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High school sports
allother94
Posts: 588 Member
You are choosing who makes a high school basketball team. You have the choice between the following two players. Which do you choose?
1). Senior - Been on the team since middle school. Works hard, decent player, friends with other team member. Doesn’t play much and is OK sitting on the bench of a 12 man team.
2). Senior - Staring trying out in 10th grade. Wasn’t good enough to make the team until this year, but has improved so much in the last year and has grown so much he would probably be the 6th best player on the team.
If you choose 1, how do you explain it to 2, and vise-versa?
1). Senior - Been on the team since middle school. Works hard, decent player, friends with other team member. Doesn’t play much and is OK sitting on the bench of a 12 man team.
2). Senior - Staring trying out in 10th grade. Wasn’t good enough to make the team until this year, but has improved so much in the last year and has grown so much he would probably be the 6th best player on the team.
If you choose 1, how do you explain it to 2, and vise-versa?
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Replies
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If you have that as the only choice you have to choose number 2, that person would be 6th man. He/she has done the work and proven themselves.
You tell player #1, sorry you didn't make the team this year. We are limited in the number of spots and there are 12 players that are playing better than you. Thank you for all your efforts with the team.
In the real world, the decision point isn't between player 1 and 2, its between player 1 and the 12th best player on the team not player #1 and the 6th best which you are saying is player #2.8 -
If the assessment of number 2 is correct, then that should the one who gets the spot. Otherwise there is no point to having tryouts and you should have just closed them off. But that player has earned their way on the team and should be there.
If the other player is the worst player and the one you would cut, is there another roll you could give them? Like equipment manager or something? So they could still be with their friends on the team but not in a player roll?
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#2 if I want to win. It's fair to choose the best players.3
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If the assessment of number 2 is correct, then that should the one who gets the spot. Otherwise there is no point to having tryouts and you should have just closed them off. But that player has earned their way on the team and should be there.
If the other player is the worst player and the one you would cut, is there another roll you could give them? Like equipment manager or something? So they could still be with their friends on the team but not in a player roll?
I'd agree with offering another roll depending on the kid. If they accepted being cut because not one of the top 12 great, there are a lot of things they could do to help the team and would be a good experience for all. If they are salty because they were cut keep the toxic attitude far away.2 -
What if 2 is the 12th best player and 1 is the 13th best player? If neither will play much, should you stick with 1?
Also, what if player 3 enters the equation. Sophomore that will make the team next year. Should 3 go over 2 if 2 is the 12th best player for development opportunities? Assume it is a lost season with little hope of many victories.
To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?0 -
I don't know much about high school sports but I do about life. I thought high school was preparing young adults for a future world? A future world--especially job--is not going to sugarcoat an elimination. I would tell my players the truth and give them options. Disappointment is part of life and getting over it is a useful skill. I'd help them (the whole team) with that aspect. I like honesty without being harsh.3
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While I have no real interest in basketball and didn't play a team sport in high school, I am currently a competitive athlete and I was a serious musician throughout middle and high school. The truth of the matter is, in sports, music, and life there are always factors to your getting chosen after an audition/tryout/interview/application or winning that are outside of your control. That is something that is something that kids need to be able to process (with the help of an adult). I can workout, practice, and try to stay healthy in the most optimal way, but even if I'm in a single at a regatta (so in a boat where I'm the only person rowing), I can only do my best. If my best isn't good enough to beat someone else then so be it, other people are not in my control.allother94 wrote: »To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?
Likewise, these kids can have a 4.0 GPA, loads of extra-curriculars, great test scores (which I don't think should matter but that's an aside), great essays, and what felt like a successful interview and still not get into XYZ college. That's pretty common depending on the admissions rate of the college. That is something that teens and their caregivers (especially their caregivers) need to be able to anticipate and deal with.3 -
Is this:
1) a theoretical ethical dilemma, or
2) an "asking for a friend" situation.?
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While I have no real interest in basketball and didn't play a team sport in high school, I am currently a competitive athlete and I was a serious musician throughout middle and high school. The truth of the matter is, in sports, music, and life there are always factors to your getting chosen after an audition/tryout/interview/application or winning that are outside of your control. That is something that is something that kids need to be able to process (with the help of an adult). I can workout, practice, and try to stay healthy in the most optimal way, but even if I'm in a single at a regatta (so in a boat where I'm the only person rowing), I can only do my best. If my best isn't good enough to beat someone else then so be it, other people are not in my control.allother94 wrote: »To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?
