MFP database is a minefield :'(

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boomerising
boomerising Posts: 43 Member
in Motivation and Support
And now the USDA has announced it is shutting down Supertracker, including the relatively reliable Food-a-pedia, in June. (Don't ask why. You *know* why. No politics please.)

I've been back at this three weeks, after a three-year hiatus during which I maintained with exercise and mindfulness until fourth quarter '17 when life exceeded my stress limit and I put on about 7 lb. I'm already tearing my hair out. I can't have this program dictate what I eat (e.g. things with nutrition labels, same things over and over) or sentence me to never eating out again. And I can't tolerate feeling that my days revolve around it. I'm 65 years old for godsake. That WW no-points list is looking less crazy by the minute.

Today's frustration is the chili-cheddar omelette I ate yesterday at a diner-type place before an early medical appointment. Have you looked up "cheese omelette"? Much less "chili cheese omelette"? Might as well roll dice. The range of calorie counts is absurd. If I'd made it myself I'd have a somewhat better handle on how to guesstimate, but it would still be a guesstimate. (Yes, I know I can break it down into components and that's what I'll probably do, but can you say "time sink"?) And there isn't much margin for erroneous guesstimates in a calorie-counting approach to weight loss, especially for smaller/older individuals. Whether or not it's the only approach that really works is beside the point, for me.

I also had lunch out—a muffin at a grain-free/gluten-free/paleo hipster cafe down the street from my ophthalmologist, while waiting for my dilated pupils to recover enough for me to drive—but at least I have the calorie count they claim for the muffin (from their Web site), and it is plausibly high.

Needless to say I haven't logged yesterday's intake yet. I did go to the gym for my Tuesday workout. And then kind of undid it afterward.

Wasn't there a fairly standardized and comprehensive book of calorie counts that we used to follow back in 20th century times? Anyone remember the name of it?

I salute everyone here who has figured out how to overcome these hassles while maintaining a healthful diet and a balanced life. :)

I do feel a tad better after writing this :) so thank you to anyone who has read this far. Since it has been kind of a ramblin' rant, all responses will be considered relevant, subject to basic standards of civility and thoughtfulness :)
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Replies

  • ZombieKillaPrincess
    ZombieKillaPrincess Posts: 404 Member
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    Unfortunately there are soooo many places you can buy a cheese omelette or any other food item and therefore many variations. How many eggs were used? What size eggs? How much cheese? 1/4 cup is a big diff from 1 cup.

    The best thing to do it make your own or buy from a place with nutrition facts as most places now have, especially chains are usually required by law to provide nutrition facts. So if I ate a taco from Del Taco or Taco Bell, I can easily find the nutrition info online or with a MFP database search.

    If you absolutely can't find it, use your best judgment! Better than not logging at all.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    boomerising wrote: »
    And now the USDA has announced it is shutting down Supertracker, including the relatively reliable Food-a-pedia, in June. (Don't ask why. You *know* why. No politics please.)

    I've been back at this three weeks, after a three-year hiatus during which I maintained with exercise and mindfulness until fourth quarter '17 when life exceeded my stress limit and I put on about 7 lb. I'm already tearing my hair out. I can't have this program dictate what I eat (e.g. things with nutrition labels, same things over and over) or sentence me to never eating out again. And I can't tolerate feeling that my days revolve around it. I'm 65 years old for godsake. That WW no-points list is looking less crazy by the minute.

    Today's frustration is the chili-cheddar omelette I ate yesterday at a diner-type place before an early medical appointment. Have you looked up "cheese omelette"? Much less "chili cheese omelette"? Might as well roll dice. The range of calorie counts is absurd. If I'd made it myself I'd have a somewhat better handle on how to guesstimate, but it would still be a guesstimate. (Yes, I know I can break it down into components and that's what I'll probably do, but can you say "time sink"?) And there isn't much margin for erroneous guesstimates in a calorie-counting approach to weight loss, especially for smaller/older individuals. Whether or not it's the only approach that really works is beside the point, for me.

