LOWER TDEE THAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN OVERWEIGHT
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Won't keep spamming, but if you're interested in the subject, his book is well worth the read. (well, most chapters. I think he does need a better editor for some of the long-winded ones.)
Chapter 9 is really a great and informative read though.
TLDR: After a year of maintenance, most people see no large change in RMR (resting metabolic rate). Any changes were usually attributed to NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis). ie. parking farther from your destination, taking the stairs, tapping your foot, etc.
During and right after dieting, hormone levels were out of whack causing lots of hunger and lethargy. Refeeds, etc minimized this...7 -
Right. And adaptive decreases to TDEE can be mitigated by not using an aggressive deficit (thus decreasing energy levels) and by taking diet breaks and using refeeds, correct?5
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Right. And adaptive decreases to TDEE can be mitigated by not using an aggressive deficit (thus decreasing energy levels) and by taking diet breaks and using refeeds, correct?
yep...4 -
Good discussion (along the lines of annaskiski's posts)
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1077746/starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss/p17 -
I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.1
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kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
But again, you're assuming that it will always be so.
What we are saying is that, yes, if there is rapid weight loss there is a bit of [artificially] lowered BMR/RMR - temporarily, but it is reversible and it's not destined to happen if weight loss is done in a reasonable manner nor is it a major stumbling block. We're also saying that if you lose weight at a reasonable rate and employing refeeds (and not in steep deficit) that you will ease into maintenance at a normal BMR.
Read that link in my post just above and also that refeeds link in the third reply on page one.6 -
annaskiski wrote: »Short term Changes:
Adaptation to Diet and Fat Loss
When someone reduces food intake or in response to dieting, there is a fairly stereotyped response in the above systems. Due to less total food being eaten, less of the fullness hormones such as CCK, PYY, etc. are released. Ghrelin levels are also increased overall and don't decrease as much after a meal. Leptin, released primarily from fat cells, decreases which means that the brain responds even less to those hormone signals. The increase in leptin and decrease in ghrelin, along with the other hormonal changes, has a potent overall effect which is to increase appetite and hunger along with decreasing how full people get after a meal (at the extremes, dieters may be hungry shortly after finishing the previous meal). Those same hormonal changes also impact on the hedonic system with DA levels dropping (leptin plays a major role here) along with other changes. This makes tasty foods taste even better (think of how much better a cookie or piece of cake tastes when you're hungry) and dieters even notice and pay attention to palatable foods that much more easily. These changes can make dietary adherence more difficult.
In addition to any short term changes in hunger, there are also longer term changes as fat is lost. In overweight individuals, for example, hunger increases by 5% and fullness decreases by 3% for every 2.2 lbs (1kg) of fat lost (13). The more fat is lost, the greater the effect. Although not well studied at the extremes of low BF%, hunger and appetite may be relentlessly high. In the Minnesota study the men became absolutely obsessed with food, talking about little else, near the end of the diet. This can be seen online in the behavior of lean athletes who are dieting who talk about looking at or posting pictures of tasty foods (which they call food porn) on social media.
Lyle McDonald. The Women's Book (Kindle Locations 3064-3066). Lyle McDonald.
While I am a big fan of Lyle McDonald, I think the Minnesota Starvation Experiment's main use in this conversation is to say "Don't lose weight the way they did." After all, this was literally a starvation experiment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
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kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
many people are citing specific studies and research that has been done that counters what you are posting - to include lyle mcdonald who is well known in the scientific field
and what they are saying is someone who say lost 50lbs at a rate of 3lbs a week would have a lower RMR when all is said and done vs. someone who lost 50lbs at a rate of 1lb a week - a slower more steady rate of loss vs. a more agressive one2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »Short term Changes:
Adaptation to Diet and Fat Loss
When someone reduces food intake or in response to dieting, there is a fairly stereotyped response in the above systems. Due to less total food being eaten, less of the fullness hormones such as CCK, PYY, etc. are released. Ghrelin levels are also increased overall and don't decrease as much after a meal. Leptin, released primarily from fat cells, decreases which means that the brain responds even less to those hormone signals. The increase in leptin and decrease in ghrelin, along with the other hormonal changes, has a potent overall effect which is to increase appetite and hunger along with decreasing how full people get after a meal (at the extremes, dieters may be hungry shortly after finishing the previous meal). Those same hormonal changes also impact on the hedonic system with DA levels dropping (leptin plays a major role here) along with other changes. This makes tasty foods taste even better (think of how much better a cookie or piece of cake tastes when you're hungry) and dieters even notice and pay attention to palatable foods that much more easily. These changes can make dietary adherence more difficult.
In addition to any short term changes in hunger, there are also longer term changes as fat is lost. In overweight individuals, for example, hunger increases by 5% and fullness decreases by 3% for every 2.2 lbs (1kg) of fat lost (13). The more fat is lost, the greater the effect. Although not well studied at the extremes of low BF%, hunger and appetite may be relentlessly high. In the Minnesota study the men became absolutely obsessed with food, talking about little else, near the end of the diet. This can be seen online in the behavior of lean athletes who are dieting who talk about looking at or posting pictures of tasty foods (which they call food porn) on social media.
