Running and 1/2 marathon training
reginakarl
Posts: 68 Member
I'm part of a running group and I run slower at 11 minute mile. I'm doing a Hal Higdon plan and today was a 7 mile run.
With my long Saturday runs, my running partners go for about 3 miles. We stop and have coffee at the cafe for 30 minutes.
I then take off by myself and run the last 4 miles.
I really like the social aspect of running. But, am I doing a disservice to my plan by doing a split training session? I've never run a 1/2 marathon prior and the longest distance I've run prior was 10 miles.
Thank you!
With my long Saturday runs, my running partners go for about 3 miles. We stop and have coffee at the cafe for 30 minutes.
I then take off by myself and run the last 4 miles.
I really like the social aspect of running. But, am I doing a disservice to my plan by doing a split training session? I've never run a 1/2 marathon prior and the longest distance I've run prior was 10 miles.
Thank you!
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Replies
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You're not getting the same benefit from 2 shorter runs as you would from the full 7-miler. Is Saturday the only day you run with the group? Perhaps you could do a solo run that one day if no one wants to join you. From what I've heard, if you can do 10 miles, the half will be very doable for you.3
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reginakarl wrote: »I'm part of a running group and I run slower at 11 minute mile. I'm doing a Hal Higdon plan and today was a 7 mile run.
With my long Saturday runs, my running partners go for about 3 miles. We stop and have coffee at the cafe for 30 minutes.
I then take off by myself and run the last 4 miles.
I really like the social aspect of running. But, am I doing a disservice to my plan by doing a split training session? I've never run a 1/2 marathon prior and the longest distance I've run prior was 10 miles.
Thank you!
I would suggest running your so miles before you meet up, then finish at the café.
You'll get much more aerobic endurance benefit.7 -
If you can do 10 miles, you can do the half.
But I agree, doing the long run in one go will be a lot more beneficial than your current routine3 -
I mean, there's no harm to it -- but unless you plan on taking an extended break at the half, you're not really training yourself to do that endurance similar to the actual conditions.
Can you do the seven miles, and then meet the group?
I wouldn't want to do all seven miles *after* coffee, but that's just my GI system talking.3 -
Thank you! I appreciate it0
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Any chance you can get in your extra miles prior to meeting up with your friend? That would be ideal. I’m at the end of marathon training and have done my best to not split long runs. I’d try my best to not make it a habit. Your body needs to get used to staying it’s feet for that longer mileage.1
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The long run is a key part of your training. You won't get the benefit if you split it.
Word of advice - if your goal is just to finish the HM regardless of pace, then a couple of 10 mile long runs during training will be more than enough to allow you to achieve that goal. It'll be a little tough for the last couple of miles but you'll be fine. No need to run the full 13 beforehand.
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).3 -
The long run is a key part of your training. You won't get the benefit if you split it.
Word of advice - if your goal is just to finish the HM regardless of pace, then a couple of 10 mile long runs during training will be more than enough to allow you to achieve that goal. It'll be a little tough for the last couple of miles but you'll be fine. No need to run the full 13 beforehand.
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
i would disagree with 'got to' run 13 miles prior to the race.
i race to half marathon distance. i only run 13.1 miles when i race it. i am fine with training runs to 12 miles.4 -
Are you doing yourself a disservice? Yes. How significant that disservice is depends on your goals/expectations on race day. The training impact of 1 long run is different than that of 2 short runs. Given that the 2 short runs are only separated by 30 minutes or so, I don't think the reduced training impact is hugely significant, but again... goals/expectations.
On a side note...
The biggest benefit to running 13 miles during training is the mental aspect of doing so - of knowing you can do it, of knowing how you'll feel, etc. To some extent, you'll get a more complete sense of fueling, too... but you don't HAVE to have training runs of 13 miles in order to race 13 miles.2 -
TavistockToad wrote: »The long run is a key part of your training. You won't get the benefit if you split it.
Word of advice - if your goal is just to finish the HM regardless of pace, then a couple of 10 mile long runs during training will be more than enough to allow you to achieve that goal. It'll be a little tough for the last couple of miles but you'll be fine. No need to run the full 13 beforehand.
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
i would disagree with 'got to' run 13 miles prior to the race.
i race to half marathon distance. i only run 13.1 miles when i race it. i am fine with training runs to 12 miles.
For a first time half marathoner who is going to target to finish the race at a pace above easy, I would argue that it's critical to run an entire 13 beforehand in order to judge pacing strategy and to confirm that the target is in a reasonable range for the distance. With a longest run of 10 miles at 100% easy pace, you're simply asking for trouble by trying to 1.) set a personal mileage best and 2.) set a personal best for pace at the same time.
