Keto diet
Ashlove5
Posts: 152 Member
Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
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For me, Keto is too restrictive and would be very hard to maintain long term. You don't need it to lose weight. and that goes for all the other fad diets.....The only thing you need is staying at a calorie deficit consistently.15
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Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
It be pretty hard to make an agrument for it being the "healthiest". I am sure some people believe that because of all the misinformation that has been spread about carbs over the years. But you will find a lot of registered dieticians urge caution about Keto from a nutritional standpoint, as the diet can be high in Saturated fats, low in fiber, and low in important vitamins and minerals from fruits and vegetables. Someone being mindful while practicing Keto can control for some of these things, as it is possible to get fiber, fruits and veggies, etc on Keto, but it makes a difficult to practice diet even more difficult.
I think the reason it's gotten so popular is because it's been billed as an "eat whatever you want as long as it doesn't have carbs and you will lose weight fast" diet. And in a very narrow sense, that is true, because when you first start Keto, you deplete your glyogen stores (stored carbs), which are stored with water weight. So someone on Keto, no matter how much they eat, will likely lose several quick pounds in the beginning. That's why claims of 10 pounds in the first week or two aren't uncommon. But that's not real fat burn. If you ever go off of Keto, that weight comes back as your body replenishes them. So unless one does Keto their whole life, those pounds aren't permanent pounds. You also can't "eat whatever you want" on Keto and still burn fat in the long run. A calorie is a calorie, and a calorie surplus is the same whether it is Keto or not Keto calories. So the only way Keto works is with a calorie deficit. Long term, it hasn't proven any more effective than a normal calorie restricted diet in losing weight.
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nighthawk584 wrote: »For me, Keto is too restrictive and would be very hard to maintain long term. You don't need it to lose weight. and that goes for all the other fad diets.....The only thing you need is staying at a calorie deficit consistently.
I agree. A diet (and I don't really like that word, but don't have a good alternative) should work for your lifestyle with a goal of being able to maintain long term. Find something that works for you and that you know you can maintain. Consistency is key.4 -
I didn’t find it to be that great of a diet. It’s the kind of diet that really messed with my head game. You become so focused on the negativity of all the foods you can’t eat. You’re always saying to yourself I can’t I can’t I can’t. And when you do eat something non keto then it can be very easy to turn that day into a binge day and for me binge days turn into binge weeks. I had a lot more success with counting calories and rewarding myself with things I enjoy eating every single day.10
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Keto is not for me. Apart from the fact I love carbs, when I had to follow a keto diet for three weeks (pre surgery) it was horrid. My breath smelled so bad and my teeth were constantly furry (it’s been three months and I still don’t feel like I can get them clean!). And other bodily functions were a bit off as well. There’s plenty of articles out there about the side effects.
I did lose a lot of weight in those three weeks, but any benefits I was getting definitely do not outweigh the side effects for me.2 -
Keto is not for me. Apart from the fact I love carbs, when I had to follow a keto diet for three weeks (pre surgery) it was horrid. My breath smelled so bad and my teeth were constantly furry (it’s been three months and I still don’t feel like I can get them clean!). And other bodily functions were a bit off as well. There’s plenty of articles out there about the side effects.
I did lose a lot of water weight in those three weeks, but any benefits I was getting definitely do not outweigh the side effects for me.
FIFY.
All successful weight loss methods employ calorie restriction in one way or another. That's just how weight loss works. Many different vehicles, but they all travel on the very same road.
And whatever method is chosen will only make a lasting difference if it can be sustained beyond just the losing weight phase and right into maintenance. So, making changes that you can employ go forward as well is key to taking - and keeping - the weight off.
With something like keto, everyone going into it needs to think, for example, "Am I willing to give up most of my carbs forever?" If the answer is no, there's likely no point in doing it in the first place.
And this applies to *any* diet that restricts or eliminates a particular food group. Not just keto.
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It works for me because it forces me to stay away from bread, pasta, added sugar, etc..
I feel that it’s good for short term and for people who want to lose weight fast. Take that with a grain of salt...but it truly works for ME.4 -
Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
Any diet can be healthy or unhealthy. They all can be deficient in some kind of nutrient depending on how you implement it. The most healthy diet out there is the one that will help you lose weight... the one that focuses on whole foods.. and the one that you will enjoy the most. The biggest health contributors are weight loss and exercise. Things like fibrous foods, oily fish and diets high in MUFA/PUFA (non omega 6) can improve health even more.
