the right training program for desired body composition?
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JerSchmare wrote: »
Um, this is exactly what I was talking about? The quality of most of the pictures is poor and I didn't go though all of the 115 pages, but what I saw didn't motivate me. Most of the women have very pronounced muscles, many have "curves". I think there's a certain assumption about how the women want to look, or how they should want to look, or what men like a woman to look (which I don't care about), which is so normalised that one can't imagine someone wanting a different body composition? I don't know...
Maybe you can expand more on what your goals are and give us more of idea we can better help you. Do you want a more lean frame like Zoe Saldana or a VS model? I would still consider those frames curvy in terms of their waist to hip ratio. Also those frames are very lean, and a result of excellent genetics. If you just want to look more fit and lean but similar to how you look now, then you don't even have to do formal strength training.. DancingMoosie mentioned programs like T25, 30day shred, or other Beachbody programs which might be more what you are looking for?
Well, here are progress pictures from someone doing a BBG program for example. And the result photos look close to my goals. As you can see, the person is very toned, lean, not too thin, but has no pronounced muscles anywhere.
VS models are too curvy for my taste.
I was actually looking into BBG program (which doesn't include much lifting if I'm not mistakes?) but there isn't enough space for me to do them at my gym and it's not possible at home because of my living situation. So I was wondering if there's a way to use gym equipment (machines, weights, etc.) to achieve a similar look.
I don't know if it helps, but there seems to be a lot of mini fake going on in the after photo: the woman leans forward slightly, which creates this thigh gap. You can see it in the curvature of her spine. The top made of more fabric makes the shoulders/upper back appear smaller. The light is softer, making it appear as if she lost her cellulite, and she's further away from the camera. There's more camera trickery in there, mainly with how she holds her shoulders, and how the camera is positions in various photos, higher looking down on her vs. fairly horizontal for example. And that is before any potential photoshopping. Please don't try to follow those kind of photos, unless you want to look 'perfect' only on certain photos as well.4 -
i haven't read any of the other replies, but essentially your goal can be acheived by doing three things:
- HIIT Bodyweight work and lots of LISS cardio
- A calorie deficit and subsequently lower maintainance calories
- Lower protein intake diet (for example, a HCLF vegan diet)
edit: p.s. this kind of physique is a *kitten* to maintain for most people because it requires consistent daily exercise and activity and nearly indefinitely lower calories.
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I see a lot of good discussion here but I'm curious since I haven't seen any recommendations for New Rules of Lifting For Women. Has this program gone out of style as a general introductory program for women?
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I'm going to emphasize something others have alluded to: Weight training programs affect people, especially women, very slowly.
If you start a program, it will be weeks to months before significant appearance results become visible (other than maybe some mostly-water muscle swelling that's temporary). There may be strength increases (neuromuscular adaptation), which are useful, or some firming up, but it takes a long time to add muscle mass.
A consequence is that in practice you'll have plenty of time to adjust your routine or even stop it if you don't like where it's heading. You're not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find you have a physique suited to a bodybuilding magazine, with no warning.
This is a good thread about picking a program:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you3 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I see a lot of good discussion here but I'm curious since I haven't seen any recommendations for New Rules of Lifting For Women. Has this program gone out of style as a general introductory program for women?
I think the program itself is fine, but misaligned with what OP wants to acheive (which is essentially, a "waifish" physique). Other than that the program is kind of tedious to complete, requires a ton of equipment in supersets that can't actually be done in most gym settings, and takes quite some time to complete (about an hour per workout). I find that the book itself is helpful more-so for individuals who need the mental shift that "lifting weights won't make you look like arnold", but i'm finding less and less people who believe that to be the case anyway. For those reasons alone i generally don't recommend it.4 -
rainbowbow wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I see a lot of good discussion here but I'm curious since I haven't seen any recommendations for New Rules of Lifting For Women. Has this program gone out of style as a general introductory program for women?
I think the program itself is fine, but misaligned with what OP wants to acheive (which is essentially, a "waifish" physique). Other than that the program is kind of tedious to complete, requires a ton of equipment in supersets that can't actually be done in most gym settings, and takes quite some time to complete (about an hour per workout). I find that the book itself is helpful more-so for individuals who need the mental shift that "lifting weights won't make you look like arnold", but i'm finding less and less people who believe that to be the case anyway. For those reasons alone i generally don't recommend it.