    I also had lunch out—a muffin at a grain-free/gluten-free/paleo hipster cafe down the street from my ophthalmologist, while waiting for my dilated pupils to recover enough for me to drive—but at least I have the calorie count they claim for the muffin (from their Web site), and it is plausibly high.

    Needless to say I haven't logged yesterday's intake yet. I did go to the gym for my Tuesday workout. And then kind of undid it afterward.

    Wasn't there a fairly standardized and comprehensive book of calorie counts that we used to follow back in 20th century times? Anyone remember the name of it?

    I salute everyone here who has figured out how to overcome these hassles while maintaining a healthful diet and a balanced life. :)

    I do feel a tad better after writing this :) so thank you to anyone who has read this far. Since it has been kind of a ramblin' rant, all responses will be considered relevant, subject to basic standards of civility and thoughtfulness :)

    Your cheese omelettes vary because they're just generic entries and whoever is making the cheese omelette is going to do it differently...it would be impossible to have a comprehensive, accurate calorie count for a prepared food.

    The best you can do when eating out is to find something similar from another restaurant in the database or use the entry for the restaurant you're at if they're large enough to be required to provide that information.

    This is one of the big reasons my eating out went from pretty much daily to a couple of times per month when I was losing weight...it's far more accurate and reliable to prepare your own food. You can create your recipes in the recipe builder so that you only have to weigh out or measure things and input them once.
  • kimny72
    kimny72 Posts: 16,013 Member
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    When I eat out, the first thing I do is try to find the restaurant in the database, and if not I look for a similar restaurant. The I'll pick the one closest to what I would have guessed.

    The other strategy I'll take is to deconstruct the meal in my head and log the ingredients I'd guess were in there. And I always add a tablespoon of oil or butter to be safe.

    I found it was good practice at eyeballing and I think I've gotten much better at it over time. It worked for me, but I didn't eat out often, and some of those times went to chain/fast food places that were easy to find in the database.

    There is really no appropriate situation to use a recipe-style entry like "cheese omelette" that doesn't list a restaurant name. It means some other random person logged some random thing and called it cheese omelette.

    It gets easier as you get more practice!
  • hesn92
    hesn92 Posts: 5,967 Member
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    If 10 people make a cheese omelet they would have 10 different calorie counts. When I go out to eat and the restaurant isn’t in the database or doesn’t have their nutrition info available, I find a similar restaurant with a similar menu item and use that. It’s not perfect. If you’re going to be going out to eat you have to accept that your calorie counts will not be accurate. Even if the nutrition information is available, there’s no telling whether the guy in the back making your food is using that exact amounts of each ingredient.
  • ladyhusker39
    ladyhusker39 Posts: 1,406 Member
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    kimny72 wrote: »
    When I eat out, the first thing I do is try to find the restaurant in the database, and if not I look for a similar restaurant. The I'll pick the one closest to what I would have guessed.

    The other strategy I'll take is to deconstruct the meal in my head and log the ingredients I'd guess were in there. And I always add a tablespoon of oil or butter to be safe.

    I found it was good practice at eyeballing and I think I've gotten much better at it over time. It worked for me, but I didn't eat out often, and some of those times went to chain/fast food places that were easy to find in the database.

    There is really no appropriate situation to use a recipe-style entry like "cheese omelette" that doesn't list a restaurant name. It means some other random person logged some random thing and called it cheese omelette.

    It gets easier as you get more practice!

    I enjoy eating out and have no plans to stop doing it, so from the start I committed to learning how to guesstimate the calories in meals that didn't have nutrition info. This strategy has worked better than anything else I have tried. I'm certain that I'm not 100% accurate on any day ever. However, when I do this and keep track of my weight using a trending app, I have found I'm able to lose weight the way I want to.

    Since my plan is to be able to maintain my weight once I reach goal and I know I will never stop eating out, this strategy has served me well. It also has the side effect of forcing me to focus on the long term instead of getting lost or discouraged with the day-to-day fluctuations.
  • boomerising
    boomerising Posts: 43 Member
    edited February 2018
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    Thanks everyone for your thoughts along this rocky road. I need to read more of the wealth of posts here to learn how members are keeping their journeys moving forward when the winds of discontent are blowing every which way. For me I think there may have to be one day a week of rest from the food diary. I’m taking that for Wednesday after spending a lot of that day struggling to finish the journal for Tuesday (the doc-appointment day).