I have tried a lot of diets and keto is near the top of my favorites. I have done IF, Paleo, keto, basic calorie counting, IIFYM/flexible dieting, and a few others. Keto has done several things for me that other diets didn't do for me.
Pros:
Eliminated junk food cravings
Helped make me less hungry and go longer periods of time once I got into ketosis
Helped me consume more fish and avocados (this is huge for me)
Helped get me leaner than any other diet
Has doubled my HDLs
Cons:
Hurts my gym performance a bit
Get cramps you don't focus on electrolytes
Where this diet tends to shine and have the biggest impact, if with those people who have metabolic and/or autoimmune disorders. This is where you will get people talking about the improved mental clarity, more stable energy levels, etc...
The diet is rather anti-inflammatory (not to suggest others aren't) since it eliminates several of the main triggers for people (added sugars, grains, etc...).
But yes, you can certainly improve things with or without a ketogenic diet. Ultimately, you will have to figure out what works for you. For me, diets are like tools. You can use them when you need you. You don't need to follow a diet for your entire life. You can cycle through them whenever you need them.... which is no different than calorie counting. For me, I will use keto during my weight loss/cutting phases and add in carbs while I am bulking or maintaining (still probably be low carb though).
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Do you guys like the keto diet?
I think it can be an easier or more sustainable choice for some people. Personally, I saw no particular benefits for me and some negatives (I think my diet not on keto is healthier), so I don't care for it for me.Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ?
I don't know that "so many" do, and most really pushing it as the best choice evah for all have some sort of reputational or financial stake that makes them biased, IMO. I think it's certainly not the healthiest of all options, but like any decent diet (i.e, not ridiculous 2 week fad diet or something that cuts out important foods like vegetables entirely), I think it can be done in a healthy manner, one that makes it comparable to other healthy ways of eating. (And like other ways of eating it can be done in an unhealthy, unbalanced manner that makes the diet unhealthy, and is prone to certain specific deficiencies -- but that is true for basically any way of eating that is not specifically focused on nutrient needs (or based on existing habits of eating a nutrient sufficient diet, I'm not saying you have to watch this super carefully at all times). Worth noting that whatever the diet eating at a deficit makes getting in all nutrients regularly a bit more difficult.)Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
IMO, yes, if what you mean by "eat healthy" = make sure the diet covers nutritional needs and is calorie appropriate.3 -
If your diet makes you smell bad, that’s your body’s way of telling you it’s not good for you (google it). I roll my eyes every time someone (usually looking for a shortcut) mentions trying keto. To lose weight, calories in & calories out is very simply it.2
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Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.4 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
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I started Keto a week ago. My reason for starting it is because I am a diabetic and It has come to the point where the smallest amount of carbs raises my blood sugar. I had a kidney removed last July due to cancer in one of them. They put me on insulin since I can no longer take Metformin. I would like to get off the insulin so the best way to do that is to get my glucose under control. I have found Keto not to be that difficult for me. It is expensive, though, making your own bread and desserts or even buying them can be costly. The great news is in this last week my Blood glucose readings have gone way down! Also, I could stand to lose about 20 pounds, I lost 2.5 last week. I am eating healthy. lots of veggies, good fats such as avocados, nuts, eggs, and meat. I am a carb lover so being able to eat bready type foods keeps me from feeling deprived. Hope this helps. Have a Blessed day.5
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His wording was "you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates", so your question of "nutrients do you miss out on" is a bit of a misrepresentation. He didn't claim you can't get the nutrients, but the implication is it will require a more managed approach as foods that make it easier to get the nutrients will be harder.cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
Institute of Medicine puts fiber for a male is 30-38g a day, so you're below that.
Your cholesterol levels / metabolic panel numbers can easily be a reflection of composition more than nutrient uptake. When you are in shape, the range of what can be optimal is different. Most people coming from obese or overweight trying to follow a keto diet are probably not going setting goals for being a leaner composition and are just hoping to get to something like 20% body fat (male).
It is interesting how often keto people want to compare an "ideal keto" diet to SAD instead of some kind of ideal unrestricted diet. Like, just in all honest, when people say "I'm doing keto, and it doesn't feel like dieting", do you think they're doing keto the way you are? What I'll grant is anything that puts weight off for some length of time is probably good.7 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »
His wording was "you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates", so your question of "nutrients do you miss out on" is a bit of a misrepresentation. He didn't claim you can't get the nutrients, but the implication is it will require a more managed approach as foods that make it easier to get the nutrients will be harder.cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
Institute of Medicine puts fiber for a male is 30-38g a day, so you're below that.
