Do you need a "leg day" if you do high resistance elliptical?
batorkin
Posts: 281 Member
I lift 2-3 times a week but I've been skipping "leg day" because I always do 30 minutes of high resistance running on an elliptical instead (almost daily). I don't use my arms much on it, so my legs get a really good burn/workout.
Will this result in "skinny legs" but big upper body in the long run? My goal isn't to be buff, just toned with an athletic look.
Will this result in "skinny legs" but big upper body in the long run? My goal isn't to be buff, just toned with an athletic look.
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Resistance training will probably preserve/build more muscle than longer-slower cardio, but less than bodyweight/resistance training. It's all relative to what you're doing/your body type/your goals.1
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Resistance training will probably preserve/build more muscle than longer-slower cardio, but less than bodyweight/resistance training. It's all relative to what you're doing/your body type/your goals.
So if I am looking just to have a toned "non-skinny fat" build, resistance training my legs should be fine? I think it only looks weird when you got huge upper body muscles with no leg muscles and I don't plan to bulk.0 -
Neve been a leg day fan, but unfortunately, running, cycling or elliptical wont give you the balanced look you probably want.2
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Neve been a leg day fan, but unfortunately, running, cycling or elliptical wont give you the balanced look you probably want.
The main problem is I live rural. It's 40 minutes to the nearest gym, so I bought my own set of weights and equipment. I only have a bunch of dumbbells for weight training, and squats really hurt my knees (not in a good way). I am not really sure how to include my legs with the equipment I have.
I've been loading up 50 pounds in each arm (typical farmer's carry), and going up and down 1 step over and over which is about the only thing I can do that doesn't hurt my knees. My arms give out before my legs though.0 -
Cardio with resistance doesn't result in skinny legs - but it doesn't do a great deal for big legs either.
If you are aiming for something in the middle ground then it's probably appropriate for your athletic look goals but.....
You won't get much benefit from doing the same thing time after time. You could alternate rather than do elliptical "almost daily".0 -
Cardio with resistance doesn't result in skinny legs - but it doesn't do a great deal for big legs either.
If you are aiming for something in the middle ground then it's probably appropriate for your athletic look goals but.....
You won't get much benefit from doing the same thing time after time. You could alternate rather than do elliptical "almost daily".
Right now I am still losing weight, which is my main goal. I just don't want to lose it and end up having no muscle left over, so I am lifting and doing resistance cardio to help minimize loses.
I don't have access to a gym in my rural town, and I can't afford to buy an entire home gym. Right now my workout consist of an elliptical and a bunch of dumbbells, but I have no extra money right now to buy any additional equipment.
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Cardio with resistance doesn't result in skinny legs - but it doesn't do a great deal for big legs either.
If you are aiming for something in the middle ground then it's probably appropriate for your athletic look goals but.....
You won't get much benefit from doing the same thing time after time. You could alternate rather than do elliptical "almost daily".
Right now I am still losing weight, which is my main goal. I just don't want to lose it and end up having no muscle left over, so I am lifting and doing resistance cardio to help minimize loses.
I don't have access to a gym in my rural town, and I can't afford to buy an entire home gym. Right now my workout consist of an elliptical and a bunch of dumbbells, but I have no extra money right now to buy any additional equipment.
My situation is similar to a degree in that I do a lot of resistance cardio (cycling in my case) but I'm very limited on being able to strength train my legs due to knee and spinal injuries plus I need recovery time from my cycling Garmin told me 53 hours recovery after today's fairly extreme indoor cycling training session!). I can't lunge at all and can't squat or deadlift with any testing amount of weight.
Think of people who do resistance cardio such as rowers, swimmers, cyclists (but not extreme distance cyclists before someone goes off at a tangent assuming that all cyclists look like Tour de France winners!) - if that matches your physique goal then you are fine.
Still don't think same thing daily is a good idea - your performance will plateau and there's no recovery. An hour alternate days would do more for you than 30 minutes daily.