    I do understand the reasons for disparity in calorie counts for an item as vague, complex and variable-by-source as “chili cheese omelette,” but I still find the width of the disparity distressing. Some of the high and low values I found were just plain ridiculous. I wound up accepting a value for “cheese omelette” that I found plausible and then adding a value for 1/2 cup of “chili with beef and beans” for a total of 400 calories.

    I know the restaurant business has become quite chain-ified in the last couple of decades but I don’t trust that model and it’s not my style. I prefer to take my chances on local independent eateries (fortunately I live in an area where there are still a lot of them). I cannot conceive of choosing a restaurant based on whether or not they provide nutrition info. As counseled by several who replied here, I do in fact make my own food most of the time—due to intolerance of certain ingredients, health and food-safety concerns, price sensitivity, shyness (as an older single woman in restaurants) and just plain pickiness. A longstanding habit that has nothing to do with weight-loss strategy, in other words. My meals out are almost always the diner-brunch indulgence (hey, I’m a Jersey girl) or from the food bars at one particular local supermarket that has been a trusted food source for me since the 1980s. On days of high inconvenience like Tuesday, it’s inevitable that I’ll have at least one meal at a restaurant, cafe or food market. I see great ideas from bloggers nowadays about how to always have your own good food handy, like those Mason jar salads featured in MFP’s blog the other day. But eating a meal in my car or my doctor’s waiting room is unseemly, bad for digestion, and no fun. :)

    @CyberTone nice of you to post those links, thanks. I did briefly explore at least a couple of those recently when I noticed the announcement from USDA and went to investigate the resources underlying Food-a-pedia. I remember being underwhelmed by what they were calling “searchable,” but I didn’t approach it with a lot of patience that day. Who knows, maybe I will get motivated enough to download the data and refresh myself with Excel. :D
  • livingleanlivingclean
    livingleanlivingclean Posts: 11,752 Member
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    Chains aren't such a big thing where I am, there are still a lot of individual cafe's/restaurants where nutrition information isn't available. I prefer to eat at these, and rarely go to chains.

    I agree that it can be difficult to track at these places - even your old school calorie counting book would have been useless in these situations. I have a couple of options when eating out at places like these: overestimate, make my best guess, or not worry about logging so much (make a smart choice, or not so good choice, whatever I feel like)... Or, if I'm at a stage where I'm trying to be more accurate, I'll order food that is trackable. Poached eggs, grilled tomato, avocado, spinach, toast etc for breakfast. A simple salad, dressing on the side, chicken breast added or poached eggs. A plain steak with steamed vegies, or salad etc.

    I've learnt to ask questions, make changes and ask for alternatives - it helps you make more informed choices, and eat a meal you know will fit your goals.
  • theabsentmindednurse
    theabsentmindednurse Posts: 405 Member
    edited February 2018
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    I ask the wait staff a lot of questions regard ingredients.

    I find the generic version in the app, than add the “Extras”.
    Cheese, dressing, salads, bread and so on.
    It is best to over estimate.
    Try not to stress. It does get easier the more you use the app and the more confident you feel.
    You will get there.
  • AllSpiceNice
    AllSpiceNice Posts: 120 Member
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    Even if you don’t want to eat at chain restaurants (I feel the same!) looking online at their nutritional data for similar items can be helpful. Because I’m telling you, it’s highly unlikely that chili cheese omelette was only 400 Cals - 600 easy and maybe even higher.

    3 egg omelette are the norm - 70 Cals per egg for 210 Cals. Then a minimum of 2 oz of cheddar or other full fat cheese - 4 oz is also easily possible. That’s 220-440 Cals in cheese alone. Another 100 Cals for the chili is possible. But most diners cook their egg dishes in a LOT of oil or margarine...another 60-120 Cals right there.

