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Meta analysis- low carb ain't all it's cracked up to be!

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  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
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    Leslierussell4134 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    tennisdude2004 wrote: »
    Interesting read.

    So the conclusion is a LCHF or VLCHF diet model is just as optimal as the IIFYM diet model.

    Both getting to the final conclusion CICO from differing routes.

    It is disappointing to find out that a Low Carb diet model is ONLY as good as a IIFYM / Calorie Counting model :neutral:
    LOl

    The main benefit for low carb does seem to be that if people do not have a force calorie intake, like in a study, that the majority will tend to naturally eat less making weight loss easier and faster. No magic, just easier reduced calorie intake for most. That seems to be the overall thinking behind the lower carb groups around here too. JMO

    There are a few who seem to lose a bit faster than expected when low carb, like me, but those tend to have IR, and it is only a few pounds a year faster.

    I skimmed this article pretty quickly late last night, did I see where it looks like gaining is harder with low carbs or is that just from trying to read this too late at night? I'll have to go back and look later.... That would confirm n=1 experiments like Sam Feltham's in his smash the fat website.

    It would be interesting if they ever looked into why appetite is usually suppressed on low carb, and why some don't experience that. Is it ghrelin, leptin, ketones, absence of high carbs, presence of high fat, more protein or a protein to carbs or fat ratio, does insulin play any role or is it something else?

    Hall guessed it was the presence of ketones but that doesn't explain appetite suppression for those who are just low carb (below 100-150g) and not in ketosis at most times. I doubt it's ketones.

    The reason many people find it easier to control hunger ad litibum while following low carb is because th subsequent increase in protein and often fiber due to the restricted nature of the diet.

    On ketogenic diets, there is some evidence to suggest ketone production does correlate to hunger suppression but i am not sure that is confirmed.

    Letpin will decrease and ghrelin will increase regardless, if calories are dropped. That is why high carb refeeds are beneficial... Because a two day of carbs has been shown to normalize those levels.

    Also, there is some evidence that insulin suppresses appetite, contrary to the belief that some have.

    I believe that may be true for those who increase protein, but it does not explain those who do not increase protein. There are a number of people who make an effort to keep protein to the lower end of moderate, or even low, for various reasons (some valid, some not) yet they still experience the satiating effects of low carb. I doubt my protein is that high compared to those on a higher carb diet.

    Then there are the volume eaters who have tried keto or low carb, and said they were hungrier so they went back to more whole plants and volume for better satiation, possibly reducing protein while doing so. Who knows, perhaps their fibre is enough to compensate.

    Like protein, some increase fibre and some don't when they switch to lower carb levels. My own fibre is quite low lately yet the appetite suppressing effect is stil there (my protein is usually between 70-100g or around 20-25%).

    I've never heard it said that insulin increases hunger, unless you consider the effect BG swings may have after insulin does its job.... The hangries.

    I don't believe ketones have been confirmed as a hunger suppressor. If it had, exogenous ketones would be a LOT more popular than it is now.

    Carbs normalize leptin and ghrelin? I've not seen that. So higher carb = more stable? Do you have any sources on that?

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_vis=1&qsp=8&q=leptin+and+ghrelin+"high+carbohydrate+diet"#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=#p=RGboW2RZ3GcJ

    Kinda cool, although they did not study Ketosis in this study.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.22051
    I believe this one says exogenous ketones actually do suppress appetite. So two articles that prove both can work. Every"body" is different and it just matters what makes you feel best and what feels sustainable long term. 😎

    Your first link was to a Google scholar search. With paper were you referring to?

    Interesting on the ketones.... I'm surprised they aren't being more actively marketed as an appetite suppressor. I wonder why that is. Honest confusion there.

    This was discussed on a low carb group. It's on leptin resistance possibly being caused by elevated triglycerides, which low carb may improve, thus lowering appetite, by lowering triglycerides, often within days. I found it interesting.

    https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2007/06/17/leptin-low-carb-and-hunger/
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
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    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    tennisdude2004 wrote: »
    Interesting read.

    So the conclusion is a LCHF or VLCHF diet model is just as optimal as the IIFYM diet model.

    Both getting to the final conclusion CICO from differing routes.

    It is disappointing to find out that a Low Carb diet model is ONLY as good as a IIFYM / Calorie Counting model :neutral:
    LOl

    The main benefit for low carb does seem to be that if people do not have a force calorie intake, like in a study, that the majority will tend to naturally eat less making weight loss easier and faster. No magic, just easier reduced calorie intake for most. That seems to be the overall thinking behind the lower carb groups around here too. JMO

    There are a few who seem to lose a bit faster than expected when low carb, like me, but those tend to have IR, and it is only a few pounds a year faster.

    I skimmed this article pretty quickly late last night, did I see where it looks like gaining is harder with low carbs or is that just from trying to read this too late at night? I'll have to go back and look later.... That would confirm n=1 experiments like Sam Feltham's in his smash the fat website.