My old man cyclist legs - not skinny, not big either.
By the way there's good bodyweight routines around and if you can discover why squats hurt you and remedy that they are a great exercise.
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Neve been a leg day fan, but unfortunately, running, cycling or elliptical wont give you the balanced look you probably want.
The main problem is I live rural. It's 40 minutes to the nearest gym, so I bought my own set of weights and equipment. I only have a bunch of dumbbells for weight training, and squats really hurt my knees (not in a good way). I am not really sure how to include my legs with the equipment I have.
I've been loading up 50 pounds in each arm (typical farmer's carry), and going up and down 1 step over and over which is about the only thing I can do that doesn't hurt my knees. My arms give out before my legs though.
Then gym exercises might not feel much better on your knees. Do what you can without pain, and see a doctor if it gets worse.
You can also try lunges, side lunges, wall sits... you can also try strengthening the surrounding muscles with resistance bands to hit the hip flexors and hip abductors and other stabilizing muscles.0 -
Try goblet squats with dumbbells. I have wonky knees and goblet squats shift my balance enough not to hurt them. There are a bunch of different lunge / squat / deadlift variants you can do with what you have and some might be okay for you. Straight legged deadlifts don't use your knees but target your hams and glutes - they would be tricky to do with dumbbells but you could probably use one, sort of like a kettle bell swing.0
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Looked it up and it seems you can do Romanian deadlifts with dumbbells - like this:
https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/romanian-deadlift-with-dumbbells1 -
If you really want optimal results you need access to a barbell and learn proper form for compound lifts.
People who claim their knees hurt other than some injuries can squat at parallel with good form if you can walk and sit on a toilet with little to no pain eventually. The pain usually is a result from terrible form and lack of practice.
I guy I've coached lifting for the past year would never squat because he claimed knee pain prevented him. He just squatted over 465lbs a few hours ago in his first meet. Results can be had if you work a plan.5 -
If you really want optimal results you need access to a barbell and learn proper form for compound lifts.
People who claim their knees hurt other than some injuries can squat at parallel with good form if you can walk and sit on a toilet with little to no pain eventually. The pain usually is a result from terrible form and lack of practice.
I guy I've coached lifting for the past year would never squat because he claimed knee pain prevented him. He just squatted over 465lbs a few hours ago in his first meet. Results can be had if you work a plan.
I haven’t squatted for nearly 3 years now and rarely use the leg press but I have good leg development. It’s all about hitting volume/frequency/intensity on the moves you do.2 -
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Since you have free weights and a cardio machine that you enjoy using daily, as well as pain during leg day, might Harley Pasternak's Five Factor Fitness be an option? It came out about 10 years ago, but the science still appears sound. Rather than a "leg day", it divides weight work into 5 days, each with a specific arm, core, and leg target. The rest periods and meals are little gimmicky, and there's next to nothing about dynamics or static stretching, but speaking only for myself, the workout never bothered my loose knee as much as a dedicated leg day does.0
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Because elipticals suck5
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Neve been a leg day fan, but unfortunately, running, cycling or elliptical wont give you the balanced look you probably want.
The main problem is I live rural. It's 40 minutes to the nearest gym, so I bought my own set of weights and equipment. I only have a bunch of dumbbells for weight training, and squats really hurt my knees (not in a good way). I am not really sure how to include my legs with the equipment I have.
I've been loading up 50 pounds in each arm (typical farmer's carry), and going up and down 1 step over and over which is about the only thing I can do that doesn't hurt my knees. My arms give out before my legs though.
Are you squatting to parallel or slightly lower? I find that stops the knees hurting0 -
I totally <kittened> my left knee my sophomore year in high school Football. Did not do squats after that. Fast forward 30+ years I am doing squats (and dead lifts) and absolutely loving it. In fact, I would suggest that my knee is WAY BETTER now than it was before I started squatting. I am pretty much go *kitten*-to-the-grass!
Key is to find and maintain proper form and do not engage in ego-lifting.0 -
Your choice.
