Am I Starving Myself? Are adjustments necessary?

bkbroiler2k · May 2020

Hi all,
I've been reading up on everything on the Internet to try and figure out if I'm doing everything optimally, but I'm semi-plateuing, and there's just so much conflicting info out there.

Here's the "skinny"
I'm Male, 38 years old, 5'11", and work out 3-5 days a week. My workouts are either 15 minutes running + 45 minutes weight lifting or just 30 minutes of running.
When I started in January 1, 2020, I was 306. As of April 22, I'm 256, so I lost 50 lb.
According to the formulas, my BMR is 2308 calories and my TDEE is about 3376 calories.

My goal is to both lose a lot of weight (at least get down to 240 lb) but be fairly cut at the same time. I would prefer to lose as much fat as is healthy. Back in Jan 1, I think LA Fitness told me I was somewhere in the 40-50% body fat range. I have no idea what I am now, but the mirror does show lot of differences.

SO ON TO THE MAIN TOPIC
I've been very good at sticking with a diet plan and workout regiment. What discourages & worries me about this journey is that I feel like every time I mess up/have a cheat day, there's a direct impact on weight that follows for a few days. When I was last healthy, my weight would go up on the bad day, obviously, but I'd go back to equilibrium in about a day. This time around, it takes 3-4 days to get back to where I was. Granted, I was 27 when I was last healthy, so age may have had something to do with it, but my concern right now is if I'm consuming too few calories.

I lost 20 lbs in the first 2-3 weeks of this journey. I consumed about 1100-1300 calories a day (that's over 1000 below my BMR!). The next 30 lbs took 4 months. I kept the 1100-1300 for about the first 4 weeks, and then upped it to 1400-1700 a day (still 908-608 below BMR).

Honestly, throughout this whole time, I would not say I was "hungry all the time." Sure, there were times I was, but because my diet includes casein protein, Metamucil and other fiber-rich foods, and low glycemic index foods, hunger really hasn't been a problem, but I worry because I see so many articles that say to never go below your BMR.

The diet/exercise regiment is clearly working, my energy levels are fine, my hunger levels are fine, when I lose fat around certain areas the muscle definition is definitely there, weight is obviously going down. The only potential sign of "starvation" is that I used to be a polar bear - thermostat was at 65-67 while wearing a t-shirt and shorts to be comfortable, but now I have to wear a sweatshirt, sweatpants, and wool socks to be comfortable at that same thermostat level (save energy, lol).

Am I a ticking time bomb? Should I change something? When I reach my goal of 240 lbs and allow myself freedom to move up to the 2000 calorie range, am I just going to gain a bunch of weight?

Terytha · May 2020

You are eating way too little.

Men should never drop below 1500 calories a day, and even that's gonna be too low for most men who aren't quite short and sedentary and already near a healthy weight. You're not those things.

You should never cut more than 1000 calories off your TDEE either.

The reasons are varied but the fact is, your body needs calories to run your internal organs. When you take in so little, your body starts to sacrifice the parts of you that need more energy. So you end up losing more muscle than fat. Oh, and your heart is a muscle. You're putting incredible strain on it.

There's also the fact that you need vitamins and nutrients to live, and eating so little you can't possibly be absorbing enough of those. Malnutrition and iron deficiency and B12 deficiency are three things that seriously suck if your goal is a healthy, happy life.

Not to mention everything you've just said about your eating and exercise habits puts you firmly in eating disorder territory.

Stop trying to do this fast, and do it properly. Or you are gonna end up very sick.

janejellyroll · May 2020

You're not eating enough. Full stop.

I get the goal to lose as much fat as possible, but presumably you don't also want to strip your body of muscle while you're doing it. That's what your current regime is setting you up for.

You shouldn't be basing your deficit off your BMR at all. Your BMR is what you'd burn if you stayed in bed all day. You want to figure it based on your TDEE, which is that of a person who is doing physical activity.

bkbroiler2k · May 2020

Thanks for the replies!

I think that is why I'm so confused/concerned. Mathematically I'm definitely consuming too few calories, but shouldn't there be physical signs of it? If I'm losing muscle mass, shouldn't I be getting weaker in either strength or endurance? I started being able to run only .5 miles, and now I'm running almost 3 (on running-only days). My bench, squat, rows, and all other strength training exercises have gradually increased in weight too, so I am getting stronger. My bicep circumference has increased, and my chest and quad circumferences have stayed the same, but there is a lot more muscle definition in those places (they were pretty fatty before).

In terms of vitamins & nutrients, I do take multivitamins daily, so all of those are at or above 100% DV. I track everything I eat & do using the MyFitnessPal app, and almost every other mineral, I'm getting the DV with a couple exceptions. From what I read, Potassium is a weird number to gauge with a bit of variation among nutritionists, but I usually make about 50%-75% of the 3500mg MyFitnessPal says I should get. The other is iron, which I get about 50-66% of the 100mg MyFitnessApp tells me to.