    It would be interesting if they ever looked into why appetite is usually suppressed on low carb, and why some don't experience that. Is it ghrelin, leptin, ketones, absence of high carbs, presence of high fat, more protein or a protein to carbs or fat ratio, does insulin play any role or is it something else?

    Hall guessed it was the presence of ketones but that doesn't explain appetite suppression for those who are just low carb (below 100-150g) and not in ketosis at most times. I doubt it's ketones.

    The reason many people find it easier to control hunger ad litibum while following low carb is because th subsequent increase in protein and often fiber due to the restricted nature of the diet.

    On ketogenic diets, there is some evidence to suggest ketone production does correlate to hunger suppression but i am not sure that is confirmed.

    Letpin will decrease and ghrelin will increase regardless, if calories are dropped. That is why high carb refeeds are beneficial... Because a two day of carbs has been shown to normalize those levels.

    Also, there is some evidence that insulin suppresses appetite, contrary to the belief that some have.

    I believe that may be true for those who increase protein, but it does not explain those who do not increase protein. There are a number of people who make an effort to keep protein to the lower end of moderate, or even low, for various reasons (some valid, some not) yet they still experience the satiating effects of low carb. I doubt my protein is that high compared to those on a higher carb diet.

    Then there are the volume eaters who have tried keto or low carb, and said they were hungrier so they went back to more whole plants and volume for better satiation, possibly reducing protein while doing so. Who knows, perhaps their fibre is enough to compensate.

    Like protein, some increase fibre and some don't when they switch to lower carb levels. My own fibre is quite low lately yet the appetite suppressing effect is stil there (my protein is usually between 70-100g or around 20-25%).

    I've never heard it said that insulin increases hunger, unless you consider the effect BG swings may have after insulin does its job.... The hangries.

    I don't believe ketones have been confirmed as a hunger suppressor. If it had, exogenous ketones would be a LOT more popular than it is now.

    Carbs normalize leptin and ghrelin? I've not seen that. So higher carb = more stable? Do you have any sources on that?

    There is an entire refeed thread that has all the science behind refeeds and diet breaks; it includes multiple papers and videos from some of the leading researcher with this stuff. But a well designed refeed, low fat, ultra high carb and maintenance calories will increase leptin and decrease ghrelin. It was found that those who Incorporated refeeds lost as much weight as those who didn't.

    If you really want to know the science of hormones and various diets, you should look at Lyle McDonald. He was one of the OGs involved in researching and promoting the ketogenic diet and overall has lead the way in nutritional research.


    I probably should read his stuff - I just wish he was published then the libraries in my province might actually carry his work. I'm on a budget so I don't buy many books right now, and I find his videos difficult to stay focused on.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
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    rheddmobile wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    tennisdude2004 wrote: »
    Interesting read.

    So the conclusion is a LCHF or VLCHF diet model is just as optimal as the IIFYM diet model.

    Both getting to the final conclusion CICO from differing routes.

    It is disappointing to find out that a Low Carb diet model is ONLY as good as a IIFYM / Calorie Counting model :neutral:
    LOl

    The main benefit for low carb does seem to be that if people do not have a force calorie intake, like in a study, that the majority will tend to naturally eat less making weight loss easier and faster. No magic, just easier reduced calorie intake for most. That seems to be the overall thinking behind the lower carb groups around here too. JMO

    There are a few who seem to lose a bit faster than expected when low carb, like me, but those tend to have IR, and it is only a few pounds a year faster.

    I skimmed this article pretty quickly late last night, did I see where it looks like gaining is harder with low carbs or is that just from trying to read this too late at night? I'll have to go back and look later.... That would confirm n=1 experiments like Sam Feltham's in his smash the fat website.

    It would be interesting if they ever looked into why appetite is usually suppressed on low carb, and why some don't experience that. Is it ghrelin, leptin, ketones, absence of high carbs, presence of high fat, more protein or a protein to carbs or fat ratio, does insulin play any role or is it something else?

    Hall guessed it was the presence of ketones but that doesn't explain appetite suppression for those who are just low carb (below 100-150g) and not in ketosis at most times. I doubt it's ketones.

    The reason many people find it easier to control hunger ad litibum while following low carb is because th subsequent increase in protein and often fiber due to the restricted nature of the diet.

    On ketogenic diets, there is some evidence to suggest ketone production does correlate to hunger suppression but i am not sure that is confirmed.

    Letpin will decrease and ghrelin will increase regardless, if calories are dropped. That is why high carb refeeds are beneficial... Because a two day of carbs has been shown to normalize those levels.

    Also, there is some evidence that insulin suppresses appetite, contrary to the belief that some have.

    I believe that may be true for those who increase protein, but it does not explain those who do not increase protein. There are a number of people who make an effort to keep protein to the lower end of moderate, or even low, for various reasons (some valid, some not) yet they still experience the satiating effects of low carb. I doubt my protein is that high compared to those on a higher carb diet.

    Then there are the volume eaters who have tried keto or low carb, and said they were hungrier so they went back to more whole plants and volume for better satiation, possibly reducing protein while doing so. Who knows, perhaps their fibre is enough to compensate.

