Rower machine- 1500m ?
Sauleeh
Posts: 83 Member
Heya. I started a program in the gym and the instructor wants me to do 1500m on the rower machine in under 7 minutes with the resistance of 10. Is this possible? Whenever I do it the quickest time was 7:16 but in pretty out of breath when I get to it. Is this realistic? I'm 5'1 64kg.
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Replies
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Is it possible? Sure. It's about a 3.7% increase on your current best time, a pretty reasonable goal I would have thought.
Reasonable and easy are not the same of course0 -
Heya. I started a program in the gym and the instructor wants me to do 1500m on the rower machine in under 7 minutes with the resistance of 10. Is this possible? Whenever I do it the quickest time was 7:16 but in pretty out of breath when I get to it. Is this realistic? I'm 5'1 64kg.
so you only need to take 17 seconds off... sounds a reasonable goal to me...0 -
That's 2:20 / 500m pace - it's really not fast for a sprint distance like 1500.
Whether that's possible for you right now and your current state of fitness is for you to judge, should certainly be attainable though as you aren't far away.
The quickest way for most to improve their times is to work on their technique, the rower is an excellent piece of equipment but so many people row really badly and inefficiently.
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos
I'm a bit concerned that your trainer calls the fan setting "resistance" as it isn't.
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-general-info/damper-setting-101
(Calling @AnnPT77 for her sage advice as a very knowledgeable rower and a star of the forums.....)4 -
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/tips-and-general-info/damper-setting-101
Damper Setting is…
Setting the Indoor Rower DamperThe damper is the lever on the side of the flywheel housing, or fan cage, that controls how much air flows into the cage. The fan cages on our later indoor rowers (Model C and later), are numbered so you can set the damper lever to a particular value from 1–10, indicating how much air is drawn into the cage on each stroke:
Higher damper settings allow more air into the flywheel housing. The more air, the more work it takes to spin the flywheel against the air. More air also slows the flywheel down faster on the recovery, requiring more work to accelerate it on the next stroke.
Lower damper settings allow less air into the flywheel housing, making it easier to spin the flywheel.
Damper setting is similar to bicycle gearing: it affects how rowing feels but does not directly affect the resistance. A lower damper setting on the indoor rower is comparable to easier gears on a bike.
Damper Setting is Not…
Many people confuse damper setting with intensity level or resistance. Instead, the intensity of your workout is controlled by how much you use your legs, back and arms to move the handle—in other words, how hard you pull. This is true regardless of where the damper lever is set: the harder you pull, the more resistance you will feel. Because our indoor rowers use wind resistance (which is generated by the spinning flywheel), the faster you get the wheel spinning, the more resistance there will be.
Think about rowing on the water. Regardless of whether you are rowing in a sleek racing shell, or in a big, slow row boat, you will need to increase your intensity and apply more force to make either boat go faster. The difference is in how it feels to make the different boats go fast. Making a sleek boat go fast requires you to apply your force more quickly. Making the slow boat go fast also requires more force, but the speed at which you apply the force will be slower over the course of the rowing stroke.
At a damper setting of 1–4, the indoor rower feels like a sleek racing shell; at the higher numbers, the indoor rower feels like a slow row boat. Regardless of the setting, you will need to increase your effort to increase your intensity.
Drag Factor: How True Effort is Calculated
You might be tempted to think that rowing on the highest setting will result in your best score. This is where the Performance Monitor comes in.
Between each stroke, the PM measures how much your flywheel is slowing down to determine how sleek or slow your “boat” is. This rate of deceleration is called the drag factor. On your next stroke, the PM uses the drag factor to determine from the speed of the flywheel how much work you are doing. In this way, your true effort is calculated regardless of damper setting. This self-calibration is what allows us to compare scores from different indoor rowers, making things like indoor racing and the online world rankings possible.