I wouldn't disagree that the person will be able to physically finish the race with a long run in that range, it's more a matter of how much pain they'll feel at the end, if they'll have to stop and walk/rest during the race, their risk of injury/strain, and most importantly, how much they'll enjoy it.1 -
ehhh, i've never run a full 13 miles pre half-marathon (UNLESS it occurred as part of my marathon training) and i've never run a full 26 prior to my marathons (I cap at about 2-3 19 milers)4
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TavistockToad wrote: »The long run is a key part of your training. You won't get the benefit if you split it.
Word of advice - if your goal is just to finish the HM regardless of pace, then a couple of 10 mile long runs during training will be more than enough to allow you to achieve that goal. It'll be a little tough for the last couple of miles but you'll be fine. No need to run the full 13 beforehand.
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
i would disagree with 'got to' run 13 miles prior to the race.
i race to half marathon distance. i only run 13.1 miles when i race it. i am fine with training runs to 12 miles.
For a first time half marathoner who is going to target to finish the race at a pace above easy, I would argue that it's critical to run an entire 13 beforehand in order to judge pacing strategy and to confirm that the target is in a reasonable range for the distance. With a longest run of 10 miles at 100% easy pace, you're simply asking for trouble by trying to 1.) set a personal mileage best and 2.) set a personal best for pace at the same time.
I wouldn't disagree that the person will be able to physically finish the race with a long run in that range, it's more a matter of how much pain they'll feel at the end, if they'll have to stop and walk/rest during the race, their risk of injury/strain, and most importantly, how much they'll enjoy it.
Well I did all the things you have said are terrible and awful to do for my half marathon and absolutely loved it and of course it was a PB as it was the first time I had run 13.1 miles.3 -
reginakarl wrote: »I'm part of a running group and I run slower at 11 minute mile. I'm doing a Hal Higdon plan and today was a 7 mile run.
With my long Saturday runs, my running partners go for about 3 miles. We stop and have coffee at the cafe for 30 minutes.
I then take off by myself and run the last 4 miles.
I really like the social aspect of running. But, am I doing a disservice to my plan by doing a split training session? I've never run a 1/2 marathon prior and the longest distance I've run prior was 10 miles.
Thank you!
Yes...you're not getting the benefit of actually doing your long runs which are a very important aspect of your training.1 -
Another important consideration is the mental fitness part of it. Your body may be sufficiently fit to do the race but a big part of the game is mental, your body will lie to you and your brain has to be able to tell it to shut up. Doing the longer runs without stopping goes a long way to getting your confidence level up.2
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TavistockToad wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »The long run is a key part of your training. You won't get the benefit if you split it.
Word of advice - if your goal is just to finish the HM regardless of pace, then a couple of 10 mile long runs during training will be more than enough to allow you to achieve that goal. It'll be a little tough for the last couple of miles but you'll be fine. No need to run the full 13 beforehand.
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
i would disagree with 'got to' run 13 miles prior to the race.
i race to half marathon distance. i only run 13.1 miles when i race it. i am fine with training runs to 12 miles.
For a first time half marathoner who is going to target to finish the race at a pace above easy, I would argue that it's critical to run an entire 13 beforehand in order to judge pacing strategy and to confirm that the target is in a reasonable range for the distance. With a longest run of 10 miles at 100% easy pace, you're simply asking for trouble by trying to 1.) set a personal mileage best and 2.) set a personal best for pace at the same time.
I wouldn't disagree that the person will be able to physically finish the race with a long run in that range, it's more a matter of how much pain they'll feel at the end, if they'll have to stop and walk/rest during the race, their risk of injury/strain, and most importantly, how much they'll enjoy it.
Well I did all the things you have said are terrible and awful to do for my half marathon and absolutely loved it and of course it was a PB as it was the first time I had run 13.1 miles.
Did you run your first half for a certain target pace or just to complete the distance (that is, no real target time or a target that was a relative lay up relative to training times)? If the latter, then I'm absolutely agreed that there is zero need to run the full distance prior the race. Heck, you could even limit your long runs to 7 or 8 miles and still make it through.
If the former, and that target pace was aggressive vis a vis your training times, then I would say that your performance/attitude is probably more specific to your than applicable to others. Possibly a mental imbalance.
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i would add - i don't look to split a long run until i get to the 12+ mile range (i.e. i've had to run 14 in the am and then 3 at night due to work schedule) - btu that is like during peak marathon training1
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deannalfisher wrote: »ehhh, i've never run a full 13 miles pre half-marathon (UNLESS it occurred as part of my marathon training) and i've never run a full 26 prior to my marathons (I cap at about 2-3 19 milers)
I think my longest training run is 10 miles. I'm doing a Hal Higdon plan.0 -
i have done both. i did better when i trained with 13+ miles.
can i do it without, yes, but i did much better with
i also am slow 3:00:00 ish so i gel every 4 miles. i hydrate at every stop.2 -
OP are you worried that you are hurting your ultimate race pace, or that you are jeopardizing the actual ability to run the full half when the time comes? If you are worried about pace in particular, for example if you are wanting to do your ultimate best, then you will have the most accurate estimation of that by running strait through. Otherwise it will be completely fine if you are splitting it up but still getting the mileage in one day. If that’s the only day that works for you and it doesn’t ruin your motivation to take the break don’t stress over it!2
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TavistockToad wrote: »If you can do 10 miles, you can do the half.