Your cholesterol levels / metabolic panel numbers can easily be a reflection of composition more than nutrient uptake. When you are in shape, the range of what can be optimal is different. Most people coming from obese or overweight trying to follow a keto diet are probably not going setting goals for being a leaner composition and are just hoping to get to something like 20% body fat (male).
It is interesting how often keto people want to compare an "ideal keto" diet to SAD instead of some kind of ideal unrestricted diet. Like, just in all honest, when people say "I'm doing keto, and it doesn't feel like dieting", do you think they're doing keto the way you are? What I'll grant is anything that puts weight off for some length of time is probably good.
I would never compare a well structured keto diet vs a SAD diet. It's ridiculous and I am not sure where that is even coming from. Second, I think you are projecting a bit with the bold. It's not any more difficult for me to hit my needs as it was when I followed IIFYM/Flexible dieting. I still aim to get a color array of vegetables with my proteins. Add in incorporation of healthy fat sources and call it a day. I will note that any time someone switches to a different diet, they will have to research a bit to figure out what is needed.
There are several considerations needed regarding the recommendations for fiber. First, most of the evidence behind those recommendations are based on epidemiological and observations studies. There are little to no research on low carb and/or ketogenic diets when it comes to most things diet, let alone specifically as it relates to fiber. It's quite possible that those recommendations are high because of the needs to offset some of the added sugars and processes carbs (breads, pasta, etc..) that is consumed by the general populous.
IRT the obese individuals. I certainly don't disagree with you. Any diet that will help people lose weight, will improve their metabolic health. So even if they follow a lower fiber diet, it will still be better if they lose 10 or 20% body weight. It certainly happened with me. It's a lot more demanding to have high triglycerides, high blood glucose, high blood pressure, etc..
IRT do others keto diet look like mine? Yes, no, maybe. Again, there is a spectrum of people consuming ketogenic diets. The same thing can be said for IIFYM. IIFYM gets a bad name because people often promote how they can eat donuts, poptarts and other crap and still get ripped. But I also know that isn't the heart of IIFYM. In the low carb group, there is a large contingent that have similar styles. Similarly, a lot of people I follow on IG, are the same way. But I also know a bunch of people eating hot dogs, bacon and skipping all carbs because carbs = scary insulin.
In generally, I do think it is often beneficial for the general populous to replace carbs with fats and protein. If you look at a large majority of LCHF ab libitum studies, there is either equal or greater weight loss in the LCHF group. This isn't to suggest that LC>LF, but it should given consideration when a person starts dieting.
IRT blood work. Yes, I recognize it's a snapshot in time. This is why you get regular blood test. I have looked at mind over the past 10 years, and they all support similar finds. The only changes I have had is I doubled my HDL with keto and increased my LDL from 120 to 178.
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Well I didn't say you made the comparison. I said keto people do.magnusthenerd wrote: »
His wording was "you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates", so your question of "nutrients do you miss out on" is a bit of a misrepresentation. He didn't claim you can't get the nutrients, but the implication is it will require a more managed approach as foods that make it easier to get the nutrients will be harder.cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
Institute of Medicine puts fiber for a male is 30-38g a day, so you're below that.
Your cholesterol levels / metabolic panel numbers can easily be a reflection of composition more than nutrient uptake. When you are in shape, the range of what can be optimal is different. Most people coming from obese or overweight trying to follow a keto diet are probably not going setting goals for being a leaner composition and are just hoping to get to something like 20% body fat (male).
It is interesting how often keto people want to compare an "ideal keto" diet to SAD instead of some kind of ideal unrestricted diet. Like, just in all honest, when people say "I'm doing keto, and it doesn't feel like dieting", do you think they're doing keto the way you are? What I'll grant is anything that puts weight off for some length of time is probably good.
I would never compare a well structured keto diet vs a SAD diet. It's ridiculous and I am not sure where that is even coming from. Second, I think you are projecting a bit with the bold. It's not any more difficult for me to hit my needs as it was when I followed IIFYM/Flexible dieting. I still aim to get a color array of vegetables with my proteins. Add in incorporation of healthy fat sources and call it a day. I will note that any time someone switches to a different diet, they will have to research a bit to figure out what is needed.
There are several considerations needed regarding the recommendations for fiber. First, most of the evidence behind those recommendations are based on epidemiological and observations studies. There are little to no research on low carb and/or ketogenic diets when it comes to most things diet, let alone specifically as it relates to fiber. It's quite possible that those recommendations are high because of the needs to offset some of the added sugars and processes carbs (breads, pasta, etc..) that is consumed by the general populous.