Lyle McDonald. The Women's Book (Kindle Locations 3064-3066). Lyle McDonald.
While I am a big fan of Lyle McDonald, I think the Minnesota Starvation Experiment's main use in this conversation is to say "Don't lose weight the way they did." After all, this was literally a starvation experiment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
the irony of the Minnestoa starvation experiment is that the calories they were restricted too are still higher than many of the caloric consumptions we see mentioned on the board
the control period (12 weeks) was 3200 cal a day
the semi-starvation period (24 weeks) was 1560 cal a day5 -
Metabolism is nothing more than a culmination of biochemical pathways. There is no such thing as fast or slow metabolism. There is simply a range of output potential.
The phenomenon of a perceived "lowering" of BMR in individuals who have lost significant weight isn't as significant as certain institutions would like you to believe. There are several issues in this "study" requiring more investigation.
1 - the participants did not have their intake monitored.
2 - degree of variation in BMR does not exceed the degree of error in instruments.
3 - no repeat testing was conducted over time.
Research into adaptive thermogenesis shows that BMR varies slightly based on food availability. Will increase in respond to more food and decrease to a much lesser degree in absence of food. This phenomenon turned into the poor strategy to "eat more to lose weight". The problem being that the amount of food required to cause an increase in BMR still results in a caloric surplus - ending in weight gain.6 -
kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
In addition to all the above (that the effect is temporary and can be mitigated by more controlled weight loss), what is the alternative? If someone is obese (or morbidly so as I was), does this really matter? They need to lose the weight for health reasons regardless of whether they end up at a lower BMR or not.
Oh, and I think if you had read the responses and the links, you would see they are not just going by opinion but are referring back to reasonable data.9 -
kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
I've read the studies and when I was working to lose weight they did scare me - I was afraid of gaining back all the weight, no matter how hard I tried, because all the studies were saying it was inevitable. But after 8 months maintaining, having lost almost half my bodyweight, I don't find that the studies agree with my personal experience.
In fact, I am much more relaxed around food now, and my husband can eat pizza in front of me without me even wanting a slice, because I just don't feel the need for it. When I was obese that would have been unthinkable. I get a lot of exercise, and that seems to be key for me. Most of the people who are long term maintainers in the National Registry, which tracks people who have maintained a large weight loss, also get lots of exercise.5 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
In addition to all the above (that the effect is temporary and can be mitigated by more controlled weight loss), what is the alternative? If someone is obese (or morbidly so as I was), does this really matter? They need to lose the weight for health reasons regardless of whether they end up at a lower BMR or not.
Oh, and I think if you had read the responses and the links, you would see they are not just going by opinion but are referring back to reasonable data.
Hey, the ones who had data I appreciated. The ones who just immediately shrugged it off, and weren't really understanding what I was saying are who I'm referring to.rheddmobile wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
I've read the studies and when I was working to lose weight they did scare me - I was afraid of gaining back all the weight, no matter how hard I tried, because all the studies were saying it was inevitable. But after 8 months maintaining, having lost almost half my bodyweight, I don't find that the studies agree with my personal experience.
In fact, I am much more relaxed around food now, and my husband can eat pizza in front of me without me even wanting a slice, because I just don't feel the need for it. When I was obese that would have been unthinkable. I get a lot of exercise, and that seems to be key for me. Most of the people who are long term maintainers in the National Registry, which tracks people who have maintained a large weight loss, also get lots of exercise.
Yes, its a fear thing. I am looking for support rather than the judgements. Thanks for empathy. It is already difficult for me to lose weight due to PCOS. I feel like my intake has to be so very low.3 -
kristinstephenson86 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
In addition to all the above (that the effect is temporary and can be mitigated by more controlled weight loss), what is the alternative? If someone is obese (or morbidly so as I was), does this really matter? They need to lose the weight for health reasons regardless of whether they end up at a lower BMR or not.
Oh, and I think if you had read the responses and the links, you would see they are not just going by opinion but are referring back to reasonable data.
Hey, the ones who had data I appreciated. The ones who just immediately shrugged it off, and weren't really understanding what I was saying are who I'm referring to.rheddmobile wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
I've read the studies and when I was working to lose weight they did scare me - I was afraid of gaining back all the weight, no matter how hard I tried, because all the studies were saying it was inevitable. But after 8 months maintaining, having lost almost half my bodyweight, I don't find that the studies agree with my personal experience.
In fact, I am much more relaxed around food now, and my husband can eat pizza in front of me without me even wanting a slice, because I just don't feel the need for it. When I was obese that would have been unthinkable. I get a lot of exercise, and that seems to be key for me. Most of the people who are long term maintainers in the National Registry, which tracks people who have maintained a large weight loss, also get lots of exercise.
Yes, its a fear thing. I am looking for support rather than the judgements. Thanks for empathy. It is already difficult for me to lose weight due to PCOS. I feel like my intake has to be so very low.
I assumed as much based on your initial question. Nothing to fear.