But I agree, doing the long run in one go will be a lot more beneficial than your current routine
Once you get into the zone for running distance it gets easier to tack on. When I was gearing up, it took months to get up to running 6 miles regularly, then it took weeks to get to 10.2 -
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
Agreed. For my first half I had to run 13 miles during training. I needed to know I could do it and at the pace I wanted. The idea of running 10 miles and then still having another 30 minutes of running was pretty daunting to me.0 -
Colleen219 wrote: »
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
Agreed. For my first half I had to run 13 miles during training. I needed to know I could do it and at the pace I wanted. The idea of running 10 miles and then still having another 30 minutes of running was pretty daunting to me.
I avoided it and when I did the half, it was the fist time I ran more than 12, which I had done twice. I actually did it slightly better than my normal pace, which was 10 minute miles (2 hours to run 12), but I did the half in 2:08:25. At my normal speed, it would have been almost 4 minutes slower. Not a lot of difference, but surprised me.1 -
WickAndArtoo wrote: »OP are you worried that you are hurting your ultimate race pace, or that you are jeopardizing the actual ability to run the full half when the time comes? If you are worried about pace in particular, for example if you are wanting to do your ultimate best, then you will have the most accurate estimation of that by running strait through. Otherwise it will be completely fine if you are splitting it up but still getting the mileage in one day. If that’s the only day that works for you and it doesn’t ruin your motivation to take the break don’t stress over it!
My goal is to finish and it will be a PR for me as it's my first half. I have a feeling that I'll be doing some walking intervals during the race. Perhaps I'll be more concerned about the time for future races.
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this topic for the past few days. I can see a pattern with the logic. I did an extra mile before run club began on Wednesday. Having unbroken long runs will be better for my overall endurance training, both physically and mentally. Will I be able to finish a half with some broken up training runs? yes. But, I will be slower than my 10 mile pace. Thank you!0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »The long run is a key part of your training. You won't get the benefit if you split it.
Word of advice - if your goal is just to finish the HM regardless of pace, then a couple of 10 mile long runs during training will be more than enough to allow you to achieve that goal. It'll be a little tough for the last couple of miles but you'll be fine. No need to run the full 13 beforehand.
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
i would disagree with 'got to' run 13 miles prior to the race.
i race to half marathon distance. i only run 13.1 miles when i race it. i am fine with training runs to 12 miles.
For a first time half marathoner who is going to target to finish the race at a pace above easy, I would argue that it's critical to run an entire 13 beforehand in order to judge pacing strategy and to confirm that the target is in a reasonable range for the distance. With a longest run of 10 miles at 100% easy pace, you're simply asking for trouble by trying to 1.) set a personal mileage best and 2.) set a personal best for pace at the same time.
I wouldn't disagree that the person will be able to physically finish the race with a long run in that range, it's more a matter of how much pain they'll feel at the end, if they'll have to stop and walk/rest during the race, their risk of injury/strain, and most importantly, how much they'll enjoy it.
I hadn't run (and I use that in the loosest sense of the word as I used run/walk intervals) more than 10km before I did my first half and I finished. With my second I hadn't run more than 2km without stopping to walk and ran the first 20km. I don't know what plan the op is using but my long runs in my training plan for August are certainly not at easy pace, they're at race pace. I have never done the full distance in training for a half or above. Well I did for my last half but that was a training run for a marathon in itself.
To the op, I really wouldn't break the long runs up, you're not building the mental strength to go that little bit further without stopping and for me that's an important aspect. It would be much better to run the 4 miles beforehand and then continue on with the social 3 miles.1 -
I hadn't run (and I use that in the loosest sense of the word as I used run/walk intervals) more than 10km before I did my first half and I finished. With my second I hadn't run more than 2km without stopping to walk and ran the first 20km. I don't know what plan the op is using but my long runs in my training plan for August are certainly not at easy pace, they're at race pace. I have never done the full distance in training for a half or above. Well I did for my last half but that was a training run for a marathon in itself.
To the op, I really wouldn't break the long runs up, you're not building the mental strength to go that little bit further without stopping and for me that's an important aspect. It would be much better to run the 4 miles beforehand and then continue on with the social 3 miles.
What training plan are you using? I don't claim to be an expert on this, but the training plans that I've seen all have a weekly long run at easy pace with a distance that approaches the ultimate race distance over time. It's a common basic key to conditioning.
