Difference between training at % of 1RM and something like 5x5 progression

LJay89 wrote: »

So I am wondering what the difference between working at percentage of your 1rm as opposed to working on something like SL 5x5, for a novice lifter?

The biggest issue as a novice lifter, is that unless you're coming off an injury and are actually not a novice lifter, your 1RM isn't actually your 1RM. And even if you are experienced, you're still going to go through many of the same biomechanical and Neuromuscular learning/adaptions as a new lifter.

I'm going through this right now, coming back from a long layoff and working towards new goals. So find a good starting/working weight, and follow the program/progression.

LJay89 wrote: »

stanmann571 wrote: »

LJay89 wrote: »

So I am wondering what the difference between working at percentage of your 1rm as opposed to working on something like SL 5x5, for a novice lifter?

The biggest issue as a novice lifter, is that unless you're coming off an injury and are actually not a novice lifter, your 1RM isn't actually your 1RM. And even if you are experienced, you're still going to go through many of the same biomechanical and Neuromuscular learning/adaptions as a new lifter.

I'm going through this right now, coming back from a long layoff and working towards new goals. So find a good starting/working weight, and follow the program/progression.

Thanks. Could you not argue though that your 1rm at that point would still be max effort? So programming from 1 % of that would still be effective in helping you develop strength?

No, because any programming that is based on 1rm is generally NOT going to be progressing as fast as you need to or more accurately speaking as fast as your muscles/CNS are adapting to the weight.

You certainly could use such a program, but you won't progress as quickly as you could.

That's also why you can't run a novice program indefinitely. You've won all your Neuro/adaptation gains and now you're actually having to build muscle.

Essentially on a novice program your body is learning to do the various presses and pulls and so the purpose of the program and volume is to efficiently and correctly work through that learning process quickly and safely so that you can proceed to building muscle. That's not to say that you won't build *some* muscle on a novice program, just that more than 50% of your gains are not from building muscle. As contrasted with an intermediate program where 90%+ of your gains are muscle or an advanced/pro/competition program where 100% of your gains are from new muscle.

jjpptt2 wrote: »

I haven't done beginner 5x5 in several years, so I'm going from distant memory here...

IMO, the biggest difference is one of philosophy and goals, not so much simple gains. Beginner 5x5 programs are great, in large part, because they start you off easy and allow you to grow into the program. So the program grows with you as you do (i.e the weights get heavier as you get better at the lifts and as you become more conditioned to training).

Additionally, as stanman eluded to (I think this was one of his points).. as a novice lifter, you have no idea what your 1RM is and anything that seems like a 1RM based on actual 1RM testing will likely change pretty quickly.

Yes as a novice , You could do a 85 or 95% 6 or 8 singles and 2-3 days later add 10 lbs and do it again. And repeat the progression for several weeks. You wouldn't get the experience and volume that a true novice needs, but you'd certainly progress effectively for a while.

Beginner programs don't use a 1RM because for beginners your 1RM changes too frequently. As you acclimate to the various squat/hinge/pressing/rowing movements you become much more efficient at using the muscle you already have.

Frankly, most beginners (unless previously trained) are unable to stress their muscles adequately to cause enough damage to warrant super compensation and growth. LBM gained during this period is mostly intramuscular water/glycogen retention to facilitate further training.

As previously mentioned, beginner programs progress faster than say intermediate and advanced programs because you can. The problem with using % based work is that 1RM (or any rep max) changes so frequently.

However, adding in some autoregulation would be an alternative method for beginners to progress.

Example: say you're doing 3x6 on bench, do 2x6 and an AMRAP on the 3rd set, stopping at technical failure (not muscular failure). Based on the number of reps you adjust the weight for the next training session. Say you got 6-8 reps, you'd add 5 lbs next session, 8+ add 10 lbs, less than 6 you reduce the load by 10 lbs. Something like that

As noted above, you can't do a 1RM program effectively unless you already know what your 1RM is but, if you're a newbie, your 1RM is constantly changing so, and isn't firmly established. So, it makes no sense to base your lifts on a 1RM% if you are a newbie.

Novice programs like Stronglifts 5x5 and Starting Strength 3x5 are actually designed to help you reach your newbie level 1RM as quickly as possible, usually w/in 4-6 months, when you will plateau and have achieved all (or most) of the easy newbie gains possible w/such programs.

It is at this point that you can then switch to an intermediate program that incorporates a 1RM% approach, which will then be more effective to achieve further gains, if that is your objective.

LJay89 wrote: »

Thanks. Could you not argue though that your 1rm at that point would still be max effort? So programming from 1 % of that would still be effective in helping you develop strength?

first off, any programming that follows the basic precepts of good form, do-able weight, progressive overload and consistency is going to help you to develop strength. doesn't matter if it's a fixed-progression like 5x5 or something percentage-driven.

therefore and secondly, i'm not sure what you're asking about. do you mean literally one percent of your 1xmax? or just 'any' percentage of it.

i'll assume it's the latter since training with one percent would make about no percent sense. but if i assume that , then your question is sort of meaningless - at least to me. here's why: 20% of your 1-rep max would let you perform significantly more reps than you could do with 90%. and at 20% you would NEED to perform more reps in order to get the effect. so, again: it's not clear what you're asking about.

perhaps you could clarify a little more/ i get the impression there's somethign you want to do and you're sort of asking for tacit 'permission' to go ahead, but it's kind of hard for peopel to give an opinion when they don't know what they're giving it on.

fwiw: 'percentage' programmes that i've used myself are wendler 5/3/1 and recently doug hepburn's 'solution' which is based on an EIGHT rep max and has plenty of volume to it. so if you're really hipped on the idea of a max as a new lifter for some reason, then i guess my suggestion would be that you check out hepburn. if you just want to go heavy as fast as you can, then i'll line myself up alongside all the people who've been saying you shouldn't cheat yourself out of the chance to learn form via a higher rep count.

disclaimer: i don't know nothing, officially. just another random person who spends some of their tiem at the gym.