Likewise, these kids can have a 4.0 GPA, loads of extra-curriculars, great test scores (which I don't think should matter but that's an aside), great essays, and what felt like a successful interview and still not get into XYZ college. That's pretty common depending on the admissions rate of the college. That is something that teens and their caregivers (especially their caregivers) need to be able to anticipate and deal with.
This is good insight into the perspective from someone on the outside looking in.
Just a point of clarification on my statement above. When I said “outside of your control”, I meant something like winning the qualifying race, but not being chosen to move forward because the 2nd place person had more star appeal and would bring more media attention to the next race. An understandable reason, but not really fair.0 -
allother94 wrote: »What if 2 is the 12th best player and 1 is the 13th best player? If neither will play much, should you stick with 1?
Also, what if player 3 enters the equation. Sophomore that will make the team next year. Should 3 go over 2 if 2 is the 12th best player for development opportunities? Assume it is a lost season with little hope of many victories.
To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?
I wouldn't add the sophmore if they weren't ready. They have 2 years to still play and they can get better playing JV or some other basketball.
As far as the 12th vs the 13th man dilemma, I think it depends. If neither are going to see time during the season except in blowout situations, then I may possibly stay with the one who has been there a while and has good relationships with their teammates. There are plenty of guys who take up roster spots on NBA teams who are probably not good enough to be on the team, but are there for "locker room presence". So I don't think that it's something to completely not consider.
But if the other player is gong to be measurably better, then you have to go with them.1 -
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allother94 wrote: »
I think that ultimately you won't really know because you'll never have the full picture of what was going on. I can think of reasons why it would be a poor idea to have the sophomore in and and thus the 12th best player not make the cut and I can think of reasons why having the sophomore play would actually be a very good idea.1 -
allother94 wrote: »
While I have no real interest in basketball and didn't play a team sport in high school, I am currently a competitive athlete and I was a serious musician throughout middle and high school. The truth of the matter is, in sports, music, and life there are always factors to your getting chosen after an audition/tryout/interview/application or winning that are outside of your control. That is something that is something that kids need to be able to process (with the help of an adult). I can workout, practice, and try to stay healthy in the most optimal way, but even if I'm in a single at a regatta (so in a boat where I'm the only person rowing), I can only do my best. If my best isn't good enough to beat someone else then so be it, other people are not in my control.allother94 wrote: »To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?
Likewise, these kids can have a 4.0 GPA, loads of extra-curriculars, great test scores (which I don't think should matter but that's an aside), great essays, and what felt like a successful interview and still not get into XYZ college. That's pretty common depending on the admissions rate of the college. That is something that teens and their caregivers (especially their caregivers) need to be able to anticipate and deal with.
This is good insight into the perspective from someone on the outside looking in.
Just a point of clarification on my statement above. When I said “outside of your control”, I meant something like winning the qualifying race, but not being chosen to move forward because the 2nd place person had more star appeal and would bring more media attention to the next race. An understandable reason, but not really fair.
This happens outside sports too though does it not. Person A looks objectively better on paper than person B. Person B, however, gets the spot because they seem, subjectively, like a better person for position. Or say, Person A has 3.5 GPA and person B has a 4.0. Objectively person B is the better student. That doesn't, however, mean that they are the better fit for the institution. I recently applied for and got into my top grad program with less than stellar grades but a lot of research experience for an undergraduate, presumably good letters of recommendation, and I had been in contact with multiple people in the dept that I'll be studying in so this is on my mind.
If we want to go with sports: Person A is pretty good but doesn't work all that hard and has average attendance when it comes to practice. On the other hand person B is a bit worse than person A but clearly works very hard during practice, shows up, and is constantly getting better. It would make more sense to me to choose person B given that they're dependable, work hard, and their trajectory looks really good.3 -
allother94 wrote: »What if 2 is the 12th best player and 1 is the 13th best player? If neither will play much, should you stick with 1?
Also, what if player 3 enters the equation. Sophomore that will make the team next year. Should 3 go over 2 if 2 is the 12th best player for development opportunities? Assume it is a lost season with little hope of many victories.
To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?
You select the 12 best players period.
To do anything else trashes your credibility as a coach.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »allother94 wrote: »What if 2 is the 12th best player and 1 is the 13th best player? If neither will play much, should you stick with 1?
Also, what if player 3 enters the equation. Sophomore that will make the team next year. Should 3 go over 2 if 2 is the 12th best player for development opportunities? Assume it is a lost season with little hope of many victories.
To roll it up, what are acceptable reasons to not pick the 12 best players? Risk of disrupting team dynamics, roll players, building for next year, etc? If there is a reason, how to you explain it to someone that is one of the 12 best players and will be devastated to miss out for reasons outside his control?
You select the 12 best players period.