Thanks for the information, this makes sense now and I'm also very glad to see that the "I'm going to look like Arnold if I touch a 20lb DB!" mentality has faded. It's not gone, you still see it here form time to time but it looks like the awareness of strength isn't the same as bulky is finally starting to sink in.0 -
JerSchmare wrote: »
Um, this is exactly what I was talking about? The quality of most of the pictures is poor and I didn't go though all of the 115 pages, but what I saw didn't motivate me. Most of the women have very pronounced muscles, many have "curves". I think there's a certain assumption about how the women want to look, or how they should want to look, or what men like a woman to look (which I don't care about), which is so normalised that one can't imagine someone wanting a different body composition? I don't know...
Maybe you can expand more on what your goals are and give us more of idea we can better help you. Do you want a more lean frame like Zoe Saldana or a VS model? I would still consider those frames curvy in terms of their waist to hip ratio. Also those frames are very lean, and a result of excellent genetics. If you just want to look more fit and lean but similar to how you look now, then you don't even have to do formal strength training.. DancingMoosie mentioned programs like T25, 30day shred, or other Beachbody programs which might be more what you are looking for?
Well, here are progress pictures from someone doing a BBG program for example. And the result photos look close to my goals. As you can see, the person is very toned, lean, not too thin, but has no pronounced muscles anywhere.
VS models are too curvy for my taste.
I was actually looking into BBG program (which doesn't include much lifting if I'm not mistakes?) but there isn't enough space for me to do them at my gym and it's not possible at home because of my living situation. So I was wondering if there's a way to use gym equipment (machines, weights, etc.) to achieve a similar look.
I don't know if it helps, but there seems to be a lot of mini fake going on in the after photo: the woman leans forward slightly, which creates this thigh gap. You can see it in the curvature of her spine. The top made of more fabric makes the shoulders/upper back appear smaller. The light is softer, making it appear as if she lost her cellulite, and she's further away from the camera. There's more camera trickery in there, mainly with how she holds her shoulders, and how the camera is positions in various photos, higher looking down on her vs. fairly horizontal for example. Or standing further away from that door creates the illusion that she's much slimmer than she is due to the spacing between her body and the frames on the sides. And that is before any potential photoshopping. Please don't try to follow those kind of photos, unless you want to look 'perfect' only on certain photos as well.2 -
rainbowbow wrote: »i haven't read any of the other replies, but essentially your goal can be acheived by doing three things:
- HIIT Bodyweight work and lots of LISS cardio
- A calorie deficit and subsequently lower maintainance calories
- Lower protein intake diet (for example, a HCLF vegan diet)
edit: p.s. this kind of physique is a *kitten* to maintain for most people because it requires consistent daily exercise and activity and nearly indefinitely lower calories.
Thanks! It's interesting because to my inexperienced eyes she doesn't look neither super skinny, nor too lean, just slim and toned. It's depressing to know it's so hard to achieve and maintain.
In terms of exercise, I think BBG program is mostly high intensity bodyweight resistance training and some HIIT mixed into that with little cardio. But I might be mistaken.1 -
Oops, something went wrong here. Didn't mean to post twice *is confused*0
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rainbowbow wrote: »i haven't read any of the other replies, but essentially your goal can be acheived by doing three things:
- HIIT Bodyweight work and lots of LISS cardio
- A calorie deficit and subsequently lower maintainance calories
- Lower protein intake diet (for example, a HCLF vegan diet)
edit: p.s. this kind of physique is a *kitten* to maintain for most people because it requires consistent daily exercise and activity and nearly indefinitely lower calories.
Thanks! It's interesting because to my inexperienced eyes she doesn't look neither super skinny, nor too lean, just slim and toned. It's depressing to know it's so hard to achieve and maintain.
In terms of exercise, I think BBG program is mostly high intensity bodyweight resistance training and some HIIT mixed into that with little cardio. But I might be mistaken.
That's what I'm doing due to lack ot a gym or other possibilities (and I like the fun aspect of it). Not this particular programme; I rather build my own based on things I find online. I did this before for about a year in the past when I also didn't have access to a gym. I was working my butt off, but looked nowhere near where she is. However, I did look what you'd probably describe as bulky - and I loved it. I even had a proper 4-pack.