So, all the physical evidence seems fine, like I said, hunger is not a problem, because I'm snacking with low glycemic snacks and fruits. On an average 1505 calorie day, it'll be 101g (26.8%) protein, 148g carb (39.3%) (of which 39g is fiber), and 56g (33.5%) fat.

I don't have any issues with fatigue, hunger, weakness, muscle cramps, headaches/migraines, hair loss/thinning, brittle nails (except 1 thumbnail, but that's been an issue for over a year even before I started). The only thing remotely related might be being colder in my own house, but I think that's a combination of losing my fat insulation and also because my thermostat is lower than what normal humans like (65-67 degrees).

Are there certain diseases or conditions that hide all of these things amidst consuming too few calories?

Terytha · May 2020

bkbroiler2k wrote: »

Thanks for the replies!

I think that is why I'm so confused/concerned. Mathematically I'm definitely consuming too few calories, but shouldn't there be physical signs of it? If I'm losing muscle mass, shouldn't I be getting weaker in either strength or endurance? I started being able to run only .5 miles, and now I'm running almost 3 (on running-only days). My bench, squat, rows, and all other strength training exercises have gradually increased in weight too, so I am getting stronger. My bicep circumference has increased, and my chest and quad circumferences have stayed the same, but there is a lot more muscle definition in those places (they were pretty fatty before).

In terms of vitamins & nutrients, I do take multivitamins daily, so all of those are at or above 100% DV. I track everything I eat & do using the MyFitnessPal app, and almost every other mineral, I'm getting the DV with a couple exceptions. From what I read, Potassium is a weird number to gauge with a bit of variation among nutritionists, but I usually make about 50%-75% of the 3500mg MyFitnessPal says I should get. The other is iron, which I get about 50-66% of the 100mg MyFitnessApp tells me to.

So, all the physical evidence seems fine, like I said, hunger is not a problem, because I'm snacking with low glycemic snacks and fruits. On an average 1505 calorie day, it'll be 101g (26.8%) protein, 148g carb (39.3%) (of which 39g is fiber), and 56g (33.5%) fat.

I don't have any issues with fatigue, hunger, weakness, muscle cramps, headaches/migraines, hair loss/thinning, brittle nails (except 1 thumbnail, but that's been an issue for over a year even before I started). The only thing remotely related might be being colder in my own house, but I think that's a combination of losing my fat insulation and also because my thermostat is lower than what normal humans like (65-67 degrees).

Are there certain diseases or conditions that hide all of these things amidst consuming too few calories?

You won't notice it until you do, and then you will really notice it. There was a thread not long ago from a woman who was doing fine until her heart suddenly failed. That's just how it goes.

Absorption of synthetic vitamins through pills is not 100%.

You're seeing more muscle because you're losing the fat around it. But anyone can make gains when they're starting. Maintaining and growing is the bigger issue.

All that aside, this is still eating disorder territory. You trying desperately to justify your terrible, unhealthy lifestyle is also an eating disorder symptom. You're not confused, you're impatient and in denial.

bkbroiler2k · May 2020

Terytha wrote: »

All that aside, this is still eating disorder territory. You trying desperately to justify your terrible, unhealthy lifestyle is also an eating disorder symptom. You're not confused, you're impatient and in denial.

Not to get off topic here, but I think this is a little aggressive. If I was simply impatient and in denial, I would have no reason to start this thread and ask about this to begin with. I'm simply trying to understand why I don't have any of the symptoms that are related to under-eating, when mathematically, the numbers say I am, drastically, and all the physical indicators seem to be going in the right direction.

I was above 300 before too, back when I was 27, and I did the same type of regiment, and got down to 235 in about 6-7 months, and kept it off for 4 years until work forced some big life changes that eventually brought me back to 300.

In any case, I would think that there would be measurable, either quantitative or qualitative, differences when undereating, and not just sudden heart failure. I had blood work done right when I started and then another one a month after, and all the indicators went in a positive direction. Granted, I also agree that 1 month is too short to test any permanent changes, but thought it was worth noting.

I really do appreciate your feedback and concern. I am genuinely trying to understand, though, why all the markers and physical evidence seem to be pointing in the right direction, even though mathematically/scientifically it's not. 1 month may be too short of a time to draw conclusions, but I would think 5 months should at least show some indications or symptoms of something good/bad starting to happen.

Duck_Puddle · May 2020

Some previously linked research indicates that the max amount of fat you can actually lose in a day is somewhere between 11 and 26 calories per pound of body fat per day. Note-the higher number was observed in a starvation study.