    Like protein, some increase fibre and some don't when they switch to lower carb levels. My own fibre is quite low lately yet the appetite suppressing effect is stil there (my protein is usually between 70-100g or around 20-25%).

    I've never heard it said that insulin increases hunger, unless you consider the effect BG swings may have after insulin does its job.... The hangries.

    I don't believe ketones have been confirmed as a hunger suppressor. If it had, exogenous ketones would be a LOT more popular than it is now.

    Carbs normalize leptin and ghrelin? I've not seen that. So higher carb = more stable? Do you have any sources on that?

    Insulin definitely increases hunger. Ask any insulin dependent diabetic. Mental institutions in the 1930s used to use insulin injections to torture noncompliant patients by inducing severe hunger pains.


    Nasty.
  • Keto_Vampire
    Keto_Vampire Posts: 1,670 Member
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    Well let's see symptoms of hyperglycemia (low insulin) - you've got your "polys"...polydypsia, polyuria, polyphagia - "many thirst, urination, HUNGER"

    FYI, protein also stimulates an insulin response, not just "evil" carbohydrates. Just ask a type 1 diabetic what a steak does to his/her blood glucose - these people are a valuable resource in knowing the ins and outs of insulin due to the necessity to sustain life.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    tennisdude2004 wrote: »
    Interesting read.

    So the conclusion is a LCHF or VLCHF diet model is just as optimal as the IIFYM diet model.

    Both getting to the final conclusion CICO from differing routes.

    It is disappointing to find out that a Low Carb diet model is ONLY as good as a IIFYM / Calorie Counting model :neutral:
    LOl

    The main benefit for low carb does seem to be that if people do not have a force calorie intake, like in a study, that the majority will tend to naturally eat less making weight loss easier and faster. No magic, just easier reduced calorie intake for most. That seems to be the overall thinking behind the lower carb groups around here too. JMO

    There are a few who seem to lose a bit faster than expected when low carb, like me, but those tend to have IR, and it is only a few pounds a year faster.

    I skimmed this article pretty quickly late last night, did I see where it looks like gaining is harder with low carbs or is that just from trying to read this too late at night? I'll have to go back and look later.... That would confirm n=1 experiments like Sam Feltham's in his smash the fat website.

    It would be interesting if they ever looked into why appetite is usually suppressed on low carb, and why some don't experience that. Is it ghrelin, leptin, ketones, absence of high carbs, presence of high fat, more protein or a protein to carbs or fat ratio, does insulin play any role or is it something else?

    Hall guessed it was the presence of ketones but that doesn't explain appetite suppression for those who are just low carb (below 100-150g) and not in ketosis at most times. I doubt it's ketones.

    The reason many people find it easier to control hunger ad litibum while following low carb is because th subsequent increase in protein and often fiber due to the restricted nature of the diet.

    On ketogenic diets, there is some evidence to suggest ketone production does correlate to hunger suppression but i am not sure that is confirmed.

    Letpin will decrease and ghrelin will increase regardless, if calories are dropped. That is why high carb refeeds are beneficial... Because a two day of carbs has been shown to normalize those levels.

    Also, there is some evidence that insulin suppresses appetite, contrary to the belief that some have.

    I believe that may be true for those who increase protein, but it does not explain those who do not increase protein. There are a number of people who make an effort to keep protein to the lower end of moderate, or even low, for various reasons (some valid, some not) yet they still experience the satiating effects of low carb. I doubt my protein is that high compared to those on a higher carb diet.

    Then there are the volume eaters who have tried keto or low carb, and said they were hungrier so they went back to more whole plants and volume for better satiation, possibly reducing protein while doing so. Who knows, perhaps their fibre is enough to compensate.

    Like protein, some increase fibre and some don't when they switch to lower carb levels. My own fibre is quite low lately yet the appetite suppressing effect is stil there (my protein is usually between 70-100g or around 20-25%).

    I've never heard it said that insulin increases hunger, unless you consider the effect BG swings may have after insulin does its job.... The hangries.

    I don't believe ketones have been confirmed as a hunger suppressor. If it had, exogenous ketones would be a LOT more popular than it is now.

    Carbs normalize leptin and ghrelin? I've not seen that. So higher carb = more stable? Do you have any sources on that?

    There is an entire refeed thread that has all the science behind refeeds and diet breaks; it includes multiple papers and videos from some of the leading researcher with this stuff. But a well designed refeed, low fat, ultra high carb and maintenance calories will increase leptin and decrease ghrelin. It was found that those who Incorporated refeeds lost as much weight as those who didn't.

    If you really want to know the science of hormones and various diets, you should look at Lyle McDonald. He was one of the OGs involved in researching and promoting the ketogenic diet and overall has lead the way in nutritional research.


    I probably should read his stuff - I just wish he was published then the libraries in my province might actually carry his work. I'm on a budget so I don't buy many books right now, and I find his videos difficult to stay focused on.

    His diets are books but there are tons of articles on his site and the whole science of refeeds and the hormonal impact is all there and was copied into the refeed thread from there. His books, with a few exceptions, are generally very specific protocols.

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