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East Vs West in regards to fasting or Mundane vs Spiritual
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stanmann571
Posts: 5,728 Member
in Debate Club
So as to not derail the thread which sparked this thought
It has been my observation over the last 2 years or so that there is a hard and fixed gulf between two schools of thought regarding fasting.
Spiritual and Mundane/Weight loss focused.
Up front, I am not a Muslim, although I have kept Ramadan twice and have a superficial understanding of it.
Lenten threads tend towards questions like "How much weight will I lose this Lent by cutting out xxxxx?" vs Ramadan threads tending towards questions like "How do I maintain my level of training during Ramadan?"
I get IF, and how/why it works, and I'm less focused on that than on the coopting of 1/2/7 day water fasts for weight loss "Jump starts"? I don't really have a specific question, but am looking for critique/comment about how others see the synergy or lack thereof between spiritual purposes and weight loss goals.
Additionally, from the spiritual perspective, when fasting, what else do you cut out since in our culture food is not as closely tied to entertainment and aren't isn't as time consuming or centrally linked socially as they were historically.
It has been my observation over the last 2 years or so that there is a hard and fixed gulf between two schools of thought regarding fasting.
Spiritual and Mundane/Weight loss focused.
Up front, I am not a Muslim, although I have kept Ramadan twice and have a superficial understanding of it.
Lenten threads tend towards questions like "How much weight will I lose this Lent by cutting out xxxxx?" vs Ramadan threads tending towards questions like "How do I maintain my level of training during Ramadan?"
I get IF, and how/why it works, and I'm less focused on that than on the coopting of 1/2/7 day water fasts for weight loss "Jump starts"? I don't really have a specific question, but am looking for critique/comment about how others see the synergy or lack thereof between spiritual purposes and weight loss goals.
Additionally, from the spiritual perspective, when fasting, what else do you cut out since in our culture food is not as closely tied to entertainment and aren't isn't as time consuming or centrally linked socially as they were historically.
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Replies
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stanmann571 wrote: »So as to not derail the thread which sparked this thought
It has been my observation over the last 2 years or so that there is a hard and fixed gulf between two schools of thought regarding fasting.
Spiritual and Mundane/Weight loss focused.
Up front, I am not a Muslim, although I have kept Ramadan twice and have a superficial understanding of it.
Lenten threads tend towards questions like "How much weight will I lose this Lent by cutting out xxxxx?" vs Ramadan threads tending towards questions like "How do I maintain my level of training during Ramadan?"
I get IF, and how/why it works, and I'm less focused on that than on the coopting of 1/2/7 day water fasts for weight loss "Jump starts"? I don't really have a specific question, but am looking for critique/comment about how others see the synergy or lack thereof between spiritual purposes and weight loss goals.
Additionally, from the spiritual perspective, when fasting, what else do you cut out since in our culture food is not as closely tied to entertainment and aren't isn't as time consuming or centrally linked socially as they were historically.
Taking your last paragraph first... I was raised a Catholic, and I was taught that Lent was more about being willing to sacrifice something you enjoyed for what you believe, practicing self control, so giving up a fave treat, not eating meat on Fridays, and for some people fasting on Good Friday fit the bill. Later in my life I heard about fasting as a method to disconnect and focus on your spiritual life, and I have to admit, it was a new concept that had never occurred to me. I do know a lot of Catholics who see Lent as like a "second New Year's resolution" where they try to break a habit or lose weight.
I have never done an actual spiritual fast, but I can see how it would help you focus on your faith. I honestly think the common misunderstanding of the general population about how weight loss works leads to people assuming a 3 day water fast or giving up candy for Lent will make them lose weight. And perhaps they think because it started as a religious thing, it must be "healthy and good for you".
I've never known anyone well enough who observes Ramadan to see what the challenges and typical "results" are. But perhaps Ramadan observers typically lose weight during the month, so they don't need help with that, they just need to figure out if they can workout and if not how bad will it set them back. Whereas with Lent, it's really easy to stay full of food and workout during Lent, so folks who observe Lent are more focused on finally getting the weight loss they always assumed 40 days with no chocolate would give them?1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »So as to not derail the thread which sparked this thought
It has been my observation over the last 2 years or so that there is a hard and fixed gulf between two schools of thought regarding fasting.
