Does Obesity Cause Inflammation? Or Is It the Other Way Around?

DevotedToDASH · July 2017

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

Regarding the lipedema, even if you have that, what you have said regarding fluid issues indicates that you likely have lymph involvement, and that necessitates another type of treatment protocol that you should see someone about.

Lipedema involves the abnormal accumulation of fat cells in the extremities. It has nothing to do with fluid in those areas. You have mentioned fluid several times in this thread. They're separate issues, though someone can suffer from both conditions.

I see I will have to be very technical in my choice of words. Edema is an accumulation of excess fluid in body tissue. Water can be that fluid. Lymph can be that fluid. Blood can be a component of that fluid.

As for separate issues - this is where I will point out that you're incorrect. Lipedema is an accumulation of excess fluid (see above) in and around fat cells, due to an abnormality in the way the fat cells absorb fluid. Normal fat cells clump together in a very tight smooth configuration. In lipedema, the fluid exchange does not work properly resulting in lumpy, fluid filled pockets. One of the things that differentiates it from regular fat is that it is inflamed and painful - I have both of these symptoms. The tissue appears different - lymphedema is smooth and rarely symmetric, while lipedema has a very uneven appearance and occurs on both sides of the body. Read more here - http://www.lipomadoc.org/lipedema.html And for the record Dr Herbst is a leading authority on Lipedema... and her information is well sourced if you take the time to go thru the references.

TheWJordinWJordin wrote: »

Doctors know about this program. They may ask for a printout so log accurately every single day. Get a food scale if you don't have one. They are next to measuring cups at the store.
I know you will get better.

Have a postage scale that measures down to the gram and a jewelry scale that measures down to the milligram - and three sets of measuring cups and spoons. I actually round up on my counts and am very careful in portion sizes. I don't eyeball anything unless I'm eating out, but I am also finding that many of the items that are available to me in stores here are not in the food database, so I will pick something very close to what I'm eating rather than adding a new food - but if I do that, I always make sure I'm erring on the side of caution and not underestimating. I've read the arguments about weighing, but truth is, unless you're licking your bowls and plates and pots and pans clean, you're still not be 100% accurate.

VintageFeline wrote: »

And I missed it but re-reading I notice the mention of leaky gut. Which isn't a thing.

If by "isn't a thing" you mean there isn't a formal diagnosis code assigned by WHO for it yet, then you're correct. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Fibromyalgia - which anyone who has it will tell you is very different than regular garden variety myalgia (muscle pain) "wasn't a thing" until 2015 when it received its own diagnosis code. Chronic Fatigue "wasn't a thing" until 1998, when it became a thing. At work (I am involved in medical insurance) we refer to it as intestinal malabsorption, not otherwise specified. Can you please cite your source?

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

Also want to mention that in no case does malnutrition ever lead to obesity. People would never die of starvation if such a thing were the case.

I have celiac disease, and before it was diagnosed I had uncontrollable diarrhea and was not absorbing nutrients.

This led to rapid weight loss, not weight retention.

You're lucky, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of anecdotal evidence that not everyone loses weight because of GI disorder that involve diarrhea. I didn't believe it at first when my GI doc told me the IBS (even with the D) could cause weight gain, but do a search on it - unless you prefer to only believe what you personally experience. Since the diarrhea part occurs in the colon and this is past the point of any nutrient absorption, I was led to believe (by my medical providers) that problems throughout my digestive tract were preventing nutrition absorption - causing my body to seek energy from muscle tissue and screwing up the way my body handled its fat stores, making it easier for me to gain weight. As an added bit of anecdotal evidence, when I started taking probiotics (okay, someone tell me they're a fad too), I stopped gaining weight AND the diarrhea has improved greatly.

Glad we can hit all of these "myths" in one thread. I'm learning a great deal - maybe not as much as I'd like about inflammation and other people's experiences - but definitely about the community...which is also a good thing

Mr_Knight · July 2017

DevotedToDASH wrote: »

For the record, I am one of those people who do not believe " a calorie is a calorie"...Our bodies are so complex and unique and there is so much science and medicine hasn't figured out yet.