But as other have said: you don't go to bed and wake up 'bulky' the next morning. Genes have a lot to do with how your body reacts. It's very possible you can't achieve this. And you certainly don't maintain it if you don't watch your food intake every single day, and not work out every single day. It's like the elusive sixpack for some guys: it's constant work, just for an idealised look. Once you stop your bum starts sagging again, the outter thighs get wider, etc.
So please, think of what realistic goals you have.2 -
JerSchmare wrote: »
Um, this is exactly what I was talking about? The quality of most of the pictures is poor and I didn't go though all of the 115 pages, but what I saw didn't motivate me. Most of the women have very pronounced muscles, many have "curves". I think there's a certain assumption about how the women want to look, or how they should want to look, or what men like a woman to look (which I don't care about), which is so normalised that one can't imagine someone wanting a different body composition? I don't know...
Yes, I think that thread can have the opposite effect of what it was probably originally designed to do for a lot of women. I think it would be great to have a similar thread of those ladies in relaxed poses like what you posted above so that posters like you would not be afraid of lifting. I would say that if the lady from your pics were to flex, she would definitely have visible muscles. In fact, you can see a pretty defined back and arms already (especially the bottom photo). Very few women have visible muscle definition relaxed unless they are very, very lean.
Anyway, OP - I think you would be fine with body weight exercises and a deficit. You can gain a lot of strength without bulk doing calisthenics. I think a pair of rings is all you need for upper body training. Get some bands for lower body.
Edit - also, if you don't want visible musculature, shoot for keeping your BF in the low to mid-20's.2 -
rainbowbow wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I see a lot of good discussion here but I'm curious since I haven't seen any recommendations for New Rules of Lifting For Women. Has this program gone out of style as a general introductory program for women?
I think the program itself is fine, but misaligned with what OP wants to acheive (which is essentially, a "waifish" physique). Other than that the program is kind of tedious to complete, requires a ton of equipment in supersets that can't actually be done in most gym settings, and takes quite some time to complete (about an hour per workout). I find that the book itself is helpful more-so for individuals who need the mental shift that "lifting weights won't make you look like arnold", but i'm finding less and less people who believe that to be the case anyway. For those reasons alone i generally don't recommend it.
The authors of New Rules of Lifting For Women released a newer book/program a couple years ago that, in my opinion, is a much better beginner program. The new book, Strong, really improves upon a lot of the criticism that @rainbowbow mentions here.0 -
mom23mangos wrote: »JerSchmare wrote: »
Um, this is exactly what I was talking about? The quality of most of the pictures is poor and I didn't go though all of the 115 pages, but what I saw didn't motivate me. Most of the women have very pronounced muscles, many have "curves". I think there's a certain assumption about how the women want to look, or how they should want to look, or what men like a woman to look (which I don't care about), which is so normalised that one can't imagine someone wanting a different body composition? I don't know...
Yes, I think that thread can have the opposite effect of what it was probably originally designed to do for a lot of women. I think it would be great to have a similar thread of those ladies in relaxed poses like what you posted above so that posters like you would not be afraid of lifting. I would say that if the lady from your pics were to flex, she would definitely have visible muscles. In fact, you can see a pretty defined back and arms already (especially the bottom photo). Very few women have visible muscle definition relaxed unless they are very, very lean.
Anyway, OP - I think you would be fine with body weight exercises and a deficit. You can gain a lot of strength without bulk doing calisthenics. I think a pair of rings is all you need for upper body training. Get some bands for lower body.
Edit - also, if you don't want visible musculature, shoot for keeping your BF in the low to mid-20's.
That is a great point @mom23mangos....I added my photo/results to the last page of the thread, to show what relaxed vs flexed looks like
community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/977538/halp-heavy-lifting-made-me-supah-bulky/p1151 -
Having defined muscles is far less about which program you choose, but rather about how lean you allow yourself to get. Get on a good, established lifting routine. Get into a small, manageable, sustainable deficit. Then be patient. When you feel yourself getting too muscular, increase cals a bit to maintenance and/or reduce (not eliminate) your lifting.1
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mom23mangos wrote: »JerSchmare wrote: »
Um, this is exactly what I was talking about? The quality of most of the pictures is poor and I didn't go though all of the 115 pages, but what I saw didn't motivate me. Most of the women have very pronounced muscles, many have "curves". I think there's a certain assumption about how the women want to look, or how they should want to look, or what men like a woman to look (which I don't care about), which is so normalised that one can't imagine someone wanting a different body composition? I don't know...