    I travel a lot for work and thought I’d be able to go lo-cal ordering egg dishes too! But it always shocked me when I would see the calorie count in something as innocent as a veggie omelette- LOL.

    Moral of the story - unless a restaurant is advertising an egg dish as low cal and lists the ingredients/calorie count along with it, you need to estimate very high.

    Good luck - with some practice you’ll definitely be able to work your local dining options into your nutritional goals! :-)

    quote="boomerising;c-41385195"]Thanks everyone for your thoughts along this rocky road. I need to read more of the wealth of posts here to learn how members are keeping their journeys moving forward when the winds of discontent are blowing every which way. For me I think there may have to be one day a week of rest from the food diary. I’m taking that for Wednesday after spending a lot of that day struggling to finish the journal for Tuesday (the doc-appointment day).

    I do understand the reasons for disparity in calorie counts for an item as vague, complex and variable-by-source as “chili cheese omelette,” but I still find the width of the disparity distressing. Some of the high and low values I found were just plain ridiculous. I wound up accepting a value for “cheese omelette” that I found plausible and then adding a value for 1/2 cup of “chili with beef and beans” for a total of 400 calories.

    I know the restaurant business has become quite chain-ified in the last couple of decades but I don’t trust that model and it’s not my style. I prefer to take my chances on local independent eateries (fortunately I live in an area where there are still a lot of them). I cannot conceive of choosing a restaurant based on whether or not they provide nutrition info. As counseled by several who replied here, I do in fact make my own food most of the time—due to intolerance of certain ingredients, health and food-safety concerns, price sensitivity, shyness (as an older single woman in restaurants) and just plain pickiness. A longstanding habit that has nothing to do with weight-loss strategy, in other words. My meals out are almost always the diner-brunch indulgence (hey, I’m a Jersey girl) or from the food bars at one particular local supermarket that has been a trusted food source for me since the 1980s. On days of high inconvenience like Tuesday, it’s inevitable that I’ll have at least one meal at a restaurant, cafe or food market. I see great ideas from bloggers nowadays about how to always have your own good food handy, like those Mason jar salads featured in MFP’s blog the other day. But eating a meal in my car or my doctor’s waiting room is unseemly, bad for digestion, and no fun. :)

    @CyberTone nice of you to post those links, thanks. I did briefly explore at least a couple of those recently when I noticed the announcement from USDA and went to investigate the resources underlying Food-a-pedia. I remember being underwhelmed by what they were calling “searchable,” but I didn’t approach it with a lot of patience that day. Who knows, maybe I will get motivated enough to download the data and refresh myself with Excel. :D [/quote]

  • boomerising
    boomerising Posts: 43 Member
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    Keep in mind that the writer of a post like mine knows best exactly what she ate, based on the appearance and flavor of the food and the degree of satiety after eating it. And that everybody who’s ever counted calories for more than a week knows the number of calories in an egg. ;)

    I put plenty of thought into this, believe me. I overthink most of what I do. :D I agree that we must assume at least 3 eggs in any diner omelette, and the value I took from the database for cheese omelette (280) was described as being for a 3-large-egg cheddar omelette. But this diner’s chili-cheddar omelette is relatively small and quite thin (one of the reasons I like it is that they do not overload either the cheese or the chili). I very seriously doubt it contains 2 ounces of cheddar, certainly not 4 ounces. For the chili I used a value of 120 calories for half a cup, attributed to Trader Joe’s, and I thought half a cup was a generous estimate. The one thing I will concede to your criticism is that I have no way of knowing how much griddle grease the omelette contained. To offset that somewhat I erred on the high side estimating the half-portion of grits with butter that I had with it. (I was quite proud of myself for not finishing those grits.)

    As I continue to get back into this, obviously it will get somewhat easier. Whether it gets “enough easier” remains to be seen. I wasn’t born yesterday (1952 to be exact) and calorie counting is not new. I wish it were. My mother panicked when I started to chub up around age 8 or 9, and she became a total PITA about my after-school snacks. She would freak out when she saw my little hands in the bread drawer. Took me decades to accept the wisdom of her extreme concern (whether or not she expressed it effectively is another matter). After years of observation and reading I am convinced that excess weight in childhood almost invariably dooms the individual to a lifelong battle with weight and food.