Here's the bottom line. And yes, I know you won't accept this.

As long as you continue to believe what you wrote above, you will *never* solve your issues. Literally never.

I do wish you the best of luck - but it won't be enough.

VintageFeline · July 2017

Just a few resources on leaky gut.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/leaky-gut-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/leaky-bowel/

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/fad.html

Edit: missed one

http://www.badgut.org/information-centre/a-z-digestive-topics/leaky-gut-syndrome/

OliveGirl128 · July 2017

Mr_Knight wrote: »

DevotedToDASH wrote: »

For the record, I am one of those people who do not believe " a calorie is a calorie"...Our bodies are so complex and unique and there is so much science and medicine hasn't figured out yet.

Here's the bottom line. And yes, I know you won't accept this.

As long as you continue to believe what you wrote above, you will *never* solve your issues. Literally never.

I do wish you the best of luck - but it won't be enough.

This. There's just no point in even trying to help when someone has this false belief.

skinnylady2014 · July 2017

Well, I don't know anywhere near the OP's whole situation, but I will say I have at least a couple autoimmune issues as well as inflammation. For me personally, some exercise or movement daily helps. Also, using turmeric, which I have seen a couple other posters mention. Eating simply and "clean" definitely helps. Cutting way way back on flour and white sugar helps a lot. For me I feel better not using artificial sweeteners beyond Stevia. Drinking clean water every day helps. All of these things help my inflammation, but indirectly help with weight loss.

This has been my experience.

rheddmobile · July 2017

skinnylady2014 wrote: »

Well, I don't know anywhere near the OP's whole situation, but I will say I have at least a couple autoimmune issues as well as inflammation. For me personally, some exercise or movement daily helps. Also, using turmeric, which I have seen a couple other posters mention. Eating simply and "clean" definitely helps. Cutting way way back on flour and white sugar helps a lot. For me I feel better not using artificial sweeteners beyond Stevia. Drinking clean water every day helps. All of these things help my inflammation, but indirectly help with weight loss.

This has been my experience.

I started using turmeric a while ago, and although I don't know whether it has anything to do with the turmeric or was just coincidence, my postprandial glucose readings dropped about ten points at about the same time. Research on the effect of turmeric on insulin resistance is mixed but promising. Two things to know about it: the active compound in turmeric, curcumin, requires some oil to be utilized, and piperide, a compound in black pepper, greatly increases absorption. So if you're going to test drive the turmeric, try it with a little oil and black pepper.

Nikion901 · July 2017

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

OP did say that she think she might have lipedema, but with the water weight fluctuations, it sounds more like lymphedema.

http://lipedemaliposuctioncenter.com/difference-between-lipedema-and-lymphedema/

MFP is a good place to keep track of your food intake calories, carbs, fat, protein, fibre, and optionally one other ... sugar or sodium being the most common to add to the diary. Micronutrients are available also but you only get 5 slots in the diary so they would be accessible from the reports menu.

MFP is NOT such a good place for people with special medical conditions to get advice when they are looking for a conversation about their particular special circumstances.

GottaBurnEmAll · July 2017

OliveGirl128 wrote: »

Mr_Knight wrote: »

DevotedToDASH wrote: »

For the record, I am one of those people who do not believe " a calorie is a calorie"...Our bodies are so complex and unique and there is so much science and medicine hasn't figured out yet.

Here's the bottom line. And yes, I know you won't accept this.

As long as you continue to believe what you wrote above, you will *never* solve your issues. Literally never.

I do wish you the best of luck - but it won't be enough.

This. There's just no point in even trying to help when someone has this false belief.

That false belief and many others.

OP, I once, like you believed that I had so many problems and special circumstances that were insurmountable and had all sorts of sources to back me up.

I never posted about them, but must have had some niggling doubt because desperation led me to giving this all a try when I insisted that I was being as accurate as possible and lo and behold, I wasn't.

