Strength Training While Losing Weight??

FitFamilyGuy wrote: »

Fair enough. Let's respectfully agree to disagree.

I don't see the point on holding that attitude for empirical claims. If I say the earth is an oblate spheroid and someone says it is flat, I don't agree to disagree with them on it.

FitFamilyGuy wrote: »

A) I would guess that I burn more calories lifting weights than the average person. I have seen what most people do and it sometimes looks like there is a whole lot of room for improvement. If I can build myself up from the average, I'm sure others can too.
C) I don't think 12 pounds is unrealistic. I explained why below.
D) So weights isn't good for testosterone and testosterone isn't good for lean body composition? Ok?
F) Perhaps. I fist firmly believe that more muscle means more calories are burned. Then to help drive home the multiple other benefits that results in people like me actually achieving real world goals, I tend to elaborate. To me, a bird in the hand is more valuable than two in the bush.
G) Sorry I missed your point here.
H) I still think all of the points are valid.

A. I'm not sure what is the point of this, and it sounds almost contradictory at this point. If you're claiming you're doing the exrecises properly, you should be using less calories because the goal in most weight lifting is to move the maximum weight the maximum number of times - a part of accomplishing that is using the minimal energy.
C. To the extent it is realistic for someone to acquire in moderate time, would imply they're making beginner gains.
D. Why would you say "So weights isn't good for testosterone and testosterone isn't good for lean body composition? " in response to me saying "but a person's testosterone will generally increase with fitness." I would say that if there were two people at equal composition, the one with the lower testosterone might actually be more easy to maintain.
G. You've started broadening your claim and asking about all kinds of areas about an overall thesis as if I have to agree with everything or nothing. I'm not here to just provide you a counter argument for the sake of argument. I'm trying to actually put out sound information.
H. Odd response for someone that started off with the implication that this could all be subjective. Also, no. The idea that muscles use up large calories is one you yourself seem to be retreating from based on your trying to make it look like people are somehow disagreeing with you about if there are merits to weight lifting.

FitFamilyGuy wrote: »

To summarize I would simplify it all down to the extreme examples like a bodybuilder which I think also applies to the average person. The reality is that those who have a lot of muscle to work, weight more and eat more calories to feed that extra muscle and their body fat percentage is generally lower. Those muscles are hungry for calories 24 hours a day. Putting aside all of the other benefits for those trying to get and keep off body fat this is a reality that can not be denied.

No one disagree with you seems to be denying muscles use calories. That's an uninteresting claim. The idea of "hungry" seems to mean little in comparison to what it sounds like. It is a few calories a pound per day. That's one of your points that is definitively not valid.
I could just as trivially claim muscle can easily be unassociated with keeping off body fat by pointing out the way power lifters and strongmen tend to be fine with putting on fat to gain muscle. That one can be a metabolically obese power lifter or strongman is a reality that cannot be denied.
If one was merely looking at it in a time efficiency window, it would be easy for cardio to end up with a greater calorie burn compared to burn from weight lifting, plus accumulated muscle maintenance.

magnusthenerd wrote: »

FitFamilyGuy wrote: »

Fair enough. Let's respectfully agree to disagree.

I don't see the point on holding that attitude for empirical claims. If I say the earth is an oblate spheroid and someone says it is flat, I don't agree to disagree with them on it.

FitFamilyGuy wrote: »

A) I would guess that I burn more calories lifting weights than the average person. I have seen what most people do and it sometimes looks like there is a whole lot of room for improvement. If I can build myself up from the average, I'm sure others can too.
C) I don't think 12 pounds is unrealistic. I explained why below.
D) So weights isn't good for testosterone and testosterone isn't good for lean body composition? Ok?
F) Perhaps. I fist firmly believe that more muscle means more calories are burned. Then to help drive home the multiple other benefits that results in people like me actually achieving real world goals, I tend to elaborate. To me, a bird in the hand is more valuable than two in the bush.
G) Sorry I missed your point here.
H) I still think all of the points are valid.

A. I'm not sure what is the point of this, and it sounds almost contradictory at this point. If you're claiming you're doing the exrecises properly, you should be using less calories because the goal in most weight lifting is to move the maximum weight the maximum number of times - a part of accomplishing that is using the minimal energy.
C. To the extent it is realistic for someone to acquire in moderate time, would imply they're making beginner gains.
D. Why would you say "So weights isn't good for testosterone and testosterone isn't good for lean body composition? " in response to me saying "but a person's testosterone will generally increase with fitness." I would say that if there were two people at equal composition, the one with the lower testosterone might actually be more easy to maintain.
G. You've started broadening your claim and asking about all kinds of areas about an overall thesis as if I have to agree with everything or nothing. I'm not here to just provide you a counter argument for the sake of argument. I'm trying to actually put out sound information.
H. Odd response for someone that started off with the implication that this could all be subjective. Also, no. The idea that muscles use up large calories is one you yourself seem to be retreating from based on your trying to make it look like people are somehow disagreeing with you about if there are merits to weight lifting.

