Does IF really cause gallbladder problems?
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yirara
Posts: 9,410 Member
I will probably have to get rid of my gallbladder as it resembles a shingle beach, and I know now that it's been giving me problems for about 18 years. Of the 6 big risk factors only two fit, female and very pale and ginger/blonde. I've never had a child, it's not in the family, I've not been fat ever (just somewhat chubby, in the past 10 years), and it started at around 25, not 40.
Anyway, the internal medicine doctor I saw asked about how I eat and was very much pushing me to tell the frequency of my meals. He said that a large number of women he sees with gallbladder problems do intermittent fasting or just one meal a day, and especially those where it started at a younger age and where there's no family history.
I wonder if there really is something to that considering there are so many women here doing IF. Does anyone have good sources?
Anyway, the internal medicine doctor I saw asked about how I eat and was very much pushing me to tell the frequency of my meals. He said that a large number of women he sees with gallbladder problems do intermittent fasting or just one meal a day, and especially those where it started at a younger age and where there's no family history.
I wonder if there really is something to that considering there are so many women here doing IF. Does anyone have good sources?
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Replies
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I thought it was female, fat (which would include chubby), fertile (not necessarily whether you have children but that you are pre menopause) and 40s (which you are now).
I heard it can be aggravated by low fat diets if you have recently gone onto that, or lower calorie. My friend who had to have hers out was told that it was affected by her reluctance to eat full meals, she used to live off cereal and mashed potato as I recall. I have no idea if that is true.1 -
The only articles I've read that suggested IF wasn't a great choice for women revolved around causing hormonal imbalances, and even those weren't convincing in my opinion. This would be a new one to me. Interested to see what others may have seen.1
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Funny that I saw this post. I came here to see if anyone saw the recent board changes and saw this post. Not only can fasting be an issue for stone production with your gallbladder, but you can actually produce stones after you’ve had it out and that can be more likely with fasting, though that doesn’t mean you absolutely will.
I’m dealing with this now! Have my GB out 2 years ago. I so much prefer IF. But when I really get going on it, I get my symptoms all over again, and I’ve been going to a GI doc, I’m a nurse myself, and it’s mostly likely stones again. Not everyone that fasts will get stones. But they can increase the chance because basically when you fast those secretions are just sitting stagnant (not flowing out to help digest food) and that increases the chance they become solid.
However I do IF because it works for me and because from what I read and researched it helps fight insulin resistance. (Less BS spikes less insulin releases) also I lose weight best with IF fasting.
So I’m going to keep fasting and dealing with stones as they come. I think long term with my health, the bigger fish to fry is I am about 30 lbs over weight and a candidate for diabetes (I have PCOS too) in the future if I don’t address this. Stones are the lesser of two evils for me. HTH0 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3899548/
Three types of abnormalities have been considered to be responsible for cholesterol gallstone formation. Cholesterol supersaturation, the essential requirement for cholesterol gallstone formation, might occur via excessive cholesterol biosynthesis, which is the main lithogenic mechanism in obese persons. In the non-obese, defective conversion of cholesterol to bile acids, due to a low or relatively low activity of cholesterol 7α hydroxylase, the rate limiting enzyme for bile acid biosynthesis and cholesterol elimination could result in excessive cholesterol secretion. Finally, interruption of the enterohepatic circulation of bile acids could increase bile saturation. Temporary interruption of the enterohepatic bile acid circulation during overnight fasting leads to a higher cholesterol/phospholipid ratio in the vesicles secreted by the liver. Estrogen treatment also reduces the synthesis of bile acid in women.[7]
If merely overnight increases ratio - what does 2 x overnight time do?
High biliary protein and lipid concentrations are risk factors for the formation of gallstones. Gallbladder sludge, i.e., thickened gallbladder mucoprotein with tiny entrapped cholesterol crystals is thought to be the usual precursor of gallstones.[32] Sludge can sometimes cause biliary pain, cholecystitis, or acute pancreatitis,[33] but sludge may also resolve without treatment. The sources of sludge are pregnancy,[34] prolonged total parenteral nutrition,[35] starvation, or rapid weight loss.