IRT the obese individuals. I certainly don't disagree with you. Any diet that will help people lose weight, will improve their metabolic health. So even if they follow a lower fiber diet, it will still be better if they lose 10 or 20% body weight. It certainly happened with me. It's a lot more demanding to have high triglycerides, high blood glucose, high blood pressure, etc..
IRT do others keto diet look like mine? Yes, no, maybe. Again, there is a spectrum of people consuming ketogenic diets. The same thing can be said for IIFYM. IIFYM gets a bad name because people often promote how they can eat donuts, poptarts and other crap and still get ripped. But I also know that isn't the heart of IIFYM. In the low carb group, there is a large contingent that have similar styles. Similarly, a lot of people I follow on IG, are the same way. But I also know a bunch of people eating hot dogs, bacon and skipping all carbs because carbs = scary insulin.
In generally, I do think it is often beneficial for the general populous to replace carbs with fats and protein. If you look at a large majority of LCHF ab libitum studies, there is either equal or greater weight loss in the LCHF group. This isn't to suggest that LC>LF, but it should given consideration when a person starts dieting.
IRT blood work. Yes, I recognize it's a snapshot in time. This is why you get regular blood test. I have looked at mind over the past 10 years, and they all support similar finds. The only changes I have had is I doubled my HDL with keto and increased my LDL from 120 to 178.
Seems calling projecting is just an endless back and forth. I actually pointed out what he said, and what you said. Your comment just comes off as an unevidenced assertion. That, if anything, comes off as projecting. You literally did ask a question about a statement he didn't make. I'm not attributing anything to it. I understand perfectly how in reading the spirit of it, it is possible to think that's a valid question to raise, but literally, you're asking him to support a statement he didn't claim. Unless you're saying the part that is projecting is where I say "the implication is". Then you're saying it is projecting that I'm being charitable about how you came to ask your question by stating the implication you seem to be question. I mean, maybe I am projecting and you're just asking random questions at people for no reason to put them on a back foot, but that would be bizarre, so perhaps I do need to project some, like people are asking questions related to the conversation.
I don't follow why pointing to the unknowns of a diet is supposed to be a defense. It would see, then you still can't say you're getting adequate fiber. You've changed to "I don't know that I'm getting inadequate fiber." Fair enough. Given the lack of research in the field, I don't see why you conclude "it is quite possible," rather than just "possible."
Blood panels improve when losing weight for most males, even when not obese, but yes, the primary benefit is in an individual lowering the obese status. My understanding is the metabolic panels of starving contest prep body builders suggest they're about to live forever, not have problems doing their next set if they don't have a preworkout carbs.
IRT ad libitum - you're using a slight of hand there. Replacing carbs with "fats and protein" to capture the effects of protein but act like it is the fat is not very genuine representation of ketogenic diet. Particularly as protein can knock someone out of ketosis. And treating LC as keto.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
Well I didn't say you made the comparison. I said keto people do.magnusthenerd wrote: »
His wording was "you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates", so your question of "nutrients do you miss out on" is a bit of a misrepresentation. He didn't claim you can't get the nutrients, but the implication is it will require a more managed approach as foods that make it easier to get the nutrients will be harder.cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
Institute of Medicine puts fiber for a male is 30-38g a day, so you're below that.
Your cholesterol levels / metabolic panel numbers can easily be a reflection of composition more than nutrient uptake. When you are in shape, the range of what can be optimal is different. Most people coming from obese or overweight trying to follow a keto diet are probably not going setting goals for being a leaner composition and are just hoping to get to something like 20% body fat (male).
It is interesting how often keto people want to compare an "ideal keto" diet to SAD instead of some kind of ideal unrestricted diet. Like, just in all honest, when people say "I'm doing keto, and it doesn't feel like dieting", do you think they're doing keto the way you are? What I'll grant is anything that puts weight off for some length of time is probably good.
I would never compare a well structured keto diet vs a SAD diet. It's ridiculous and I am not sure where that is even coming from. Second, I think you are projecting a bit with the bold. It's not any more difficult for me to hit my needs as it was when I followed IIFYM/Flexible dieting. I still aim to get a color array of vegetables with my proteins. Add in incorporation of healthy fat sources and call it a day. I will note that any time someone switches to a different diet, they will have to research a bit to figure out what is needed.