Spiritual and Mundane/Weight loss focused.
Up front, I am not a Muslim, although I have kept Ramadan twice and have a superficial understanding of it.
Lenten threads tend towards questions like "How much weight will I lose this Lent by cutting out xxxxx?" vs Ramadan threads tending towards questions like "How do I maintain my level of training during Ramadan?"
I get IF, and how/why it works, and I'm less focused on that than on the coopting of 1/2/7 day water fasts for weight loss "Jump starts"? I don't really have a specific question, but am looking for critique/comment about how others see the synergy or lack thereof between spiritual purposes and weight loss goals.
Additionally, from the spiritual perspective, when fasting, what else do you cut out since in our culture food is not as closely tied to entertainment and aren't isn't as time consuming or centrally linked socially as they were historically.
Taking your last paragraph first... I was raised a Catholic, and I was taught that Lent was more about being willing to sacrifice something you enjoyed for what you believe, practicing self control, so giving up a fave treat, not eating meat on Fridays, and for some people fasting on Good Friday fit the bill. Later in my life I heard about fasting as a method to disconnect and focus on your spiritual life, and I have to admit, it was a new concept that had never occurred to me. I do know a lot of Catholics who see Lent as like a "second New Year's resolution" where they try to break a habit or lose weight.
I have never done an actual spiritual fast, but I can see how it would help you focus on your faith. I honestly think the common misunderstanding of the general population about how weight loss works leads to people assuming a 3 day water fast or giving up candy for Lent will make them lose weight. And perhaps they think because it started as a religious thing, it must be "healthy and good for you".
I've never known anyone well enough who observes Ramadan to see what the challenges and typical "results" are. But perhaps Ramadan observers typically lose weight during the month, so they don't need help with that, they just need to figure out if they can workout and if not how bad will it set them back. Whereas with Lent, it's really easy to stay full of food and workout during Lent, so folks who observe Lent are more focused on finally getting the weight loss they always assumed 40 days with no chocolate would give them?
Ramadan is a daylight fast. No food, water, sex, or smoking between dawn and dusk. And note that's dawn and dusk, not sunrise and sunset. Which is tracked centrally, and basically means that as soon as there's a sliver of change in the color of the sky, what you'd call pre-dawn, the fast begins, and only ends when there's no more light in the sky. Additionally, there are special meals in the evening/morning. It also occurs on the lunar calendar, which means it slides through the year, Usually by 10-15 days. Which also means that an August Ramadan is much harder than a February Ramadan.
Also, Thanks for the background. I grew up in an RC area, but as a Baptist, Lent never had much of an impact. OTOH, working in Afghanistan for almost 3 years(not consecutively) and working closely with the Afghan people I got to observe the impact, and twice shared in the fast with the folks I was working with.
What I noticed most was much more than when here in the states, how much more time I had.2 -
IME, Catholics don't fast for spiritual reasons, they fast (or give up/whatever) out of obligation. Most people don't understand the meaning behind it, so it's just what they do during lent. Because it has no real spiritual connection, if they can tie it to weight loss or budgeting/saving money or whatever else, then all the better.
The few people I know who are more intentional about their sacrifice... any weight loss or similar is secondary, and not usually a factor/motivation for them.
Again, based on my experiences, my upbringing, and the people I know.2 -
I have no experience with fasting for religious reasons. I have done 24-hour fasts in the past, mainly just to see if I could. It was surprisingly easy. I don't think I'd want to do more than that. I think my objection to longer-term fasts (not IF) for weight-loss 'jump starts' or 'cleanses' etc. is that I don't believe they are effective or sustainable for those ends. It's much akin to saying 'I'm going to restrict my diet to these 4 bland food from now until forever in order to meet my weight loss and maintenance goals.' It simply doesn't work.2
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stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »So as to not derail the thread which sparked this thought
It has been my observation over the last 2 years or so that there is a hard and fixed gulf between two schools of thought regarding fasting.