I was in denial for so long because I loved food so much and I loved being right and I think, part of me liked not having to face the fact that I was responsible for the mess I was in. Feeling like my body and conditions conspired against me was a safe place to be. Facing the idea that I was culpable and could do something to change my body and had the responsibility for that change taking place was a scary prospect.

But I was so sick and tired of being sick and tired that I finally faced facts after I'd read enough of the real facts.

I hope the same happens for you.

GottaBurnEmAll · July 2017

Nikion901 wrote: »

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

OP did say that she think she might have lipedema, but with the water weight fluctuations, it sounds more like lymphedema.

http://lipedemaliposuctioncenter.com/difference-between-lipedema-and-lymphedema/

MFP is a good place to keep track of your food intake calories, carbs, fat, protein, fibre, and optionally one other ... sugar or sodium being the most common to add to the diary. Micronutrients are available also but you only get 5 slots in the diary so they would be accessible from the reports menu.

MFP is NOT such a good place for people with special medical conditions to get advice when they are looking for a conversation about their particular special circumstances.

At this point, it's all conjecture. OP has never been diagnosed.

DevotedToDASH · July 2017

VintageFeline wrote: »

Just a few resources on leaky gut.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/leaky-gut-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/leaky-bowel/

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/fad.html

Edit: missed one

http://www.badgut.org/information-centre/a-z-digestive-topics/leaky-gut-syndrome/

Got anything more recent than 2 years ago? And your edited one appears to be a repeat.

singingflutelady · July 2017

https://www.dietvsdisease.org/leaky-gut-syndrome/

cmriverside · July 2017

I'm going to repeat what I said on page one.

There is a calorie amount that will lead to weight loss. You might not like it, and it will likely require meticulous record-keeping (which OP hasn't demonstrated yet.) It will also require pretty good nutrition most of the time for quite a long time.

Until OP is ready to accept that, all the links in the world aren't going to help.

singingflutelady · July 2017

Malabsorption does not cause fat gain and usually doesn't cause weight gain (water weight gain in a few people). If you are truly experiencing malabsorption you would be dropping weight quickly.

cmriverside · July 2017

Without exercise and being an older woman, it's doubtful a weight loss number of 1650 will be the right setting. Plus, you really do need to log your food - for all you know you're eating 2800. Right now all this is conjecture and arguing. Do the work.

DevotedToDASH · July 2017

The difference between lymphedema and lipedema - mine is nearly identical to the lipedema photo although I'm not that advanced, and nothing like the lymphedema photo. Note the difference in texture - this is the major distinguishing factor between the two, but not visually - rather by feel. The fat in lymphedema remains smooth. In lipedema the texture of the fat is completely different. It feels like lumps and bumps and tiny pellets...
and it is painful in a different way than the swelling of lymphedema.

Anyone who wants to chip in for the $650-$1000 that a diagnosis would cost me, let me know - I'll be happy to be diagnosed. Or if you know of a Dr local to me who can diagnose it that will do it for the cost of a regular office visit - give me a name and I'll make the appointment. I'm not looking for a diagnosis from anyone at MFP - please feel free to quote anywhere that I said I was.

ugofatcat · July 2017

OP, I would just focus on what you can control. You can continue to carefully log what you eat, you can use a food scale for accuracy, and figure out what kind of exercise you can do and include that.

The Mediterranean diet has been shown to improve inflammation (albeit inflammation related to cardiovascular disease; source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1262363612001528) so perhaps try to model your diet off of that? (Lots of fruits and veggies, whole grains like oatmeal, plain popcorn, brown rice, quinoa, plant based proteins like beans and legumes, fish 2-3 times a week, 1/4 a cup of nuts a day, low fat dairy, chicken/turkey some days while avoiding red meat and added sugars.)

Also I am not sure if you mentioned this, what is your current weight? With your excess fluid what does your weight fluctuate between?