Ellipitical will NOT develop your leg strength the way that doing squats and/or deadlifts and/or other quad, ham and/or glute lifts will.
If your goal is general fitness and conditioning, the elliptical is fine. If you want to get stronger and more muscular, exercising on the elliptical alone will not be enough.1 -
trigden1991 wrote: »If you really want optimal results you need access to a barbell and learn proper form for compound lifts.
People who claim their knees hurt other than some injuries can squat at parallel with good form if you can walk and sit on a toilet with little to no pain eventually. The pain usually is a result from terrible form and lack of practice.
I guy I've coached lifting for the past year would never squat because he claimed knee pain prevented him. He just squatted over 465lbs a few hours ago in his first meet. Results can be had if you work a plan.
I haven’t squatted for nearly 3 years now and rarely use the leg press but I have good leg development. It’s all about hitting volume/frequency/intensity on the moves you do.
I was referring to optimal results, not just good.
Good can be had without squatting or deadlifting obviously.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »If you really want optimal results you need access to a barbell and learn proper form for compound lifts.
People who claim their knees hurt other than some injuries can squat at parallel with good form if you can walk and sit on a toilet with little to no pain eventually. The pain usually is a result from terrible form and lack of practice.
I guy I've coached lifting for the past year would never squat because he claimed knee pain prevented him. He just squatted over 465lbs a few hours ago in his first meet. Results can be had if you work a plan.
I haven’t squatted for nearly 3 years now and rarely use the leg press but I have good leg development. It’s all about hitting volume/frequency/intensity on the moves you do.
I was referring to optimal results, not just good.
Good can be had without squatting or deadlifting obviously.
Nope I would still disagree. There is absolutely no requirement for squats or deadlifts for "optimal" results.1 -
Strong legs and low back are the foundation for all strength training. Squats therefore are fundamental. I'd skip arms and uppers before legs and lowers. Squats hit some of the biggest muscles in the body all simultaneously- more "bang for your buck". I squat because I want to get in and out of the gym as quickly as possible. I also personally despise the "big uppers" and "so-so lowers" look... I get it though that chest and arms training is super fun. I wear a hoodie in the gym just so I never become one of THOSE guys. So yeah, don't give in to the dark side!3
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I used to think there were no cardio machines that could build up legs until I took up Indoor rowing seriously. I've packed on 20 lbs of muscle in the three years that I've been rowing. I went from 245 lbs down to 170 at my lowest and now I'm back up to 190 with the same BF I had when I was 170. I row tons (70K a week or so). I still lift (and do plyometrics) but mainly it's the rowing that builds the legs up. I did running, Spinning/Biking for years before that. Nothing close to rowing. My legs and lats, shoulders and back are pretty big now. Plus, I have a semi defined six pack at 53 (no other ab work). Look at pics of Olympic rowers (or even college ones) and compare them to other athletes. It works every major muscle except chest. Many of the world's best rowers don't even lift. A lot of Aussies and New Zealanders only row and they are huge (except the sunken chest!). I do it in part because I do Indoor racing, but also it's efficient as anything. 50 minutes of hard rowing and 150 pushups, 150 or so military presses and that's a great full body workout. I only do added leg workouts because I'm working to go from a local competitive rower to a Regionally competitive one (with the long term goal of racing at the World Indoors at 55 and placing in the top 10 for my age group).
Rowers now include guys like Connor McGregor and Hugh Jackman, among others. Most MMA fighters all now row indoor. There's a reason why most Cross Fit gyms have two pieces of cardio equipment - the Concept2 rower and an Assault Bike (Watts bike). The guy who trains special forces/Seals - former World class rower and he loves the rower for training our troops (he was University of MI womens' crew coach for years).
I'm not talking Orange Theory stuff either. I'm talking real rowing (either OTW or a Concept2). Those WaterRowers make great furniture, not great rowing machines.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »If you really want optimal results you need access to a barbell and learn proper form for compound lifts.
