up to the 10-12x again and so on"....

    when set 4 hits 10 reps @ 57.5kg, you're ready to move up.
  • Leadfoot_Lewis
    Leadfoot_Lewis Posts: 1,623 Member
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    It's very hard to increase weight when you're working in a 10-12 rep range. I personally like to keep the big lifts like Deadlifts in the 3-5 rep range- much easier to have linear progression (add weight) that way.

    This is the reason why programs like Stronglifts, Starting Strength, etc. are in the 3-5 rep range.
  • Rusty740
    Rusty740 Posts: 749 Member
    edited June 2017
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    KMAF00 wrote: »
    Hi Everyone

    So last week I restarted the weight training programme I did with my PT up until the end of March when I could no longer afford the sessions (had 28 sessions altogether) and never continued it by myself as I didnt have the confidence too (thats changed now).

    I'm thoroughly enjoying it however, I do 4x working sets but I feel like by my 4th set I am totally knackered, I do rest between sets too. My first two working sets are always good, the 3rd one is where I start to tire but the 4th is like "oh my god, I am shattered"....See example below:

    Deadlift
    Set 1 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
    Set 2 - 10x reps at 50kg (done at ease)
    Set 3 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (first couple of reps at ease but then the rest becomes a challenge)
    Set 4 - 6x reps at 57.5kg (all my reps are a challenge)

    I increase the weight when I can do 10-12x reps at ease and with good form. Looking at the above, could I be tiring because I've increased the weight a bit to much or can I reduce my working sets to 3 as opposed to 4?

    A couple things. Since those first two sets are done at ease, they're basically warm-up sets and are doing nothing for you. That means they are probably at or less than 60% of your 1RM. These do nothing but either warm you up or tire you out. You get no strength/growth, or anything effective from them. The way you are describing the program, they are tiring you out. Reduce these to 1 set of 3 with 30 kgs and 1 set of 2 at 50 kgs then go on to your worksets. I bet your 1RM is around 75-80 kgs.

    Sets 3 and 4 are work sets but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if all your reps on set 4 are a challenge and you are still eeking out 6 reps, then your form is off for those ones and you are at risk of injury. You should be doing sets to failure where the failure is where you are sure the next set will be bad form, not when you are so tired you just can't do any. There's a place for that, but it's not deadlifting like this. Injury during deadlift is not cool. Deadlift is not really meant to be a hypertrophy exercise because you want to be lifting really heavy stuff/(strength and low reps) Lifting really heavy stuff should be done at low reps. 4-6 reps are low.

    I'd say your next workout should be two warm up sets, then 3 sets of 4 at 60 kgs perfect form.
    Next workout move up to 3 sets of 5 at 60 kgs, then 3 sets of 6, then move up to 62.5 kgs and back down to 4 reps. You can move on to 4 sets later if you like. Once the deadlift gets really, really heavy then you might do less sets, but I don't think you're close yet. If you need as much as 4-5 minutes of rest between sets, that's ok. You don't want to blast through sets of deadlifts.
    I should also say, this is sortof a two x week thing, not 3 - 5 times per week. Deadlift needs a bit more rest time than squats or something.
  • firef1y72
    firef1y72 Posts: 1,579 Member
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    [quote="nakedraygun;c-39865898"
    If 4x10 (most do 5x10) is your thing, drop the weight even lower and start at ~40%or rest much longer between sets. Do antagonist work if you resting is difficult. [/quote]

    I'm one of those that does 5x10, I do them as accessory work after my main lifts (5/3/1). I do 50% of the heaviest weight I'll be lifting in the cycle the first week and then add 2.5kg each of the other 2 weeks.

    So this week I was deadlifting 50kg for 5x10 (remembering already tired as I'd worked up to 2x90kg) taking 2 mins rest between sets.
    1st set - this is easy do i really need to rest
    2nd set - still easy
    3rd set - um not quite so easy, last couple of reps are starting to feel heavy.
    4th set - ok this is getting hard, I'm sweating and my hr is up.
    5th - can't believe I'm doing this to myself, who needs cardio, how many more reps to go, last rep now I can collapse in a heap.

    For me it's the last couple of sets that push me, they should be hard but not impossible. While I can usually push through the first 3 sets quickly without resetting I do usually have to reset at least once with the final 2 sets.
  • kmaf2018
    kmaf2018 Posts: 124 Member
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    I personally dont thi
  • Rusty740
    Rusty740 Posts: 749 Member
    edited June 2017
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    nakedraygun wrote: »
    If 4x10 (most do 5x10) is your thing, drop the weight even lower and start at ~40%or rest much longer between sets. Do antagonist work if you resting is difficult.
    firef1y72 wrote: »
    I'm one of those that does 5x10, I do them as accessory work after my main lifts (5/3/1). I do 50% of the heaviest weight I'll be lifting in the cycle the first week and then add 2.5kg each of the other 2 weeks.

    So this week I was deadlifting 50kg for 5x10 (remembering already tired as I'd worked up to 2x90kg) taking 2 mins rest between sets.
    1st set - this is easy do i really need to rest
    2nd set - still easy
    3rd set - um not quite so easy, last couple of reps are starting to feel heavy.
    4th set - ok this is getting hard, I'm sweating and my hr is up.
    5th - can't believe I'm doing this to myself, who needs cardio, how many more reps to go, last rep now I can collapse in a heap.

    For me it's the last couple of sets that push me, they should be hard but not impossible. While I can usually push through the first 3 sets quickly without resetting I do usually have to reset at least once with the final 2 sets.

    This^

    This is cardio, not deadlifting for strength/muscle. Deadlifting should not exhaust a person. It should have almost no impact on your breathing rate. Being out of breath doesn't mean you had a good weightlifting workout. Being out of breath means you burned calories and got your cardio on.
  • kmaf2018
    kmaf2018 Posts: 124 Member
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    Yeah I know I breathing heavy doesnt mean I had a good workout, I'm just trying to progress my weights, but in a safe way, I certainly dont want to injure myself! Dont forget I havent lifted weights since March and want to progress safely! I love deadlifts and want to improve but want to do it safely
  • kmaf2018
    kmaf2018 Posts: 124 Member
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    From everyones advice I did today what I should/could and will contine this way going forward....Today was actually a good training session even if it meant lowering my weights slightly to perform good reps/sets and to be told my form was good was a bonus!! Good form is very important to me :-)
  • Heart_of_a_lion
    Heart_of_a_lion Posts: 32 Member
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    4 sets is perfect

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