FitFamilyGuy wrote: »

To summarize I would simplify it all down to the extreme examples like a bodybuilder which I think also applies to the average person. The reality is that those who have a lot of muscle to work, weight more and eat more calories to feed that extra muscle and their body fat percentage is generally lower. Those muscles are hungry for calories 24 hours a day. Putting aside all of the other benefits for those trying to get and keep off body fat this is a reality that can not be denied.

No one disagree with you seems to be denying muscles use calories. That's an uninteresting claim. The idea of "hungry" seems to mean little in comparison to what it sounds like. It is a few calories a pound per day. That's one of your points that is definitively not valid.
I could just as trivially claim muscle can easily be unassociated with keeping off body fat by pointing out the way power lifters and strongmen tend to be fine with putting on fat to gain muscle. That one can be a metabolically obese power lifter or strongman is a reality that cannot be denied.
If one was merely looking at it in a time efficiency window, it would be easy for cardio to end up with a greater calorie burn compared to burn from weight lifting, plus accumulated muscle maintenance.

Goodness magnusthenerd, thank you for your detailed reply. I appreciate your energy and attention to detail. I underestimated how much time I would need to go into an answer that personally seems like common sense to me. I say "common sense" because from my perspective, I am walking the walk.

I know what will happen if I eat fewer calories and stop lifting weights:
1) I know I will have less demand for the calories to go towards muscle because there will be less muscle.
2) I know that my body fat percentage will go up and I will be less lean.
3) I know that I have my current lean physique because of my weights (muscle) and diet.

It is difficult to debate isolated theories dependent on a lot of variables and potential problems when the first hand real world result is something I live. I can appreciate your perspective and I think you make some valid points but I find myself getting lost in details when the results seem to speak for themselves.

To simplify:

a) Beginners have an easier time adding new muscle and those who have lifted weights for a while probably already have muscle that they should keep and learn to possibly even build more. The point is that I think the average person has the ability to add enough muscle to gain a significant advantage over those who do not. I think that breaking down the advantage to a single pound sounds discouraging to others but in the real world multiple pounds is a real advantage. Personally, I probably have an extra 25 lbs (+17%) of muscle on my frame so I think others have the ability to do something similar if not more.

b) We can drop the extra discussion about the added benefits of the weights. I bring up the other points out of passion and hoping others see things from a fresh perspective and not the standard, "eat less" and work hard many times per week for what seems like to me, a lot of time on "cardio". Personally, I see a lot of people trying to do that and failing. I meet a lot of people believing in this traditional strategy and then they are amazed at how I keep my physique without cardio, with shorter workouts, without suffering, without cutting carbs and depriving myself, without drugs, with a lot of rest time during my workouts, while eating ice-cream and pizza... etc. etc... People have litterall approached me out of the blue to ask me my secrets and question how my build is possibly achieved without cardio, deprivation and suffering. I would generally suggest that those who understand and implement weights and nutrition to burn fat, typically are able to get and stay lean better than those trying typical "weight loss" strategies. But again, I just get passionate because I walk the walk and I like seeing others learn that there is another way. We can drop these added benefits of muscle if you like.

I would like to touch on your argument about Powerlifters and Strongmen. I agree that you can have a lot of muscle and be obese. We both agree on that. A powerlifter is not trying to be lean and muscle alone does not make a person lean. It is the combination of muscle and a good diet that is the advantage. However, these guys have a huge demand for calories and if they watch their diet they would probably burn off fat and improve their body fat percentage much, much easier and faster than someone with the same body weight and less muscle. Again, the difference would be the extra muscle. The point about a Bodybuilder is that they have the system nailed to the extreme. Bodybuilders know how to eat lots of food and have those calories feed lean body mass, not storing those calories as body fat. These guys know how to eat several thousands of calories and have low body fat at the same time. If that muscle was not present those calories would be stored as fat. Again, it comes down to the muscle and the real world end result.

So is your main point that most people are not capable of gaining much muscle and therefore 8 calories per pound isn't really worth the investment of time and energy? If this is the case then we can respectfully agree to disagree? What do you think is our main difference of opinion?

All of this however is not specific advice to anyone in particular.

I fall into the wish I'd lifted more sooner camp. I probably did about 15 minutes resistance training to every 4 hours cardio for about 5 months. About the time I hit my goal weight, I found myself feeling weak at times. I thought maybe I set my goal weight too low. I reset my MFP goal to maintain weight and made a point of incorporating strength exercises or classes around Thanksgiving (3 months ago) and just recently starting feeling stronger. It took a while but it is a very worthwhile and noticeable feeling.

All that being said, I think it is most important to focus on what you enjoy and will stick with FIRST and then contemplate what you can change or add. For me, I love to swim and bike and during the long days of summer thrived on that. Plus pounds were coming off. I regret muscle loss I may have inflicted on myself; but truthfully, I would not have listened to someone tell me to lift weights back then. The resistance training I did was shoulder stabilization exercises to protect my swimming shoulders and trunk, hip strengthening because I have hip arthritis. The point is they related to my biggest motivation at the time - avoid ever having pain in my shoulders and mitigating the pain I had in my hips. I liken it to - its more important to find a way of eating you'll stick with than the one that would help you the most if you did it.