    The chili cheese omelette at this particular diner is superbly done, and is THE local special treat for me. I indulge in it, on average, once a month, being well aware that it is not a “lo-cal” food. I did so very consciously on that particular day because I knew I needed substantial fuel (i.e. protein and fat) to get through a medical examination of uncertain duration with uncertain food resources nearby. Next time I will revisit my estimate, but I don’t think it’s wildly off.

    As a general observation here I note that replies have focused almost entirely on the issue of eating out. That is only one facet of the difficulty of doing this. And as I tried to make clear, it is a relatively small facet for me. Home-prepared food poses its own challenges; anything without a nutrition label does. For instance I just had 2-1/2 ounces of tuna for breakfast. It was oil packed, because that’s how it tastes best to me. But I rinsed it quite thoroughly in a strainer. So how many calories do I ascribe to the rinsed tuna? I’m about to dip into the database and see if it has anything that matches that description well enough to use as a formula. Chances are, it won’t. Puzzles like that come up every day. It gets tedious. And eating the same thing day after day is not the solution. Variety is health-protective in nutrition, in my opinion. I am building my own little index card “database,” which will help me more as it grows but I know will never eliminate the uncertainties.

    Trotting out a 20th-century cliche here, the proof is in the pudding. After an initial quick drop in my weight I am going backward, so there is tweaking and reckoning to be done :) . Not to worry, I know what the contributing factors are. It’s up to me to conquer them.

    One of my favorite things in the MFP blog so far was a video featuring a young man who runs a gym, because of his theme: “How bad do you want it?” That, indeed, is the main question.


  • boomerising
    boomerising Posts: 43 Member
    edited February 2018
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    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    I'd personally just use the calories listed on the can.
    I wouldn't sweat it so much if the component reduced by rinsing were anything other than oil, which is the most calorie-dense thing on the planet. I'm trying to adhere to 1430 kcal/d, and at that level, overestimating can pretty quickly leave you with nothing in the bank by 5:00 or so—which for me tends to trigger the "fukital" response.
    It's as tedious as you want to make it.
    I'll resist reading a put-down into that sentence :)

    Follow-up: You’re right, in the sense it’s not that big a deal in this instance. The jar says 90 calories for 2 oz, including 20 calories from fat. So I’m just going to call it 90 for 2-1/2 oz. I think that’s in the “close enough” zone and as you basically said, that’s about as good as it gets in this game.
  • AllSpiceNice
    AllSpiceNice Posts: 120 Member
    edited February 2018
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    Not attempting to criticize OP - you’re right that I wasn’t there to see the chili cheese omelette. But respectfully speaking..I have worked in food service and checked out the nutritional info at a lot of restaurants. Traditional Diner omelettes are calorie bombs and I have never seen one come in at less than 600 Cals, unless it was specifically designed and advertised as a low-cal menu item. Cheese goes inside and on top of most omelettes and 2 oz of shredded cheese is actually a very conservative estimate.

    Of course, nothing wrong with treating yourself to a delicious calorie bomb once in awhile, I do it too. But if you are getting frustrated with accurately tracking calories, or are not losing weight to plan, you may want to more closely analyze your restaurant meals.

    Best of luck to you!
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    boomerising wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    I'd personally just use the calories listed on the can.
    I wouldn't sweat it so much if the component reduced by rinsing were anything other than oil, which is the most calorie-dense thing on the planet. I'm trying to adhere to 1430 kcal/d, and at that level, overestimating can pretty quickly leave you with nothing in the bank by 5:00 or so—which for me tends to trigger the "fukital" response.
    It's as tedious as you want to make it.
    I'll resist reading a put-down into that sentence :)

    Follow-up: You’re right, in the sense it’s not that big a deal in this instance. The jar says 90 calories for 2 oz, including 20 calories from fat. So I’m just going to call it 90 for 2-1/2 oz. I think that’s in the “close enough” zone and as you basically said, that’s about as good as it gets in this game.