Different indoor rowers can have different drag factor ranges. A damper setting of 3 on your home machine may feel like 4 on the machine at the gym. Differences in air temperature, elevation—even how much lint is caught in the flywheel housing—can all affect the drag factor from machine to machine. When using different machines, you may need to adjust the damper setting to achieve the drag factor and feel you prefer. See How to View Drag Factor for information on checking the drag factor on your machine.
What Damper Setting to Use
With a little experimentation, you will find the damper setting and drag factor that work best for you. We recommend starting out on a damper setting of 3–5. Really focus on technique, and as you improve, you may find that a lower damper setting gives you the best workout and results. Resist setting the damper lever too high; this can exhaust your muscles before you reap the full cardiovascular benefit rowing provides. The Performance Monitor will give you immediate feedback on each stroke so that you can monitor your performance and determine where you get your best results.
You can also vary your damper setting to achieve different types of workouts. In general, lower damper settings are best for aerobic workouts, while higher damper settings make rowing more of a strength workout.
More on Damper Settings and Drag:
Debunking Myths: Damper Setting, Stroke Rate and Intensity
Damper Settings of Olympians
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Time to get a new coach. Absolutely no one your weight should be using a rowing machine on a Damper of 10. Period!2
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MikePfirrman wrote: »Time to get a new coach. Absolutely no one your weight should be using a rowing machine on a Damper of 10. Period!
Why?0 -
BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Time to get a new coach. Absolutely no one your weight should be using a rowing machine on a Damper of 10. Period!
Why?
That is the biggest mistake of new rowers (and trainers that don't understand rowing at all). I've rowed for four years and competed for three. It's like saying do an entire bike race in first gear. The post above (by anothermfpuser) is a good explanation of damper (not resistance) but even Olympic Hwt men only row around a damper of 5 or so. The damper is supposed to replicate the feel of rowing through water. Higher dampers like 10 is like telling the machine you're a 300 lb, 6 foot 6 man and replicating the drag in the water, certainly not a 64 kg female.
My indoor "club" has many, many indoor WR holder females (including the one that just put in a 6:21, which is just absolutely absurd 2K time this past year, shattering the old women's WR). Trust me, no experienced rowers use a DF of 10 unless they are doing very short sprints (like 500m or less) and no woman that is 64 kg should ever, ever use a 10 DF unless they want to injure themselves. I see their training and also their DFs on logs all the time. Even Olena (the WR holder I just mentioned) wouldn't be doing 1500m rows at a Damper of 10 and she's over 6 ft and much larger than the OP.
It's a pet peeve of all experienced rowers, walking into gyms where the damper is always on 10 and some smaller person is getting off of it. I see your Ironman picture. Cycling is the best comparison. You don't bike a road race on the same gear, that's absurd. Same with Damper settings. It's the same Watts over time regardless of if it's a One Damper or a 10. You have to speed the chain up and the SPM (strokes per minute) on lower drags. You also have to speed the drive (drive speed, not damper is where true power comes from).
Over high dampers lead to sloppy form, curled backs (like a deadlift, you do not want a curled back rowing) and loading of the spine, leading to serious injury. This is the same as asking a lifter to use too high of a weight and do an AMRAP (as many reps as possible) workout with stellar form. It shouldn't be asked because it can't be done safely.5 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Time to get a new coach. Absolutely no one your weight should be using a rowing machine on a Damper of 10. Period!
Why?
That is the biggest mistake of new rowers (and trainers that don't understand rowing at all). I've rowed for four years and competed for three. It's like saying do an entire bike race in first gear. The post above (by anothermfpuser) is a good explanation of damper (not resistance) but even Olympic Hwt men only row around a damper of 5 or so. The damper is supposed to replicate the feel of rowing through water. Higher dampers like 10 is like telling the machine you're a 300 lb, 6 foot 6 man and replicating the drag in the water, certainly not a 64 kg female.