Race pace runs are also common, but they're usually relatively short and infrequent (for example, 10K at race pace a month in front of a half marathon). I don't think I've ever seen a plan that has you running the full race distance at race pace before the actual race itself?0 -
I hadn't run (and I use that in the loosest sense of the word as I used run/walk intervals) more than 10km before I did my first half and I finished. With my second I hadn't run more than 2km without stopping to walk and ran the first 20km. I don't know what plan the op is using but my long runs in my training plan for August are certainly not at easy pace, they're at race pace. I have never done the full distance in training for a half or above. Well I did for my last half but that was a training run for a marathon in itself.
To the op, I really wouldn't break the long runs up, you're not building the mental strength to go that little bit further without stopping and for me that's an important aspect. It would be much better to run the 4 miles beforehand and then continue on with the social 3 miles.
What training plan are you using? I don't claim to be an expert on this, but the training plans that I've seen all have a weekly long run at easy pace with a distance that approaches the ultimate race distance over time. It's a common basic key to conditioning.
Race pace runs are also common, but they're usually relatively short and infrequent (for example, 10K at race pace a month in front of a half marathon). I don't think I've ever seen a plan that has you running the full race distance at race pace before the actual race itself?
I'm using a slightly modified myasics plan. I've got it set to 2xruns a week, one shorter 7-10.5km and one longer 7-17.5km plus I do a technique session with my PT 1xweek. Only in the first couple of weeks this time round, but followed the same app for marathon training. The last 2 long runs before tapering are 17km at pace which is ever so slightly slower than race pace. Mind the MYASICS does ask me to go a lot slower than my running pace, so my PT gets me to just use it for when and how far I should be running and as we know I can already run a lot further than half distance she wants me to push pace.1 -
Colleen219 wrote: »
That said, if you have an aspiration to complete the HM at any pace above your easy run speed, you've got to do a couple of full 13 milers during your training. 13 miles at even a fairly moderate race pace is worlds different than 10 miles easy (or even 10 miles at your target HM pace).
Agreed. For my first half I had to run 13 miles during training. I needed to know I could do it and at the pace I wanted. The idea of running 10 miles and then still having another 30 minutes of running was pretty daunting to me.
I was the same way. I needed to know that I could do it, and that I could do it at the max time (or under) for the half I was racing.
I now stick to 10 miles in training runs, but for that very first time, I needed to know that it was something I could absolutely do. (My dietitian joked that well, OK then, I'd actually run *two* half marathons in less than six months.)1 -
I'm using a slightly modified myasics plan. I've got it set to 2xruns a week, one shorter 7-10.5km and one longer 7-17.5km plus I do a technique session with my PT 1xweek. Only in the first couple of weeks this time round, but followed the same app for marathon training. The last 2 long runs before tapering are 17km at pace which is ever so slightly slower than race pace. Mind the MYASICS does ask me to go a lot slower than my running pace, so my PT gets me to just use it for when and how far I should be running and as we know I can already run a lot further than half distance she wants me to push pace.
That plan seems so terribly odd to me. I would venture a guess that it's an exception rather than the rule but if it works for you, it works for you. I guess experienced runners can get by with that kind of mileage if they already have the legs/conditioning for the distance and aren't looking to really push performance but wow, only two running sessions per week is nuts.0 -
For a first time half marathoner who is going to target to finish the race at a pace above easy, I would argue that it's critical to run an entire 13 beforehand in order to judge pacing strategy and to confirm that the target is in a reasonable range for the distance. With a longest run of 10 miles at 100% easy pace, you're simply asking for trouble by trying to 1.) set a personal mileage best and 2.) set a personal best for pace at the same time.
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um... both of those things kind of automatically happen at the same time. Whatever she runs is going to be a HM PR as long as she finishes. I doubt the OP is aiming to finish faster than their shorter run easy pace for a first half.
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For a first time half marathoner who is going to target to finish the race at a pace above easy, I would argue that it's critical to run an entire 13 beforehand in order to judge pacing strategy and to confirm that the target is in a reasonable range for the distance. With a longest run of 10 miles at 100% easy pace, you're simply asking for trouble by trying to 1.) set a personal mileage best and 2.) set a personal best for pace at the same time.
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um... both of those things kind of automatically happen at the same time. Whatever she runs is going to be a HM PR as long as she finishes. I doubt the OP is aiming to finish faster than their shorter run easy pace for a first half.
Many people do target to finish their first half faster than their easy run pace. Heck, if you follow a traditional training plan, finishing the distance itself can be relatively anticlimatic since your weekly long runs will already be close to that distance. Under a good HM training plan, the fact that you'll be able to physically finish the race is practically a given.
The concept that any first time through a distance is a personal best isn't wrong, but it's really just another way of saying that the priority is on physically finishing the race.1
This discussion has been closed.
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