There are several considerations needed regarding the recommendations for fiber. First, most of the evidence behind those recommendations are based on epidemiological and observations studies. There are little to no research on low carb and/or ketogenic diets when it comes to most things diet, let alone specifically as it relates to fiber. It's quite possible that those recommendations are high because of the needs to offset some of the added sugars and processes carbs (breads, pasta, etc..) that is consumed by the general populous.
IRT the obese individuals. I certainly don't disagree with you. Any diet that will help people lose weight, will improve their metabolic health. So even if they follow a lower fiber diet, it will still be better if they lose 10 or 20% body weight. It certainly happened with me. It's a lot more demanding to have high triglycerides, high blood glucose, high blood pressure, etc..
IRT do others keto diet look like mine? Yes, no, maybe. Again, there is a spectrum of people consuming ketogenic diets. The same thing can be said for IIFYM. IIFYM gets a bad name because people often promote how they can eat donuts, poptarts and other crap and still get ripped. But I also know that isn't the heart of IIFYM. In the low carb group, there is a large contingent that have similar styles. Similarly, a lot of people I follow on IG, are the same way. But I also know a bunch of people eating hot dogs, bacon and skipping all carbs because carbs = scary insulin.
In generally, I do think it is often beneficial for the general populous to replace carbs with fats and protein. If you look at a large majority of LCHF ab libitum studies, there is either equal or greater weight loss in the LCHF group. This isn't to suggest that LC>LF, but it should given consideration when a person starts dieting.
IRT blood work. Yes, I recognize it's a snapshot in time. This is why you get regular blood test. I have looked at mind over the past 10 years, and they all support similar finds. The only changes I have had is I doubled my HDL with keto and increased my LDL from 120 to 178.
Seems calling projecting is just an endless back and forth. I actually pointed out what he said, and what you said. Your comment just comes off as an unevidenced assertion. That, if anything, comes off as projecting. You literally did ask a question about a statement he didn't make. I'm not attributing anything to it. I understand perfectly how in reading the spirit of it, it is possible to think that's a valid question to raise, but literally, you're asking him to support a statement he didn't claim. Unless you're saying the part that is projecting is where I say "the implication is". Then you're saying it is projecting that I'm being charitable about how you came to ask your question by stating the implication you seem to be question. I mean, maybe I am projecting and you're just asking random questions at people for no reason to put them on a back foot, but that would be bizarre, so perhaps I do need to project some, like people are asking questions related to the conversation.
I don't follow why pointing to the unknowns of a diet is supposed to be a defense. It would see, then you still can't say you're getting adequate fiber. You've changed to "I don't know that I'm getting inadequate fiber." Fair enough. Given the lack of research in the field, I don't see why you conclude "it is quite possible," rather than just "possible."
Blood panels improve when losing weight for most males, even when not obese, but yes, the primary benefit is in an individual lowering the obese status. My understanding is the metabolic panels of starving contest prep body builders suggest they're about to live forever, not have problems doing their next set if they don't have a preworkout carbs.
IRT ad libitum - you're using a slight of hand there. Replacing carbs with "fats and protein" to capture the effects of protein but act like it is the fat is not very genuine representation of ketogenic diet. Particularly as protein can knock someone out of ketosis. And treating LC as keto.
If @cwolfman13 has concerns about my question to him, I would expect he would come back rather than a third party interjecting their own evaluation of my question to his question. So it's not worth arguing over.
For the bold. Extrapolation of evidence to a group people who do not follow that specific way of eating, is just that... extrapolation. Given the amount of arguments most people make regarding observational studies, I am surprised you are trying to use the RDA as a means to validate the requirement. But I suspect it's because it supports your argument. Essentially, it's like trying to use a study on muscle gains on a young male population and extrapolating the results to older females.
I am not using slight of hand. I am pointing out that there is data to support LCHF dieting. I don't deny the benefits of protein for satiety; That is well documented. Although, I think it was Menno Henselman who was challenge it being just protein as different protein sources can have a different impact. But if the main driver for a person to get more protein is to consume less carbs, than it's something that should be considered. Again, I lost 50 lbs almost a decade ago consuming 300g of carbs a day. So I understand the impacts on macros changes. Additionally, there is pretty good evidence supporting appetite suppression on ketogenic diets. And that data isn't from your typical keto zealot (i.e., Thomas DeLauer), it's from people like Eric Helms.