My indoor "club" has many, many indoor WR holder females (including the one that just put in a 6:21, which is just absolutely absurd 2K time this past year, shattering the old women's WR). Trust me, no experienced rowers use a DF of 10 unless they are doing very short sprints (like 500m or less) and no woman that is 64 kg should ever, ever use a 10 DF unless they want to injure themselves. I see their training and also their DFs on logs all the time. Even Olena (the WR holder I just mentioned) wouldn't be doing 1500m rows at a Damper of 10 and she's over 6 ft and much larger than the OP.
It's a pet peeve of all experienced rowers, walking into gyms where the damper is always on 10 and some smaller person is getting off of it. I see your Ironman picture. Cycling is the best comparison. You don't bike a road race on the same gear, that's absurd. Same with Damper settings. It's the same Watts over time regardless of if it's a One Damper or a 10. You have to speed the chain up and the SPM (strokes per minute) on lower drags. You also have to speed the drive (drive speed, not damper is where true power comes from).
Over high dampers lead to sloppy form, curled backs (like a deadlift, you do not want a curled back rowing) and loading of the spine, leading to serious injury. This is the same as asking a lifter to use too high of a weight and do an AMRAP (as many reps as possible) workout with stellar form. It shouldn't be asked because it can't be done safely.
Wow !!! Thanks sooooo much for explaining that!!
And here I was thinking I was a whimp for not using Damper 10.
Is there somewhere I could get an idea of what I should be setting my Damper to?1 -
The above posters (@MikePfirrman and @anothermfpuser) have given good advice on damper setting. Women should be setting the damper somewhere in the 3-4 range for sprint pieces - even elite women rowers do this - men a little higher. No one who knows what they're doing uses a damper setting of 10, except for the occasional very specialized technical drill. As Mike said, seeing the damper on 10 is usually a dead giveaway that the person knows little about rowing.
On your central question, how reasonable is 7:00 for 1.5K . . . it should be achievable for most, and easily achievable for many . . . not on day one, but with some reasonable technical coaching and some conditioning. (It might be a challenging ultimate goal for someone very small, extremely light, elderly or child, weak for some reason, some adaptive rowers (physically handicapped, to use an outdated term, to the point of needing specialized equipment or modifications of the stroke in order to row), or disabled in some way.
OP, within what time scale does your instructor think you should be able to achieve 7:00? Your next row? Next month? "Someday"? That may determine your best strategy. If you're supposed to get there right away, and your instructor wants you to get there just by going at it harder . . . get a new instructor. (That would be a good idea anyway, because he's teaching an exercise modality he doesn't understand. If nothing else, both "damper on 10" and the fact that it's 1.5K (no one rowing-knowledgeable uses 1.5K sprints as a normal benchmark distance) tell us that he doesn't know enough about rowing to be teaching it.)
Adults do 1K or 2K sprints. (Masters - which just means older - athletes sometimes race 1K distances, more often on water than machines, as do juniors (high school and younger). Standard adult sprints are 2K, water and machine.) Collegiate rowers also do some 6K rowing machine testing, and others may test 5K or 6K. (Occasionally people row marathons, half marathons or 10Ks, but those aren't sprints, by definition.)
If you want to know a range of paces for 2K, the most comparable distance to your 1.5K, there's a rankings database for machine rowing at https://log.concept2.com/rankings. You can put in your age range, weight class and sex, and see how long it takes women your age to row 2K. If you want to equate that to your 1.5K, use the pace calculator (https://log.concept2.com/rankings) to figure out your current split (minutes per 500 , which is 2:20) and the equivalent 2K time (which would be 9:20 - note that 2K is a bit more difficult than 1.5, so you'd expect to get a slightly faster best split (lower number) at 1.5K vs. 2K, but not a huge lot better.
I don't know how old you are, but for the women 19-29 female all weights category, 9:20 would be toward the bottom: More than 75% of those reporting report a faster time. That's my basis for believing you can get 7:00 for 1.5K. (Older would be slower, in general, but I could do it pretty handily - I'm not well-trained now, and would be breathing hard when I got done, but it wouldn't be a huuuuge challenge, as 62-year-old lightweight. I'm guessing, but at max effort, I could probably do 1.5K in something like 6:30 or a bit slower if I just ran downstairs now, warmed up, and tried to kick one out at my best current pace. I'm not fast - my best times still have around 25% of those my age who're reporting coming out faster than me.)