To do anything else trashes your credibility as a coach.
I'd have to agree with this, plus if you start making reasons to accept this kid or that kid(especially when they're clearly biding their time or not giving their all KWIM??), it becomes a very slippery slope. I went back and forth, agreeing with other posts as I read, but if you simply select the top players, then nobody questions your motives.
I think.
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I agree with the 12 best players approach. The coach I am thinking of disagrees. I think this is why he went 2-34 over a three year period. Besides being a bad coach, he was a pretty horrible person as well. The sad thing about it is that it’s the kids who suffer. The good ones he cut and the ones who made the team who had him as a coach. Bad high school coaches can really scar a kid for life...1
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allother94 wrote: »
Outside observers will differ on who is the 12th best vs. the 13th best, because "best" is multi-dimensional, even at an obvious physical skills level (better guard, better shooter, etc.), let alone other relevant character and chemistry issues.
The coach has taken on the responsibility, is the one putting in the work and making those hard decisions, and their decisions are the ones that count.
If the "coach you know" is a friend who asked for your advice, vs. (say) someone who's coaching your or a friend's child, that's a perspective shift that's likely to make a difference in what seems fair, IMO.1 -
I know a team who won state. The 12th man had one talent. He fouled. Lots of games, he didn’t play at all. Seldom did he play more than once in one game. When he fouled someone, they sat out for 5 minutes or so to catch their breath. If they got rough with his team later in the game, he stood up and started toward the table to check in. Usually that was enough to make their players back off. Rarely, it wasn’t. Then He played until he fouled again. I think the second time always did it.
You didn’t mention if either player had a special “talent” that might be needed sometime.
There are always many, many things to consider.2 -
Another issue could be whether one of the players in the mix for the last slot fills a backup role in a position where you don't have a deep bench. Kid could be a great center, but if you already have one or two centers and maybe one or two forwards who could shift in a pinch, but you've only got two point guards, you shouldn't pick another center, even if s/he's stronger at center than your choice for a third point guard is at point guard. Players in most team sports aren't completely fungible, and in some -- basketball and football come to mind -- they are less fungible than others, requiring both different skill sets and different body types.3
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allother94 wrote: »You are choosing who makes a high school basketball team. You have the choice between the following two players. Which do you choose?
1). Senior - Been on the team since middle school. Works hard, decent player, friends with other team member. Doesn’t play much and is OK sitting on the bench of a 12 man team.
2). Senior - Staring trying out in 10th grade. Wasn’t good enough to make the team until this year, but has improved so much in the last year and has grown so much he would probably be the 6th best player on the team.
If you choose 1, how do you explain it to 2, and vise-versa?
No way a choice - Depend on the position within the team, and also how would his personality affect the team as a whole. Ultimately it is the team that wins as a whole, and not an individual player.0 -
allother94 wrote: »I agree with the 12 best players approach. The coach I am thinking of disagrees. I think this is why he went 2-34 over a three year period. Besides being a bad coach, he was a pretty horrible person as well. The sad thing about it is that it’s the kids who suffer. The good ones he cut and the ones who made the team who had him as a coach. Bad high school coaches can really scar a kid for life...
Of course, we are only hearing your side of this story. So basically, with limited information, you just wanted to use this forum to get people to agree with your position that this person is a horrible coach and human being. Ok, got it.5 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »allother94 wrote: »I agree with the 12 best players approach. The coach I am thinking of disagrees. I think this is why he went 2-34 over a three year period. Besides being a bad coach, he was a pretty horrible person as well. The sad thing about it is that it’s the kids who suffer. The good ones he cut and the ones who made the team who had him as a coach. Bad high school coaches can really scar a kid for life...
Of course, we are only hearing your side of this story. So basically, with limited information, you just wanted to use this forum to get people to agree with your position that this person is a horrible coach and human being. Ok, got it.
That was my initial suspicion. When the OP confirmed it I figured it was best to hold my opinion on the situation.3 -
I wasn’t looking for confirmation. I was asking for insights, from here and other places, before making my final conclusion. I don’t need to convince 5 random people on the internet before deciding what I believe. Maybe that’s how you live your life, but not me.
And even if I was doing this to make myself feel better, so what? What kind of person are you for trying to mess that up?
If you feel the need to say anything, you should just say that you are only hearing one side of the story and maybe there is more to it. You don’t need to be a jerk about it. I would love nothing more than to hear the other side of this story, but that is not possible.1 -
Or maybe your kids are the “buddies of the best players” who make the team at the expense of others... I’m guessing your feelings and wants would be a major part of the “other side of the story”. That’s probably why I will never get to hear that side of the story.0
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