Protein knocking you out of ketosis is way overstated. And even if it does suppress ketone production a bit, it doesn't matter. It is only a consideration for those on a therapeutic ketogenic diet. Ironically, this is typically the same nonsense promoted by keto zealots. So I am surprised you bring it up.3 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
Not that you can't get the nutrients you need, but I think it can be far more difficult and the diet would need to be well structured and managed. I don't think average Joe jumping on the keto wagon is typically going to have the nutritional where with all to ensure they don't become nutritionally deficient, especially those that are doing the 20 grams of carbs or less thing. I have heard that folate is one of the more common deficiencies, along with biotin. I would have a hard time personally getting fiber...I eat plenty of veg and whatnot, but my primary sources of high fiber are oats, beans, lentils, root vegetables, etc. I've even had keto people here tell me flat out that fiber isn't important anyway and then post a link to some blog telling me why. Anecdotally, my dad did Adkins years ago and he barely touched a vegetable...it was bacon and eggs and beef pretty much all the time.
I just think that anytime you are restricting a macronutrient to the point that keto does, it makes nutrition more difficult than just eating a varied diet consisting largely of whole foods. It requires a broader knowledge of nutrition that most people don't have, whereas deep down I think most people know what constitutes quality nutrition and if they're eating a broad spectrum of veg, fruit, whole grains, legumes, lean meats and healthy fats, they will be just fine without really having to think about it.9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Do you guys like the keto diet? Why do so many people think it’s the healthiest out there ? Shouldn’t we be fine as long as we watch how we eat and eat healthy mostly ?
All diets work the same way...they are simply methods of creating a calorie deficit. Keto was initially a medical diet for the treatment of epilepsy...you can lose, maintain, or gain weight on keto just like any other diet.
Personally, keto is way to restrictive and you miss out on a lot of highly nutritious foods eating that low of carbohydrates. "People" make all kinds of claims and often diet is pretty close to religion in people thinking "my way is best". Personally I think keto is one of the most unhealthy diet plans out there because you do miss out on a lot of micro nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc) and regardless of what keto blogs say, I don't think eating *kitten* loads of dietary fat, especially saturated fat is healthy.
What nutrients do you miss out on while following keto? I have no nutrients deficiencies and my metabolic panels are great. Like i stated before, you can implement any strategy in a healthy or unhealthy way.
My diet is largely Angus beef, chicken, eggs, leafy greens, seeds/nuts, berries (raspberries, blackberries, and strawberries), dairy (mostly unsweetened Greek yogurt), dark leafy greens/salad, avocado (almost daily) and fish (ahi tuna and salmon). And my goal is 20-30g of fiber a day. I also cook in olive oil and avocado oil or i use Irish butter. And have been working to eliminate all Omega 6 highly refined oils.
The only current "dirty" keto stuff i am doing is nutritional sweeteners and tomorrow will be my last Quest bar.
Side note and this isn't directed at you, but I always find it ironic when people talk about the unhealthy aspects of Keto while they promote eating added sugar because it fits their macros.
Not that you can't get the nutrients you need, but I think it can be far more difficult and the diet would need to be well structured and managed. I don't think average Joe jumping on the keto wagon is typically going to have the nutritional where with all to ensure they don't become nutritionally deficient, especially those that are doing the 20 grams of carbs or less thing. I have heard that folate is one of the more common deficiencies, along with biotin. I would have a hard time personally getting fiber...I eat plenty of veg and whatnot, but my primary sources of high fiber are oats, beans, lentils, root vegetables, etc. I've even had keto people here tell me flat out that fiber isn't important anyway and then post a link to some blog telling me why. Anecdotally, my dad did Adkins years ago and he barely touched a vegetable...it was bacon and eggs and beef pretty much all the time.
I just think that anytime you are restricting a macronutrient to the point that keto does, it makes nutrition more difficult than just eating a varied diet consisting largely of whole foods. It requires a broader knowledge of nutrition that most people don't have, whereas deep down I think most people know what constitutes quality nutrition and if they're eating a broad spectrum of veg, fruit, whole grains, legumes, lean meats and healthy fats, they will be just fine without really having to think about it.