There are 3 main paths you could take to getting a faster time (or you can combine them): 1) Cardiovascular (CV) fitness improvement (including endurance as well as peak capabilities), 2) strength improvement, and 3) technical improvement. CV and strength improvement are certainly things you can work on, but they're inherently slower; technical improvement takes intelligent training but potentially can give you some quicker improvements, especially if you're pretty new at this. I'm skeptical that your instructor will give you the tools you need to make technical improvement.
I'm going to suggest a few technical things, even though the idea of coaching via forum post is freakin' ludicrous.
1. Watch the Concept 2 beginner video (and the other videos at https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos). Work on the things they suggest. If you can, get someone to take a little video of you rowing, and compare it to what you see there.
2. Practice at a low strokes per minute rating (mid to high teens at first) to get better technically as per the videos. Slow, steady practice is the foundation of improving CV fitness, too, so you're getting two birds with one stone. Don't bother to go above the mid-20s unless you're doing timed racing. (Even racing, you may find you can hold a faster split at a lower stroke rating, if your technique breaks down at higher spm rating, as it does for many beginners). Focus on technically correct strokes that are strong - watch the split (immediate (not average) estimated time per 500m) on the monitor, try to make it be a smaller number (faster) by making technical improvements.
3. Some of your best bets, in my experience, for knocking some seconds off your split:
A. Getting the legs-body-arms on the drive, arms-body-legs on the recovery sequences correct, as per the videos. You're trying to suspend your body weight between the foot stretchers and the handle, and maximize the total length of time each body part contributes to the time, but still have enough overlap/continuity between them that you don't lose the suspension. "Suspend" means you will feel your butt unweight slightly from the seat - not come all the way off, but "unsquish" a little as the handle and your feet take the majority of the force. On a Concept 2 rower, the force curve display is a help (push the display button til you get the graph with Kg on the vertical axis). On each stroke, you want to see a smooth "hill" shape, possibly with the peak shifted a bit to the left, but smooth up to the peak, and smooth back down. A taller hill with steep slopes is a good thing, though the right-hand side can be a little more gradual slope (you don't want just an ultra-steep mountain, either). Any dips within the hill imply a lack of smooth transition from one body part to another.
B. You'll want to be starting the drive with shins at or near vertical. If your heels come up a little at this point, be sure to press down your heels as the very first thing. I can usually knock a couple of seconds off my split by focusing back on this.
C. Once you can feel that "suspension" thing at the catch (beginning of the leg push), focus on pushing harder - smoothly, but add leg strength almost if you were pushing to jump horizontally - i.e., don't just move up and down the slide, use power at the start. Don't so much think of that power as causing your legs to unbend, but as propelling the handle (and your still forward-swung body and straight arms) as you start to move your body up the slide. This will be easier to feel if you work at a stroke rate as low as 14-16 and focus on each individual stroke for a while.
D. After the leg power, use the body swing and arms to continue accelerating the handle, which should be traveling at a level angle out of the flywheel (not upward or downward). For most women, this will usually mean that when the handle approaches your body, it's somewhere around the level of the lower band of your bra. The arms can even add a little snap or oomph at the very end. (Let your elbows relax naturally out the the side, rather than trying to keep them unnaturally tight to your torso.)
E. Don't try for too much body lean backwards. Keep it relaxed and natural. If you lose suspension between feet/handle, there's no point in more layback. If your layback keeps you from doing the next item below, either, then it's too much layback. (Some instructors who don't know what they're doing will encourage too much layback for the rower's physical development level.)