VintageFeline · July 2017

I'm not really sure I understand the purpose of this thread really. Yes obesity can cause all sorts of health issues, not least the stress on the body of so much fat around organs the musculoskeletal system that has to carry it.

But if you're convinced that everything you have is either mysterious or not accepted by the medical mainstream let alone treated what do you want? A hall pass to stay obese because too hard? A hall pass because somehow you're the only human who can't lose weight on 1200 calories and yet manages to maintain on 1800?

And I'm not trying to be mean but at some point there has to be some self-responsibility. Many of the posters replying, myself included, have various physical and mental health conditions, we take medications that can make controlling our intake challenging, we have conditions that knock us off our feet literally and metaphorically. But at some point we had to accept that while there may be some unusual things going on, we're not actually that special and if we commit we can make changes. And all of us who did that have.

I'm not going to pretend it's easy. There's a lot of baggage that comes from being sick and not being able to access healthcare as freely as you'd like is certainly a challenge. But the good news is that you are not so sick you have to be in hospital regardless of health insurance etc. Which means there is plenty opportunity to see what can happen with making a committed effort for say, 6 months.

DevotedToDASH · July 2017

OliveGirl128 wrote: »

Mr_Knight wrote: »

DevotedToDASH wrote: »

For the record, I am one of those people who do not believe " a calorie is a calorie"...Our bodies are so complex and unique and there is so much science and medicine hasn't figured out yet.

Here's the bottom line. And yes, I know you won't accept this.

As long as you continue to believe what you wrote above, you will *never* solve your issues. Literally never.

I do wish you the best of luck - but it won't be enough.

This. There's just no point in even trying to help when someone has this false belief.

I stand by what I said - and here's my research to back me up.

From Harvard Medical School
health.harvard.edu/blog/theres-no-sugar-coating-it-all-calories-are-not-created-equal-2016110410602

A Review of Thermodynamics and Weight Loss https://researchgate.net/publication/8140313_Thermodynamics_of_weight_loss_diets

Zoe Harbcombe, PhD - Obesity Researcher
zoeharcombe.com/the-obesity-epidemic/chapter-2-is-a-calorie-a-calorie/ and zoeharcombe.com/2011/05/calories-energy-balance-thermodynamics-weight-loss/

Jason Fung MD
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/first-law-thermodynamics-irrelevant/

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79/5/899S.full

PubMed.gov (National Library of Medicine)
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500946
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22735432/#cm22735432_16096

There are many more, but why waste any more of my time or yours?

Please let me know why you think my sources are any less reliable than yours. If it's just because yours appear to make you feel better and have been around longer, good for you. You are entitled to your beliefs.

Back to my original request for people to share their experiences with inflammation and its effect on obesity, or vice versa.

DevotedToDASH · July 2017

VintageFeline wrote: »

I'm not really sure I understand the purpose of this thread really. Yes obesity can cause all sorts of health issues, not least the stress on the body of so much fat around organs the musculoskeletal system that has to carry it.

But if you're convinced that everything you have is either mysterious or not accepted by the medical mainstream let alone treated what do you want? A hall pass to stay obese because too hard? A hall pass because somehow you're the only human who can't lose weight on 1200 calories and yet manages to maintain on 1800?

And I'm not trying to be mean but at some point there has to be some self-responsibility. Many of the posters replying, myself included, have various physical and mental health conditions, we take medications that can make controlling our intake challenging, we have conditions that knock us off our feet literally and metaphorically. But at some point we had to accept that while there may be some unusual things going on, we're not actually that special and if we commit we can make changes. And all of us who did that have.

I'm not going to pretend it's easy. There's a lot of baggage that comes from being sick and not being able to access healthcare as freely as you'd like is certainly a challenge. But the good news is that you are not so sick you have to be in hospital regardless of health insurance etc. Which means there is plenty opportunity to see what can happen with making a committed effort for say, 6 months.

I'm not trying to be mean either, but do you always troll posts with absolutely no intent to answer the question that was asked? You either have no issues with inflammation, or you won't discuss them... but that's your right.