I certainly understand where you are coming from. I suspect there are a few types of people who are following the keto or low carb diet. 1. The following the newest fad (which I believe is now shifting towards IF over keto). 2. Those with autoimmune disorders and 3. Those who need something strict/structured. For those first group of people, I would certainly agree that there is probably a larger benefit to trying to get a varied diet that focuses on calorie control and portions. It's how I started and its one of the first things I preach; start consuming more whole foods, aim to get lean sources of protein and plenty of fruits and vegetables, and get rid of ultra processed foods, deserts and added sugars. For the last 2 groups, strict diets like Keto, Whole 30, Paleo, and LCHF might have a much greater impact on their health. Given my personal experience, I am starting to see more people fall into the latter two categories. I tried for 3 years to get sub 173 by just calorie counting, following a high protein and fiber diet, and using a food scale. It never worked. And given my wife has had 8 surgeries in 8 years, has struggled with weight because an autonomic disorder (and the surgeries), I decided to go a bit more radical and structured. I am leaner now than I ever was and my wife is seeing progress.
In the end, people have to start somewhere. If it's Keto, then so be it. It's the first step in the right direction to help them lose weight and improve health. And the only way to know if something is going to be successful or not is to try it themselves and take an active roll in their health.
IRT the need for fiber. Yes, there is currently a hypothesis that fiber may not be a requirement or have less of a reduced requirement on a ketogenic or carnivore diet due to the fermentation process driven from beta hydroxybutyrate in the gut. It's a rather fascinating concept, but I don't think there is a ton of evidence to support it. I do believe that some fiber is very beneficial. I don't think it has to be 30-38g as I think there are a lot of other factors that can influence gut health.
IRT biotin/folate. Interesting, a good amount of the foods that contain high levels of those should be in a ketogenic diet. But again, I can see where some people would fail if they don't like those "veggies".
Another thing to note, the implementation of the keto diet will depend on their source of data.
6 -
There is alot of controversy around Keto, but it honestly is all how you track your meals and food. I personally do keto and I love it. I eat 1500 cals a day, and I still eat veggies and some fruits. I just track it all! With fruit I do only eat berries. But I have veggies with almost every meal. All I do differently is add more oil or unsalted butter when cooking, eat more fatty foods like avocados (which I love).
I worry about net carbs, which are different then total carbs. Net carbs are ur carbs - fiber. I try to keep under 30 net carbs but I can also stay in ketosis at 50 net carbs.
For example tonight I made my own version of chicken wings and onions rings cause I been craving them lol, so I did. It's simple and easy. I LOVE it. I dont feel restricted and I just love the way the food taste. You dont only have to eat bacon and cheese or eggs. U can make anything you want. I got this blood tester thing to make sure I would stay in ketosis and I haven't had a problem. Just do ur research. 1 -
It's a big trend at the moment. It helps some people to maintain a calorie deficit although I've read that keeping to it long term is difficult so therefore it's no better than any other "diet" over a complete, sustainable lifestyle change. For me, restricting certain foods or food groups is absolutely unhealthy as I have a history of an eating disorder; restricting/banning leads to unhealthy relationships with food and bingeing.4
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Yes. No. Maybe.0
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Also when people on this ''Diet" say fiber doesn't matter is because we subtract the fiber from the carbs to give us net carbs,
That way we can still eat veggies and fruit. Anyone who doesn't eat veggies or fruit on this diet doesnt honestly understand what they are doing and need to do more research. No offense. Every day I hit my macros and my calories and i feel great. Sure it isn't for everyone and thats okay, but putting it down or dismissing it because you dont truly understand it is not okay. Do your research and find out what it truly is. I dont go out to McDonalds and buy burgers. Nope I make them at home, if I do have a date night I go out and get a protein with veggies or salad and guess what? Still losing weight and still in ketosis.
Saying all this, in the same sense yes I'm still restricting my calories and no matter what if u restrict u will lose weight but I have having a hard time keeping full when I was still eating carbs and sugar. I felt hungry alllll the time. Now I feel like I'm full and feel satisfied from my meals. It's not for everyone, I get that, but if it works for you it's worth a try. 0 -
I did keto for 2 years for migraine control. I'm still low carb, and sometimes keto level carbs.
Not having migraines is absolutely magical, and no one will ever convince me that something that painful is not causing some kind of permanent brain damage. It's also a massive quality of life improvement not having migraines. I would classify that as way healthier for me.
I enjoyed keto because the foods are so yum...and I tend toward eating relatively low protein, so it did make it a lot easier to get my protein intake up since you get to eat lots and lots of meats.
Trying to lose weight on keto was super hard for me - the foods tend to be high in calories, it's very easy to go over. Some people get reduced appetite, but not everyone, and not me. Lots of greens and non starchy veggies were easy for me, they are foods I already like. If the only veggies you like are potatoes and corn, then you aren't going to like keto. I've never been super crazy about fruit and don't eat it most of the time anyway, so didn't miss it, but if fruit is something you enjoy daily, then you aren't going to like keto.