F. This next piece is my very best "hack" for improving split at no great energy cost: When you finish the drive - the power part of the stroke - smoothly and quickly send the handle away from your body with your hands/arms and swing forward from your hip socket. You want to feel like that first arms + body part of the recovery goes at about the same speed the body and arms were moving at the end of the drive, but in the opposite direction. Quick hands away keeps the flywheel spinning freely, and will give most people a split improvement. Then, relax your knees and let the slope of the rail plus the flywheel action bring you back up for the next catch - this is your mini-vacation - don't invest effort in pulling yourself back up the slide with your legs. Rushing back up the slide is a total waste of energy. Just relax after the body swing, and it will "just happen". A way to work on this is to not strap your feet in, just put them on the footstretchers. You should be able to row almost as fast (split wise) with your feet out, as with them strapped in. You spend more time on the recovery (in total) than on the drive.
That's what I've got, for suggestions.
Except the one I'd repeat: Get a new instructor, if you want to do rowing.
Best wishes for improving your 1.5K time!6 -
bikecheryl wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »BrianSharpe wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Time to get a new coach. Absolutely no one your weight should be using a rowing machine on a Damper of 10. Period!
Why?
That is the biggest mistake of new rowers (and trainers that don't understand rowing at all). I've rowed for four years and competed for three. It's like saying do an entire bike race in first gear. The post above (by anothermfpuser) is a good explanation of damper (not resistance) but even Olympic Hwt men only row around a damper of 5 or so. The damper is supposed to replicate the feel of rowing through water. Higher dampers like 10 is like telling the machine you're a 300 lb, 6 foot 6 man and replicating the drag in the water, certainly not a 64 kg female.
My indoor "club" has many, many indoor WR holder females (including the one that just put in a 6:21, which is just absolutely absurd 2K time this past year, shattering the old women's WR). Trust me, no experienced rowers use a DF of 10 unless they are doing very short sprints (like 500m or less) and no woman that is 64 kg should ever, ever use a 10 DF unless they want to injure themselves. I see their training and also their DFs on logs all the time. Even Olena (the WR holder I just mentioned) wouldn't be doing 1500m rows at a Damper of 10 and she's over 6 ft and much larger than the OP.
It's a pet peeve of all experienced rowers, walking into gyms where the damper is always on 10 and some smaller person is getting off of it. I see your Ironman picture. Cycling is the best comparison. You don't bike a road race on the same gear, that's absurd. Same with Damper settings. It's the same Watts over time regardless of if it's a One Damper or a 10. You have to speed the chain up and the SPM (strokes per minute) on lower drags. You also have to speed the drive (drive speed, not damper is where true power comes from).
Over high dampers lead to sloppy form, curled backs (like a deadlift, you do not want a curled back rowing) and loading of the spine, leading to serious injury. This is the same as asking a lifter to use too high of a weight and do an AMRAP (as many reps as possible) workout with stellar form. It shouldn't be asked because it can't be done safely.
Wow !!! Thanks sooooo much for explaining that!!
And here I was thinking I was a whimp for not using Damper 10.
Is there somewhere I could get an idea of what I should be setting my Damper to?
That explanation by Ann was wonderful. Not much to add to that at all, but to answer your question on what is the proper drag for you, it's a very personal thing.
For most women (generally), 2/3 is a good starting damper. Damper isn't the same as Drag Factor. Because each machine is different and some way dirtier than others, if the fan is dirtier, a 5 on one dirty machine will be like a 3 on a clean fan.
Here's how to view what's really important - DF, not damper
https://www.concept2.com/service/monitors/pm3/how-to-use/viewing-drag-factor
Before every row, you should know this. If you have an PM 5, Erg Data is a fantastic app to add to phone and they sell "cradles" that go above the machine and quickly give you useful analytics wirelessly, including Drag Factor.
Personally, I suppose the "macho" guys would think I'm wimpy because I rowed my PB (personal best) row this year, a 7:11 2K, at a 103 DF. I prefer a lower DF and like working at higher SPMs, likely because I have a crap right knee and tender lower back. Most men like 110 to 115. Most women like 100 to 105. Again, this is general.