How much is starvation considered by the body on IF for some systems, if not the rapid weight loss for those on yo-yo diets?1 -
I thought it was female, fat (which would include chubby), fertile (not necessarily whether you have children but that you are pre menopause) and 40s (which you are now).
I heard it can be aggravated by low fat diets if you have recently gone onto that, or lower calorie. My friend who had to have hers out was told that it was affected by her reluctance to eat full meals, she used to live off cereal and mashed potato as I recall. I have no idea if that is true.
Yeah, fertile as in having conceived. That's how I understood it and is generally mentioned in Germany. Well, when this first started I was 59kg, which is on the lower BMI range for me. I got up to 26 in the coming 15 years until I decided enough was enough. Considering a normal upper range BMI is 25 it's not fat but a bit too heavy. And yes, this started when I was about 25 years old (pains, not being able to digest fats properly). Yay to doctors who suggest to just take a paracetamol and get the hell out of their office.0 -
The only articles I've read that suggested IF wasn't a great choice for women revolved around causing hormonal imbalances, and even those weren't convincing in my opinion. This would be a new one to me. Interested to see what others may have seen.
Exactly. I could not find anything either on that. Just found it interesting. I don't do IF, and basically always eating something during daytime. It could be professional bias: this doctor things he's on to something and this is confirmed when he encounters something that fits. And forgets the many people that don't fit.0 -
The only articles I've read that suggested IF wasn't a great choice for women revolved around causing hormonal imbalances, and even those weren't convincing in my opinion. This would be a new one to me. Interested to see what others may have seen.
Exactly. I could not find anything either on that. Just found it interesting. I don't do IF, and basically always eating something during daytime. It could be professional bias: this doctor things he's on to something and this is confirmed when he encounters something that fits. And forgets the many people that don't fit.
I thought this was common knowledge in the medical community, that stagnation in the gallbladder increases the chance for sludge and stones. But I’d have to look to see if there’s actually studies supporting this1 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3899548/
Three types of abnormalities have been considered to be responsible for cholesterol gallstone formation. Cholesterol supersaturation, the essential requirement for cholesterol gallstone formation, might occur via excessive cholesterol biosynthesis, which is the main lithogenic mechanism in obese persons. In the non-obese, defective conversion of cholesterol to bile acids, due to a low or relatively low activity of cholesterol 7α hydroxylase, the rate limiting enzyme for bile acid biosynthesis and cholesterol elimination could result in excessive cholesterol secretion. Finally, interruption of the enterohepatic circulation of bile acids could increase bile saturation. Temporary interruption of the enterohepatic bile acid circulation during overnight fasting leads to a higher cholesterol/phospholipid ratio in the vesicles secreted by the liver. Estrogen treatment also reduces the synthesis of bile acid in women.[7]
If merely overnight increases ratio - what does 2 x overnight time do?
High biliary protein and lipid concentrations are risk factors for the formation of gallstones. Gallbladder sludge, i.e., thickened gallbladder mucoprotein with tiny entrapped cholesterol crystals is thought to be the usual precursor of gallstones.[32] Sludge can sometimes cause biliary pain, cholecystitis, or acute pancreatitis,[33] but sludge may also resolve without treatment. The sources of sludge are pregnancy,[34] prolonged total parenteral nutrition,[35] starvation, or rapid weight loss.
How much is starvation considered by the body on IF for some systems, if not the rapid weight loss for those on yo-yo diets?
Oh, that's very interesting! I don't think I could fast two times overnight as I can barely go 2-3 hours without eating anything. But some people seem to enjoy it. Thanks for the quote!0 -
Btw this doesn’t mean everyone that fasts will gets stones nor that everyone that gets stones has a history of fasting. It is merely a risk factor2
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Kimmie827mfp wrote: »The only articles I've read that suggested IF wasn't a great choice for women revolved around causing hormonal imbalances, and even those weren't convincing in my opinion. This would be a new one to me. Interested to see what others may have seen.
Exactly. I could not find anything either on that. Just found it interesting. I don't do IF, and basically always eating something during daytime. It could be professional bias: this doctor things he's on to something and this is confirmed when he encounters something that fits. And forgets the many people that don't fit.