Spiritual and Mundane/Weight loss focused.
Up front, I am not a Muslim, although I have kept Ramadan twice and have a superficial understanding of it.
Lenten threads tend towards questions like "How much weight will I lose this Lent by cutting out xxxxx?" vs Ramadan threads tending towards questions like "How do I maintain my level of training during Ramadan?"
I get IF, and how/why it works, and I'm less focused on that than on the coopting of 1/2/7 day water fasts for weight loss "Jump starts"? I don't really have a specific question, but am looking for critique/comment about how others see the synergy or lack thereof between spiritual purposes and weight loss goals.
Additionally, from the spiritual perspective, when fasting, what else do you cut out since in our culture food is not as closely tied to entertainment and aren't isn't as time consuming or centrally linked socially as they were historically.
Taking your last paragraph first... I was raised a Catholic, and I was taught that Lent was more about being willing to sacrifice something you enjoyed for what you believe, practicing self control, so giving up a fave treat, not eating meat on Fridays, and for some people fasting on Good Friday fit the bill. Later in my life I heard about fasting as a method to disconnect and focus on your spiritual life, and I have to admit, it was a new concept that had never occurred to me. I do know a lot of Catholics who see Lent as like a "second New Year's resolution" where they try to break a habit or lose weight.
I have never done an actual spiritual fast, but I can see how it would help you focus on your faith. I honestly think the common misunderstanding of the general population about how weight loss works leads to people assuming a 3 day water fast or giving up candy for Lent will make them lose weight. And perhaps they think because it started as a religious thing, it must be "healthy and good for you".
I've never known anyone well enough who observes Ramadan to see what the challenges and typical "results" are. But perhaps Ramadan observers typically lose weight during the month, so they don't need help with that, they just need to figure out if they can workout and if not how bad will it set them back. Whereas with Lent, it's really easy to stay full of food and workout during Lent, so folks who observe Lent are more focused on finally getting the weight loss they always assumed 40 days with no chocolate would give them?
Ramadan is a daylight fast. No food, water, sex, or smoking between dawn and dusk. And note that's dawn and dusk, not sunrise and sunset. Which is tracked centrally, and basically means that as soon as there's a sliver of change in the color of the sky, what you'd call pre-dawn, the fast begins, and only ends when there's no more light in the sky. Additionally, there are special meals in the evening/morning. It also occurs on the lunar calendar, which means it slides through the year, Usually by 10-15 days. Which also means that an August Ramadan is much harder than a February Ramadan.
Also, Thanks for the background. I grew up in an RC area, but as a Baptist, Lent never had much of an impact. OTOH, working in Afghanistan for almost 3 years(not consecutively) and working closely with the Afghan people I got to observe the impact, and twice shared in the fast with the folks I was working with.
What I noticed most was much more than when here in the states, how much more time I had.
That makes sense, in a culture where food prep and meals are more time consuming and shared experiences, eliminating that would completely change your day, not so much somewhere that you are eating ready made food while you work or in front of the TV!
Where I grew up at least, Catholicism was mostly a "going through the motions" thing for most folks. Go to mass on Sunday because that's what you do, the kids go to classes to get their sacraments, because that's what you do. I didn't really know anyone in our church who really was "religious". And I went to an evangelical Christian school for awhile, but while their religion was a part of almost everything they did, there was no fasting or anything like it that I saw.