Keto is definitely not required for weight loss. It has been found to be very helpful for a variety of neurological issues. It has been found to be very helpful for some metabolic issues. For weight loss, it's just like any other diet, you have to consume less than you expend.3 -
Like they all said - its a matter of it restricting calories. And it can be as healthy or unhealthy as you are prepared to make it. Like any way of eating. However, the gut feeling I have about keto/paleo is that I feel very uncomfortable PERSONALLY about a regime that GENERALLY is promoting eating a diet that is environmentally damaging. Meat, and particularly beef are the biggest offenders in that department. So that's my view - I'm sure a lot of people don't agree and that is fine by me!0
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Rishaschultz94 wrote: »Also when people on this ''Diet" say fiber doesn't matter is because we subtract the fiber from the carbs to give us net carbs,
That way we can still eat veggies and fruit. Anyone who doesn't eat veggies or fruit on this diet doesnt honestly understand what they are doing and need to do more research. No offense. Every day I hit my macros and my calories and i feel great. Sure it isn't for everyone and thats okay, but putting it down or dismissing it because you dont truly understand it is not okay. Do your research and find out what it truly is. I dont go out to McDonalds and buy burgers. Nope I make them at home, if I do have a date night I go out and get a protein with veggies or salad and guess what? Still losing weight and still in ketosis.
Saying all this, in the same sense yes I'm still restricting my calories and no matter what if u restrict u will lose weight but I have having a hard time keeping full when I was still eating carbs and sugar. I felt hungry alllll the time. Now I feel like I'm full and feel satisfied from my meals. It's not for everyone, I get that, but if it works for you it's worth a try.
No, I've literally been told by many keto followers on this site and elsewhere that fiber doesn't matter for your health and is completely unnecessary to consume fibrous foods...nothing to do with net carbs.4 -
Rishaschultz94 wrote: »Also when people on this ''Diet" say fiber doesn't matter is because we subtract the fiber from the carbs to give us net carbs, That way we can still eat veggies and fruit.
Actually, that's not what the discussion about fiber was about. The discussion was about an argument that fiber isn't important doesn't count if one is eating very low carb (based on both the recommendations and what I've read about fiber, I doubt that's true, and personally my fiber was definitely lower on keto although still in line with recommendations -- I just prefer to eat 45+ g).Anyone who doesn't eat veggies or fruit on this diet doesnt honestly understand what they are doing and need to do more research.
Personally, for health reasons, I agree with you that it is necessary to eat vegetables, and when I tried keto I made an effort to do so without reducing my consumption of non starchy veg (I routinely eat more than 10 servings per day), and I think eating lots of non starchy veg (not just 2-3 servings, which I get the sense some think is a lot, keto or not, sometimes) is absolutely part of a healthful keto diet (and I think keto can be done healthfully for sure).
For me, I did have to cut back on my non-starchy veg and worry more about which veg I chose even among non starchy ones (brussels can easily add up). I also was not able to fit in fruit, even berries, although I suppose I could have eaten a tiny amount of berries occasionally. I did eat half an avocado daily, and I also ate (because I think they are important) at least a serving of nuts and/or seeds daily. The only other significant source of carbs I had (besides veg and nuts/seeds and avocado) was an occasional half or full serving of greek yogurt, and I was always at my carbs (I was aiming for 35 g net) and don't see how people manage under 20 g without eating far fewer veg than I was.
For the record, I don't think one needs to eat as many veg as I do to be healthy, but I find it a healthy part of my diet and important to me, as are the nuts/seeds, and the fruit I missed (and beans/lentils, which I also missed).
Anyway, that's something of a digression, since I do agree with you that keto can be done healthfully. However, to support what some others have said, I don't think it's inherently true that people who do keto do focus on those things -- I've certainly seen the diet sold as "you don't have to eat veg" and I think some find it appealing because they aren't that wild about veg, and when people are spending lots of carbs on keto treats or mock keto bread or the like and staying under 20 g net, I do think that veg must be too low (and as I said I found it hard to fit in fruit so I know one can't fit in that much).
But also like I said any diet can be done poorly or healthfully, weight loss itself is healthful if one is obese, and anyone on a deficit should likely pay more attention to nutrients if they care about that (which I think they should) than people not on a deficit as that's when it's harder to meet nutritional needs. I'd recommend tracking micros for a while if one is on lower cals, and that's likely especially the case when one cuts out food groups to a significant extent (or if one is eating lots of lower nutrient foods, of course).1
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