Yes, I think that thread can have the opposite effect of what it was probably originally designed to do for a lot of women. I think it would be great to have a similar thread of those ladies in relaxed poses like what you posted above so that posters like you would not be afraid of lifting. I would say that if the lady from your pics were to flex, she would definitely have visible muscles. In fact, you can see a pretty defined back and arms already (especially the bottom photo). Very few women have visible muscle definition relaxed unless they are very, very lean.
Anyway, OP - I think you would be fine with body weight exercises and a deficit. You can gain a lot of strength without bulk doing calisthenics. I think a pair of rings is all you need for upper body training. Get some bands for lower body.
Edit - also, if you don't want visible musculature, shoot for keeping your BF in the low to mid-20's.
Thanks! You know I think, it's not just that muscles are visible in my of these photos and relaxing makes them less visible. I actually didn't even use the word "bulky" in my original post, and people started explaining how lifting in itself won't make me bulky. Ok, if we actually think about the word "bulky" it doesn't necessarily means muscular, it means big. And that's how some of these women look to me, a little too big for how I'd won't to look, wether they are flexed or relaxed and whether their muscles are visible. Please, don't misunderstand me, there's nothing wrong with being big or muscular, and most of these women are in great shape and are very strong, and that's so cool! But personally I won't feel most comfortable with such physique. Despite the popular belief, not everyone wants to lose just fat, some want to lose weight in general and be a certain size.
So yeah, I'd say forget the pictures, that I posted. I'll rephrase my goals: I want to lose more weight, about 15 pounds), but I don't want to end up what they call "skinny fat". So I was wondering if lifting is necessary to avoid this, or if I'm fine with just body weight strength training to preserve the muscle mass I already have.1 -
Why not run with a bodyweight programme for a few months and then reassess.
Nerdfitness is effective, and the whole site is informative.
I did it, a dumbbell routine, then moved to a barbell.
I am not curvy at all, or bulky, and have been lifting for 2 years, with a large break last year. It takes years of dedicated lifting to reshape your body. I just lift recreationally for muscle and bone retention.
Remember, you can decide to do body weight and change to lifting, or start lifting and change to body weight or do a dumbbell routine (I've heard good things about the 'aworkoutroutine's dumbbell routine) you are not tied to either.
Cheers, h.
Here is the link again as it has the 2 programmes in that I mentioned.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p13 -
middlehaitch wrote: »Why not run with a bodyweight programme for a few months and then reassess.
Nerdfitness is effective, and the whole site is informative.
I did it, a dumbbell routine, then moved to a barbell.
I am not curvy at all, or bulky, and have been lifting for 2 years, with a large break last year. It takes years of dedicated lifting to reshape your body. I just lift recreationally for muscle and bone retention.
Remember, you can decide to do body weight and change to lifting, or start lifting and change to body weight or do a dumbbell routine (I've heard good things about the 'aworkoutroutine's dumbbell routine) you are not tied to either.
Cheers, h.
Here is the link again as it has the 2 programmes in that I mentioned.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
Yeah, you are right. Thanks again for the advice ! I'll check out those programs!0 -
When I lost weight(when I first joined mfp) and lost 40 lbs, I was doing 30 Day Shred, Ripped in 30, The Firm super cardio mix, Denise Austin Boot Camp...all workouts with light dumbbells and body weight plus cardio. Yes, I probably lost some muscle along the way(especially since I lost very quickly) but I did not end up skinny fat at all. I was pretty skinny though, and my butt "fell", but I was also pretty ripped in the upper body. I was not curvy because my body isn't really shaped that way when I strip off the excess fat. I've been lifting for a few years now, trying to build the booty back up, but it doesn't come quickly. I've gained around 6-7 lbs from my low weight, but not bulky or even what most would consider curvy.2
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