Honestly when I used to observe Lent, it would take up MORE time - lots of standing in front of the vending machine convincing myself not to get the snack I gave up. Or figuring out what I could eat on a Friday that didn't contain meat. Ironically, now that I no longer do Lent, I eat a lot more fish and meatless meals and Lenten Fridays would be a breeze
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being catholic too
we looked at it more as way to improve ourselves. not just superficial give up chocolate.
the fasting is a sacrifice and reminder of our human condition. when my stomach growls, i pray. what i pray for depends on what the focus is for that lenten season.
in general, i do my best to give up things like the "f" world, swearing in general, pessimistic thinking, sloth. etc. so i can be more the person i think my Higher Power wants me to be.
i think the difference is a cultural thing. and the ramadan fasting is a little more extreme. i think western cultures are more focused on reciprocity. if i do this, i get this. and western cultures are fitness focused. yoga classes in the suburbs vs in a town in India. lastly, i feel like the western culture has a mind body disconnect overall. try to get to do an average yoga class to savasana for more than 6 min. students cannot sit/lay still much longer than that. I've timed. at about 6 min, that's when i see the wiggling start. I digress, since there is a mind body disconnect, there seems to be less a connection between fasting and spiritual awareness
this is just from my limited experience.
i've seen more and more a push toward nonfood fasting. no social media, no texting, no elevators, no snooze buttons etc2 -
being catholic too
we looked at it more as way to improve ourselves. not just superficial give up chocolate.
the fasting is a sacrifice and reminder of our human condition. when my stomach growls, i pray. what i pray for depends on what the focus is for that lenten season.
in general, i do my best to give up things like the "f" world, swearing in general, pessimistic thinking, sloth. etc. so i can be more the person i think my Higher Power wants me to be.
i think the difference is a cultural thing. and the ramadan fasting is a little more extreme. i think western cultures are more focused on reciprocity. if i do this, i get this. and western cultures are fitness focused. yoga classes in the suburbs vs in a town in India. lastly, i feel like the western culture has a mind body disconnect overall. try to get to do an average yoga class to savasana for more than 6 min. students cannot sit/lay still much longer than that. I've timed. at about 6 min, that's when i see the wiggling start. I digress, since there is a mind body disconnect, there seems to be less a connection between fasting and spiritual awareness
this is just from my limited experience.
i've seen more and more a push toward nonfood fasting. no social media, no texting, no elevators, no snooze buttons etc
After my wife and I got married we took a 3 or 6 month TV fast. It was enlightening and incredibly challenging.2 -
One of the key differences in Eastern/Western philosophy occurred during the enlightenment period. The West discarded the spiritual element for the mental. The East incorporated the elements of questioning into the mental element, but retained the triumverate of mental, physical, and spiritual. Even a cursory review of history makes this understandable considering the lack of checks and balances.
I note that the vast majority of denominational religions few understand the whys behind belief, something distinctly different from non-denominational organizations.
The West and East being both goal oriented, but the goals are different. Eastern being long term goals generally - extending beyond this existence to the next...or the next. Western being more short term.
Personally the fasts I've gone through have been connected through martial arts with the goal being increased mind, spirit, body connection, increased awareness, etc.
From a more analytical perspective this is Pareto in practice - stripping away less useful activities and focusing on what matters.3 -
stanmann571 wrote: »So as to not derail the thread which sparked this thought
I don't have anything useful to add, but I did want to give you a non-anonymous hug for this!1 -
I have fasted for medical procedures, it totally sucks.
I did a fast once for spiritual reasons. It was a one week fast, nothing but water. It was a college elective course(yoga) and the professor convinced most of us to go along. Three days in and I almost drove my car into an overpass. Looking back on this, it was a really stupid idea.
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We have a number of friends who observe Ramadan and really enjoy the spiritual aspect of it. It is a fairly tough thing to do for anyone who is active. They often need to not participate fully or really reduce activity because the fasting time is around 3:30am to 10:00pm here. Social and daily activities often must be reduced just so they can get in a nap because sleep is quite disrupted.
I've fasted for medical reasons and out of curiosity for a few days. I regularly do IF, but that is about listening to hunger signals. If anything it negatively affects social interactions because I am not sitting down to eat breakfast and lunch with my family. I'm there but not eating.0 -
Eastern (Byzantine) Catholicism uses the same fasting protocol as Orthodox Christianity, which is very challenging and involves abstaining from certain foods specifically. And for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox there are many fast days during the year, not just during Lent. Not every Catholic is Roman Catholic.