    Wasn't a put down...I was using the "royal" you...people can indeed make things very tedious by trying to be exact with an inexact process.
  • wizzybeth
    wizzybeth Posts: 3,573 Member
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    Is the USDA Nutritional Database remaining intact though? Will that still be available?
  • DX2JX2
    DX2JX2 Posts: 1,921 Member
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    For an entree or main dish-sized portion at a restaurant, I will generally use 800 calories as a generic estimate unless it contains massive calorie bomb items (fried foods, etc.).

    For a generic diner-sized omelette: 210 calories for three eggs. 200 calories for 2 ounces of cheese cheese, 200 calories for 1 cup of chili and 200 calories for 2 tablespoons of cooking oil. Toast or home fries are extra.

    Boom 800 calories and I bet the guess isn't far enough off to make a real difference to your results.
  • CyberTone
    CyberTone Posts: 7,337 Member
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    boomerising wrote: »
    For instance I just had 2-1/2 ounces of tuna for breakfast. It was oil packed, because that’s how it tastes best to me. But I rinsed it quite thoroughly in a strainer. So how many calories do I ascribe to the rinsed tuna? I’m about to dip into the database and see if it has anything that matches that description well enough to use as a formula. Chances are, it won’t. Puzzles like that come up every day. It gets tedious.

    I tend to overthink things myself. Here is how I would approach this being as meticulous as I can given the constraints of a rather clunky database.

    I use the web version mostly to log food, but I do use the mobile app to scan barcodes and copy multiple food entries from previous days (I can multi-select and copy on the MFP mobile app which I can't do on the web version). The web version makes research and logging this easier.

    Open new tab in browser. Use the USDA database, search for "tuna drained oil." Choose the one in oil. Open second tab, search for "tuna drained water," choose the one in water. Note the reference serving size is 3.0 ounces. Enter 2.5 oz and tab out of field to refresh web page to provide Cals and macros for that amount. Compare macros, both protein and fat, for 2.5 oz serving size. Note difference in fat (5.72 - 2.10 = 3.62g) is 3.62g x 9 Cals/g = 33 Cals.

    Copy the USDA record name "Fish, tuna, white, canned in oil, drained solids" and paste into MFP Add Food search. Choose the green checked record that MFP imported from USDA database. Add 2.5 oz to MFP meal slot.

    Search MFP for "oil vegetable canola." Choose the green checked record that MFP imported from USDA database. Add -3.6ml [negative sign can only be used on web version] quantity, which will subtract Cals and macros from Diary.

    You now have two food items in MFP that will be displayed in the Recent list query the next time you want to log those.


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  • Crafty_camper123
    Crafty_camper123 Posts: 1,440 Member
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    I just try to log everything as best as I can. I over-estimate frequently if I cant scan a barcode, unless it's a whole food item such as eggs, fruits, vegetables. For example, there is this local 24hr Mexican restaurant we eat at a lot. There is no chain that I am aware of that even compares to the burritos they serve. And, their size and contents vary depending on who is in the kitchen. Therefore, I pick either the highest/ second highest entry and run with it. Even if it sounds alarmingly high. When I cook at home, I tend to cook things from scratch, so I use the recipe builder when I can, and scan barcodes where I can. For things where I might drain off some grease, or pick something out I still log it as normal. I figure with some things being overestimated, and some being under things will even out. The rest I try to look for the green check mark entries. My goal is currently around 1450 cal a day, so I can see the frustration at figuring out you're at 1500cal by 5 pm when over-estimating those entries, and there is still dinner to be eaten! My current strategy for this is to figure out what my maintenance cals are (1650, roundabouts) and I try to stay within +/- 100 cals of goal and maintenance. So, I shoot between 1350-1750 a day. This prevents me from getting as frustrated with myself for going over that 1400 mark. I figure if I'm at or below maintenance every day, I should start to see a downward trend. On days when I've reached calorie goal before dinner time, I just eat what want because I know I'll be hangy if I don't, and try to plan better the next day.

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