I thought this was common knowledge in the medical community, that stagnation in the gallbladder increases the chance for sludge and stones. But I’d have to look to see if there’s actually studies supporting this
It might be. I'm not medically trained, and this whole gallbladder issue is new to me *sigh*0 -
Kimmie827mfp wrote: »Btw this doesn’t mean everyone that fasts will gets stones nor that everyone that gets stones has a history of fasting. It is merely a risk factor
Of course. Would be interesting to see how those various factors increase the risk, and how they compound.0 -
That’s the first hit on google. I’m not going to look up any more but assuming if JH has it listed then it’s been studied to some degree. But feel free to google studies
Hope this helps 1 -
Got me concerned now - yesterday with marathon car repair going on from late afternoon until 11pm, I didn't eat until 1am. Not super common, but until 11 not unheard of, so 23 hr fast easily done for me.1
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Got me concerned now - yesterday with marathon car repair going on from late afternoon until 11pm, I didn't eat until 1am. Not super common, but until 11 not unheard of, so 23 hr fast easily done for me.
I don't think a single fast will have any influence. Every day though? Good question, maybe if you have the genetic disposition for it.2 -
I can't prove there's a connection but two years ago when I was counting calories and eating low-fat, I allowed myself one cheat day a week where I could eat whatever I wanted. Naturally I wanted pizza, fast food, ice cream, etc. I didn't keep track but I was probably eating massive amounts of fat that one day a week. It wasn't long after that I started having upper abdominal pain which gradually worsened and turned into back pain as well and long story short I ended up in the ER with severe gallbladder disease and pancreatitis. I had surgery to remove my gallbladder and spent six days in the hospital. I never had any gallbladder problems prior to that and so I definitely think my diet was the cause.0
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I've had gallbladder problems since 2015 when I did IF (Fast-5) for several months.
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Hi Yara, I'm sorry to read of your present difficulties.
You may find adding a glass of warm water with a good squeeze of lemon juice first thing in the morning might start to help you. (I have half a lemon in mine) Having a good fluid intake is also helpful. You could also increase you intake of "bitter" flavours in your diet, kale and radicchio, sharp onion flavours, garlic and leek along with carrot will help to ease bile flow so it does not sit thickening. Beetroots are also good. They help the liver work more effectively in creating bile. Improving ones digestive biome can also help. You could try drinking butter milk and yoghurt both should help. There are also various products on the market to assist one's digestive biome. Cutting back on simple sugars can also help.
Poor bile flow can be associated with low thyroid function, slow transit, along with issues digesting sugars. Its just one of the many ways such a simple sounding issue can have multifaceted problems associated with them.
I'm wondering, your needing to eat every few hours, is it hunger, or more complicatedly to avoid discomfort of some kind?
IF, in the absence of stones, gives the liver more time to complete the full 4 stages is it of elimination of "life by-products". It seems eating, as in continuous grazing, resets the system to its start stage, allowing a little longer between meals could facilitate something of this sort, I vaguely remember 5 hours from somewhere. When the bile is more free flowing the difficulties should ease. The usual over night fast is enough for most people. (My sister has managed to avoid surgery for several years now by diet)
There are many studies on this issue. You could start with improving bile flow. May be Bitter flavours for health, I hope you can avoid surgery. All the very best and take care.2 -
My gallbladder kicked off in my early 20's - they didnt know why, only that it became inflammed and never settled no matter what they gave me drugswise. I had to reduce fat a lot to prevent it from kicking off - I would say that leaving long gaps between eating AND drinking also made it more grumpy. So for me, (unintentional) IF didnt cause the issues with my GB, but it def made things worse once there were issues.
OP to you point about 'take the painkiller and move on lady' - I really had to persist with the doctors (UK) before they would take it out. I had to turn up for 3 appointments 3 months apart for someone to prod it quite hard to see if I would still go white and swear (which I did, with bells on).
Was so glad to have that bad boy out - it was only once it was removed that I realised how it had had a much wider impact on my wellbeing and life in general.
Oh, and I got to eat cheese again !0 -
I'm wondering, your needing to eat every few hours, is it hunger, or more complicatedly to avoid discomfort of some kind?
More complicated than that, really. As too much fats are out of the equation for me and too much protein causes reflux there's only carbs left. Plus some energy storage/release issue that's still undiagnosed.0
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