People who claim their knees hurt other than some injuries can squat at parallel with good form if you can walk and sit on a toilet with little to no pain eventually. The pain usually is a result from terrible form and lack of practice.
I guy I've coached lifting for the past year would never squat because he claimed knee pain prevented him. He just squatted over 465lbs a few hours ago in his first meet. Results can be had if you work a plan.
I haven’t squatted for nearly 3 years now and rarely use the leg press but I have good leg development. It’s all about hitting volume/frequency/intensity on the moves you do.
I was referring to optimal results, not just good.
Good can be had without squatting or deadlifting obviously.
Nope I would still disagree. There is absolutely no requirement for squats or deadlifts for "optimal" results.
That's dependant on the overall goal of the person and efficiency of the lifts. I would hazard yours is not strong as possible in the least amount of time for lifting weight off the floor or on your back.0 -
LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »I totally <kittened> my left knee my sophomore year in high school Football. Did not do squats after that. Fast forward 30+ years I am doing squats (and dead lifts) and absolutely loving it. In fact, I would suggest that my knee is WAY BETTER now than it was before I started squatting. I am pretty much go *kitten*-to-the-grass!
Key is to find and maintain proper form and do not engage in ego-lifting.
This is me too. I had a "bad knee" all through my 20s. I always wore a brace for sports, and couldn't sit in a car or on an airplane with my knee bent for long periods of time without serious pain for a few days after.
I started getting back into heavy weight lifting including squats and lunges (being very careful on form) after the birth of my 3rd kid when I was. My knee is now fine and I'm almost 40.
OP: Ditto the suggestion on goblet squats. And if you want to try lunges, try stepping backwards so you can control the angle of the front knee. On both, start low, not with the 50 lbs dumbbell. Start with 20 and work your way up.0 -
If a person thinks that muscle can't be built on an elliptical, then just don't convert watts to lb/ft per second. Quite a few decent elliptical machines can match the resistance level that most amateur lifters would lift on a squat or deadlift. Used properly they can easily build muscle, and even lower priced and featured ellipticals should have plenty of resistance to preserve muscle. The elliptical in our home can equal resistance to over 550 lb ft per second.
Some of the HIIT studies showed that with higher intensity, exercises usually considered more of a cardio exercise can increase anaerobic power. IIRC the Tabata studies showed over a 25% increase just doing those short intense intervals. As with any other method to build muscle there is the weight (or resistance) vs time vs range of motion factors. Range of motion would not only be distance, but would impact the muscles that engaged the most and biomechanics of the exercise.
It would be interesting to see where the crossover in exercise efficiency would be using various machines for differing goals, but to claim that certain machines can't build muscle is quite a stretch. It's just as bad as saying deadlifts couldn't help you cycle faster.0 -
In addition to the comment about squats, which I absolutely love, consider dead lifts. I used to count squats as my favorite exercise on the planet. That changed when I started doing dead lifts. LOVE THEM. But, as others have mentioned, it all depends on your goals.0
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BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »I totally <kittened> my left knee my sophomore year in high school Football. Did not do squats after that. Fast forward 30+ years I am doing squats (and dead lifts) and absolutely loving it. In fact, I would suggest that my knee is WAY BETTER now than it was before I started squatting. I am pretty much go *kitten*-to-the-grass!
Key is to find and maintain proper form and do not engage in ego-lifting.
This is me too. I had a "bad knee" all through my 20s. I always wore a brace for sports, and couldn't sit in a car or on an airplane with my knee bent for long periods of time without serious pain for a few days after.
I started getting back into heavy weight lifting including squats and lunges (being very careful on form) after the birth of my 3rd kid when I was. My knee is now fine and I'm almost 40.
OP: Ditto the suggestion on goblet squats. And if you want to try lunges, try stepping backwards so you can control the angle of the front knee. On both, start low, not with the 50 lbs dumbbell. Start with 20 and work your way up.