If you're working on sprints/power, it might be OK to up to 110/115. If you're working on higher average SPM (strokes per minute), you might set it lower. It's all what you feel comfortable with (I should add within reason and not "10"!! I believe 10 on a clean, well maintained machine is a 200 DF). Longer rows on higher DFs take a lot out of you, so as such, should be limited to around once a week. These rows (and these are for the experienced rower) are 18 to 22 SPM rows with higher DFs and more power behind each stroke. Usually, lactic acid build up in the muscles will the limiting factor, not cardio on these rows (and it can take days to recover from them). Hope that answers your question.
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Just for truth in advertising: I'm an on-water rower. Rowing machines are for training when the water gets crunchy in Winter, and we race them in Winter sometimes for bragging rights, or for kicks. (Coaches use them in Winter for testing.)
That creates my bias: I will set my damper (and drag factor) to a somewhat-boat-y level. Very rarely will I change the rowing machine away from that, other than for some very specific drills.
Mike is giving good advice, but a bit more tailored to the machine-rowing-focused person; and for beginner/intermediate rowers I usually just suggest looking at damper setting rather than drag factor, just to keep life simple. At a more refined level, he's exactly correct IMO.
We are not disagreeing, to the extent our advice differs, IMO. We're coming from slightly different perspectives.4 -
Thank you so so much for all of this information. I just find the row very difficult so I just run on the treadmill instead. Also to answer the question how quickly he wants me to improve is that every time I get on the machine I need to at least improve by a second but I get so out of breath I need to stop to drink water and continue. It is also at the end of my program and I'm pretty tired so I just find running easier 1500m in 10 mins3
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Thank you so so much for all of this information. I just find the row very difficult so I just run on the treadmill instead. Also to answer the question how quickly he wants me to improve is that every time I get on the machine I need to at least improve by a second but I get so out of breath I need to stop to drink water and continue. It is also at the end of my program and I'm pretty tired so I just find running easier 1500m in 10 mins
The trick for me improving my times (and overall experience) was, paradoxically, to go slower. I had a bad habit of just going full sprint right out of the gate regardless every time, would hit a wall, and then would suffer for the rest of the workout (or would change my plans from a 5k to a...uh, 1.25k, yeah, that sounds much better...and would be overall slower than when I find the "right" pace and stick with it. And this took work and practice to figure out what that pace was and even more work to force myself to stick with it.
(Also, TIL I've apparently been setting the damper too high for my rowing sessions...)4 -
If it's a Concept 2, there is no "resistance setting."
There is only a damper setting which simulates the "drag" of a boat in water AFTER you have completed a stroke.
The higher the damper setting, the higher the drag factor and the bigger the "imaginary boat" that you are rowing and the less it will "glide"after you complete a stroke.
I row an average of 10k meters/day. I use a damper setting between 5 & 6 with a drag factor of about 120. That's all most people need for normal rowing activity.
Increased speed and reduced times come from rowing harder which means increased effort (as indicated by watts or cals/hr burned) and rowing faster to match the speed (as indicated by SPM - strokes per min) REGARDLESS of the damper setting.
BTW, I nrmally row 2500m in 12.5 mins at a rate of 27-28 SPM and 660-700 cals/hr which is fairly easy for me to do. I row four 2500m intervals to total 10k meters/day w/5-15 min breaks betwen intervals.
I can row faster & harder but rowing faster & harder is not my objective.0 -
Thank you so so much for all of this information. I just find the row very difficult so I just run on the treadmill instead. Also to answer the question how quickly he wants me to improve is that every time I get on the machine I need to at least improve by a second but I get so out of breath I need to stop to drink water and continue. It is also at the end of my program and I'm pretty tired so I just find running easier 1500m in 10 mins
While not directly related to the rowing...does your trainer really expect that you will be faster every single time you row-no matter what? That’s not a realistic expectation.5
This discussion has been closed.
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