I've fasted for religious reasons in the Byzantine tradition (not consistently) and I've fasted for weight loss reasons. I've fasted in OMAD style for weight loss (a 23 hour fast with a one hour eating window daily) and my longest stretch was for 30 consecutive days.
I'm in the habit of praying daily anyway, but during fasting for any reason, I'm too distracted with hunger to pray. I can keep my prayer discipline on track most easily with a full tummy.
I don't know how hungry people pray. Prayer itself can be arduous enough without fasting. I admire anyone who can.
I have often heard people say that fasting helps them not constantly think about what they're going to eat and instead focus on their practice. But I agree with you, when I haven't eaten in awhile I am very easily distracted and find it difficult not to think about being hungry. I usually get a headache when I'm hungry too.
The only time I was able to stick to a consistent meditation practice was right after lunch - with a full, grateful belly!1 -
Eastern (Byzantine) Catholicism uses the same fasting protocol as Orthodox Christianity, which is very challenging and involves abstaining from certain foods specifically. And for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox there are many fast days during the year, not just during Lent. Not every Catholic is Roman Catholic.
I've fasted for religious reasons in the Byzantine tradition (not consistently) and I've fasted for weight loss reasons. I've fasted in OMAD style for weight loss (a 23 hour fast with a one hour eating window daily) and my longest stretch was for 30 consecutive days.
I'm in the habit of praying daily anyway, but during fasting for any reason, I'm too distracted with hunger to pray. I can keep my prayer discipline on track most easily with a full tummy.
I don't know how hungry people pray. Prayer itself can be arduous enough without fasting. I admire anyone who can.
I have often heard people say that fasting helps them not constantly think about what they're going to eat and instead focus on their practice. But I agree with you, when I haven't eaten in awhile I am very easily distracted and find it difficult not to think about being hungry. I usually get a headache when I'm hungry too.
The only time I was able to stick to a consistent meditation practice was right after lunch - with a full, grateful belly!
For me, by the end of about the first half day, that has passed and I'm able to focus better. So really some time around the end of the second missed meal period, my body stops revolting and my mind starts to clear.1 -
Eastern (Byzantine) Catholicism uses the same fasting protocol as Orthodox Christianity, which is very challenging and involves abstaining from certain foods specifically. And for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox there are many fast days during the year, not just during Lent. Not every Catholic is Roman Catholic.
I've fasted for religious reasons in the Byzantine tradition (not consistently) and I've fasted for weight loss reasons. I've fasted in OMAD style for weight loss (a 23 hour fast with a one hour eating window daily) and my longest stretch was for 30 consecutive days.
I'm in the habit of praying daily anyway, but during fasting for any reason, I'm too distracted with hunger to pray. I can keep my prayer discipline on track most easily with a full tummy.
I don't know how hungry people pray. Prayer itself can be arduous enough without fasting. I admire anyone who can.
@newmeadow
Your invitation to the spirituality group is still open should you wish to come on over.
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stanmann571 wrote: »Eastern (Byzantine) Catholicism uses the same fasting protocol as Orthodox Christianity, which is very challenging and involves abstaining from certain foods specifically. And for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox there are many fast days during the year, not just during Lent. Not every Catholic is Roman Catholic.
I've fasted for religious reasons in the Byzantine tradition (not consistently) and I've fasted for weight loss reasons. I've fasted in OMAD style for weight loss (a 23 hour fast with a one hour eating window daily) and my longest stretch was for 30 consecutive days.
I'm in the habit of praying daily anyway, but during fasting for any reason, I'm too distracted with hunger to pray. I can keep my prayer discipline on track most easily with a full tummy.
I don't know how hungry people pray. Prayer itself can be arduous enough without fasting. I admire anyone who can.
@newmeadow
Your invitation to the spirituality group is still open should you wish to come on over.
Okay but I'm kind of a maniac. How do I sign up? I sent you a PM way back when but you couldn't receive it because of the PM glitch @ MFP
You'll fit right in.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/125560-meaning-of-life1
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