I have a knee that doc's told me 12 years ago needed replaced. If you have a knee as structurally bad as mine, you probably shouldn't be doing barbell deadlifts (at least very heavy ones) or squats. With that said, though, I'm 53 now and have no plans on getting the knee replaced anytime soon (they ended up doing an ACL replacement and microfracture surgery, though I had sheered all the meniscus off the bone).
You can do a lot with heavy Kettlebells. I use 24 kg Kettlebells for a lot. Heavy swings, Goblet squats. Also, you can use them for weighted bridges (killer for hamstring development) and my favorite is probably one legged pendulum deadlifts.
I do lunges wide like you mentioned, but the bad knee on the back leg is very difficult. I'll also do a lot of set work. Using two 35 lb kettlebells at the gym. Go from squats to deadlifts to military presses. Do a few rounds of those along with one arm KB swings and it's a very effective lower body workout without heavy equipment.
Dan Johns (the famous strength coach) swore by the 10000 KB swings (500 a day for 20 days spread out over a month) for powerlifting PBs. I think 500 KB swings a day is somewhat risky but if the OP wanted other options, getting two KBs at home is a great (and relatively inexpensive) option to have for leg work.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »I used to think there were no cardio machines that could build up legs until I took up Indoor rowing seriously. I've packed on 20 lbs of muscle in the three years that I've been rowing. I went from 245 lbs down to 170 at my lowest and now I'm back up to 190 with the same BF I had when I was 170. I row tons (70K a week or so). I still lift (and do plyometrics) but mainly it's the rowing that builds the legs up. I did running, Spinning/Biking for years before that. Nothing close to rowing. My legs and lats, shoulders and back are pretty big now. Plus, I have a semi defined six pack at 53 (no other ab work). Look at pics of Olympic rowers (or even college ones) and compare them to other athletes. It works every major muscle except chest. Many of the world's best rowers don't even lift. A lot of Aussies and New Zealanders only row and they are huge (except the sunken chest!). I do it in part because I do Indoor racing, but also it's efficient as anything. 50 minutes of hard rowing and 150 pushups, 150 or so military presses and that's a great full body workout. I only do added leg workouts because I'm working to go from a local competitive rower to a Regionally competitive one (with the long term goal of racing at the World Indoors at 55 and placing in the top 10 for my age group).
Rowers now include guys like Connor McGregor and Hugh Jackman, among others. Most MMA fighters all now row indoor. There's a reason why most Cross Fit gyms have two pieces of cardio equipment - the Concept2 rower and an Assault Bike (Watts bike). The guy who trains special forces/Seals - former World class rower and he loves the rower for training our troops (he was University of MI womens' crew coach for years).
I'm not talking Orange Theory stuff either. I'm talking real rowing (either OTW or a Concept2). Those WaterRowers make great furniture, not great rowing machines.
Thanks for your post. Definitely moved rowing into my radar.... never would have considered it before. I'll have to give it a try.1 -
Your welcome Bill. A couple of guys to check out possibly on Instagram for you. Shawn Baker is WR holder on certain sprints for over 50. He was also a WR holder for powerlifting years ago too. Sprints (under 1000m racing) is becoming an indoor rowing niche category onto itself. The Arnold Classic has it now (I'm thinking about doing that this year). "Sprinters" -- rowers that work less than 1000m, use more power and build more bulk. I do way too many meters to build a ton of bulk. Think like 100m runner versus marathoner builds, but easy on the joints.
Another sprinter is Ross Love. Huge power guy. Also, there's an Aussie former Olympian too (Olympic 2K meter rower) that's since turned to sprints. He's a beast. Sam Loch is his name.
Most of these guys have some incredible training tips on Instagram. They don't like to do a lot of cardio, and they gear more toward building mass. Sprints are fun! Just get some good form videos. Dark Horse Rowing on YouTube has some really good ones. It's imperative if doing sprints to do them with your legs driving first. Otherwise you can risk back injury. You're talking about generating mass Watts (500 to 900 watts). You want that load to be on your legs, not your back.
Good luck!0
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