I have hypothyroidism which carries its own load of woo and myths about weight loss. After finding MFP and following the process I lost 60 lbs in the first year and have been at maintenance for over 3 years now.5 -
While this Dr seems to think once you get into the state you are stuck there, and also doesn't see that he's running rather aggressive weight loss strategy, the reasons he discusses are interesting, and true even on more reasonable weight loss methods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_cmltmQ6A
Whereas this is my favorite study because they seemed to attempt to break it all down nicely, and had reasonable and aggressive rates, and it showed that even coming up on the end the body/system was starting to make some recovery back up to perhaps expected levels.
More importantly how to mitigate the effect. Those refeed studies though show effectiveness likely could have been improved even to this.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251
Of course with any of these studies - they are measured out the whazoo, generally were very healthy to start with, and no extra stressors of disease or such.
Attempt to walk on that unknown line of tipping over to unhappy body ready to adapt, without those extra benefits of being in a study - and things may feel just fine being in that state ("I listen to my body" - though it likely speaks a foreign language) - but it might just be easier not trying to but up against that line.
As many advocate - fastest weight loss is not always the best - reasonable is usually more sustainable.4 -
kristinstephenson86 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
In addition to all the above (that the effect is temporary and can be mitigated by more controlled weight loss), what is the alternative? If someone is obese (or morbidly so as I was), does this really matter? They need to lose the weight for health reasons regardless of whether they end up at a lower BMR or not.
Oh, and I think if you had read the responses and the links, you would see they are not just going by opinion but are referring back to reasonable data.
Hey, the ones who had data I appreciated. The ones who just immediately shrugged it off, and weren't really understanding what I was saying are who I'm referring to.rheddmobile wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
I've read the studies and when I was working to lose weight they did scare me - I was afraid of gaining back all the weight, no matter how hard I tried, because all the studies were saying it was inevitable. But after 8 months maintaining, having lost almost half my bodyweight, I don't find that the studies agree with my personal experience.
In fact, I am much more relaxed around food now, and my husband can eat pizza in front of me without me even wanting a slice, because I just don't feel the need for it. When I was obese that would have been unthinkable. I get a lot of exercise, and that seems to be key for me. Most of the people who are long term maintainers in the National Registry, which tracks people who have maintained a large weight loss, also get lots of exercise.
Yes, its a fear thing. I am looking for support rather than the judgements. Thanks for empathy. It is already difficult for me to lose weight due to PCOS. I feel like my intake has to be so very low.
I had the same fears because I read the same studies you did. So I really do understand where you're coming from.
I did more research, especially on the National Weight Control Registry site and on reading the maintenance section on the forums here, and came to the conclusion that the difference between the studies which had the results of the lowered BMR and the people who were maintaining on expected calories for their weights was rapid weight loss at extreme caloric restriction.
Here's a link to studies from the National Weight Control Registry. You might find some of the studies here enlightening.
nwcr.ws/research/published%20research.htm
Remember in the world of science, anyone can do a study, but it does help to keep a critical eye. Not all studies are well-designed.
ETA: Regarding your struggles with losing weight with PCOS, some women with it find it easier losing weight when they eat a lower carb diet. You might want to check out the low carb group on here for some information. Another thing that helps women with PCOS is weight lifting. Heavy if you can handle it. But any strength training you can do would help.3 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »kristinstephenson86 wrote: »I am just now reading ALL THESE!! Thanks for the response. And yes, I am referring to studies that show that people who have never lost weight have a higher BMR than someone who has lost weight at the same size. Meaning those that have lost weight are hungrier, but must eat less than if they were naturally that size. I have read this over and over in scientific studies. Don't go by just opinion, I would suggest reading the studies to educate yourself at least on what some doctors believe about weight loss.
In addition to all the above (that the effect is temporary and can be mitigated by more controlled weight loss), what is the alternative? If someone is obese (or morbidly so as I was), does this really matter? They need to lose the weight for health reasons regardless of whether they end up at a lower BMR or not.
Oh, and I think if you had read the responses and the links, you would see they are not just going by opinion but are referring back to reasonable data.
This can't be emphasized enough. So you might end up with a slightly depressed BMR (might, not guaranteed by any means). Ok. At most, acknowledge that and educate yourself on the ways to lessen the likelihood that will happen. Or adopt a defeatist attitude and decide it's not worth the effort. Your choice.4 -
kristinstephenson86 wrote: »Thanks everyone! And yes I mean BMR. And I ask because it's unmotivating thinking your body is going to make you miserable the whole way. Makes you want to give up.
More miserable than staying fat?2 -
kristinstephenson86 wrote: »Thanks everyone! And yes I mean BMR. And I ask because it's unmotivating thinking your body is going to make you miserable the whole way. Makes you want to give up.
More miserable than staying fat?
I wasn't miserable being fat. Really wasn't. Still did some stuff (nowhere near what I do now) and was okay with it. Maybe just plain old ignorance.
And while I'm more active, doesn't make me that much happier. Other things that sucked before still suck now. Just I can run away from them now.10
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