I've lost weight before - in the early 90s - 60+ pounds out of 80 I needed to lose at the time, but I could never get that last 20 off - and the "whatever you want to call it" with my legs and arms was already noticeable. Again in the mid 2000s - 70+ pounds of the 100 I gained back during the better part of two years of hospital cafeteria food and caring for my second husband as he was dying. I did it by severely restricting and exercising when as I realized I had to start living again, but the weight loss wall came up at a higher weight and again the "whatever you want to call it with my legs and arms was worsening and spreading to my abdomen. I tried going back and doing what I did the second time, actually down to recreating meals based on the diet logs I was keeping - and ended up in the hospital in intensive care. It was then that I found out just how bad all of the inflammation was affecting my body. I've been in and out of the hospital once or twice a year since then, and to date have seen at least a dozen specialists and several dieticians who cannot figure out why standard treatment strategies and medications don't work for me. One doctor broke down and with tears in her eyes, admitted she couldn't help me because I WAS one of those people who broke the accepted rules - and told me I would have to find answers on my own... and while it's taken me awhile to get here - that's exactly what I'm doing.

Anything else you'd like to know? Glad no one makes assumptions around here... although I am thankful to the people who have stopped by to offer what I asked for.

singingflutelady · July 2017

DevotedToDASH wrote: »

try2again wrote: »

This confuses me... the same calorie amount causes you to gain OR lose slowly? That makes no sense. It would seem you have to be confusing your water retention with fat gain. (As has been pointed out, a person's fat loss can easily be masked by water retention, even a substantial amount.) But ultimately, if you can lose at 1200, albeit more slowly than you might like, you can lose.

How many calories do you eat when you're not restricting? If you were gaining body fat on 1200 calories, it would seem the weight would pile on at an outrageous rate at a normal calorie level.

I realize this was not the issue you posted about. Usually, posters will attempt to clarify an issue like this for the benefit of others who may casually read it and think, "Oh, see there- not everyone can lose weight!" I don't think we know everything there is to know about weight loss, but in the vast majority of cases (like, really vast), the problem boils down to very ordinary, fixable issues. Hope you can find a way to progress.

If what you're asking is whether I know how much of my excess weight is fat - no. Average calorie intake is typically between 1500-1800 calories with occasional splurges (a dinner out with wine or dessert once a month). Because of my body habitus (and what I'm supposing is lipoedema) biometric impedance is not accurate since it bases water composition on what registers in the legs (or arms if they're doing arm-leg studies) and mine definitely carry more water than the rest of my body proportionately. I don't float easily in water, which I've been told indicates more water than fat, but to my knowledge, only full body imaging like MRI or DEXA would give really accurate results. The radiation risk isn't worth it to me. I once asked a physician how much excess water weight I was likely carrying around and they guessed about 45-50 pounds... nothing like the 3-4 lbs most women intermittently gain or lose.

To clarify the 1200 calories and losing slowly or gaining - it most definitely depends on exactly what I'm eating, what time of year it is, what medications I'm on, and at that point in time, what time of the month it was, as well as what my last meal was. Summer heat is an automatic 10-15 pound weight gain. SSRIs or beta blockers can add another 10, but I occasionally need them to deal with PTSD. And while I hate pointing to sugar again, eating a protein bar is the same as eating half a candy bar and can cause me a 5 lb water weight gain that doesn't go away in a week. Imagine a life with a full schedule and without any processed or fast foods and perhaps you'll get a better understanding of what I am trying to figure out.

Let's be honest. When people look at an overweight person, they're not considering whether it's water or fat that's making them "fluffy"... and when I get on a scale or try to do something that my size doesn't allow me to do, I just want to be a more normal weight. Figuring out how to get there in a world where the "rules" don't work for you isn't fun, but I will figure it out. Hopefully, eating clean and vegetarian will help - or at least provide me another thing to cross off my list of trials and errors.

MRI doesn't use radiation btw

Does Obesity Cause Inflammation? Or Is It the Other Way Around?

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