While you don’t know your body fat, let’s just guess you’re around 25%. So assuming you’re eating...something, that puts you at maxing burning 700-ish calories of your existing fat store per day.

That’s maxing-assuming your diet is pristine, includes adequate protein (yours doesn’t) and you’re using progressive resistance training to maintain muscle mass.

Also FYI-your protein intake should be about 1g per pound of lean body mass (non-fat) at a minimum. So probably about double what you’re eating. I eat more protein than you and I’m a 160 pound 5’4” female.

Without those pieces in place, your body will burn what it needs to burn to cover the deficit. If that’s your heart, brain, etc, that’s what it’s going to be. You’ll notice when whatever is getting burned off no longer functions properly. Best wishes that it can be repaired at that point.

Also-mfp tracks like 8 nutrients. There are hundreds. There is absolutely no way you are getting adequate intake of all of them on so few calories. Those minimal calorie levels are the minimum required to actually be able to get them all.

If you truly want to maximize fat loss and look shredded-drop your rate of loss down to .5-1% of your body weight (with .5 being a target, 1% being a max for very obese people with substantial fat stores). If you go back to the beginning here, that 700-ish calories that is what you can actually burn off in a day-that’s a 5% rate of loss for you.

You really, really need to eat more.

Duck_Puddle · May 2020

bkbroiler2k wrote: »

Terytha wrote: »

All that aside, this is still eating disorder territory. You trying desperately to justify your terrible, unhealthy lifestyle is also an eating disorder symptom. You're not confused, you're impatient and in denial.

Not to get off topic here, but I think this is a little aggressive. If I was simply impatient and in denial, I would have no reason to start this thread and ask about this to begin with. I'm simply trying to understand why I don't have any of the symptoms that are related to under-eating, when mathematically, the numbers say I am, drastically, and all the physical indicators seem to be going in the right direction.

I was above 300 before too, back when I was 27, and I did the same type of regiment, and got down to 235 in about 6-7 months, and kept it off for 4 years until work forced some big life changes that eventually brought me back to 300.

In any case, I would think that there would be measurable, either quantitative or qualitative, differences when undereating, and not just sudden heart failure. I had blood work done right when I started and then another one a month after, and all the indicators went in a positive direction. Granted, I also agree that 1 month is too short to test any permanent changes, but thought it was worth noting.

I really do appreciate your feedback and concern. I am genuinely trying to understand, though, why all the markers and physical evidence seem to be pointing in the right direction, even though mathematically/scientifically it's not. 1 month may be too short of a time to draw conclusions, but I would think 5 months should at least show some indications or symptoms of something good/bad starting to happen.

So your body is burning the excess somewhere. It could be something benign like eating away at your appendix - something you won’t notice ever.

It could be burning off part of your brain-which you might not immediately notice if the affected part is not responsible for a function you’re monitoring (or able to monitor). Say it’s currently burning off parts that control toenail growth. You’re not likely to notice that. But when it gets to a part that controls breathing, thoughts, speech, etc-then you’ll notice. Because “suddenly” you’re having a problem.

It’s a lot like an overuse injury. It’s not a problem until it is. Then it’s a big problem that won’t go away.

Theoldguy1 · May 2020

Duck_Puddle wrote: »

Some previously linked research indicates that the max amount of fat you can actually lose in a day is somewhere between 11 and 26 calories per pound of body fat per day. Note-the higher number was observed in a starvation study.

While you don’t know your body fat, let’s just guess you’re around 25%. So assuming you’re eating...something, that puts you at maxing burning 700-ish calories of your existing fat store per day.

That’s maxing-assuming your diet is pristine, includes adequate protein (yours doesn’t) and you’re using progressive resistance training to maintain muscle mass.

Also FYI-your protein intake should be about 1g per pound of lean body mass (non-fat) at a minimum. So probably about double what you’re eating. I eat more protein than you and I’m a 160 pound 5’4” female.

Without those pieces in place, your body will burn what it needs to burn to cover the deficit. If that’s your heart, brain, etc, that’s what it’s going to be. You’ll notice when whatever is getting burned off no longer functions properly. Best wishes that it can be repaired at that point.

Also-mfp tracks like 8 nutrients. There are hundreds. There is absolutely no way you are getting adequate intake of all of them on so few calories. Those minimal calorie levels are the minimum required to actually be able to get them all.

If you truly want to maximize fat loss and look shredded-drop your rate of loss down to .5-1% of your body weight (with .5 being a target, 1% being a max for very obese people with substantial fat stores). If you go back to the beginning here, that 700-ish calories that is what you can actually burn off in a day-that’s a 5% rate of loss for you.

You really, really need to eat more.

At 5'11", 256 lbs, not much exercise the OP will be more in the 35-40% BF range. Not trying to be a downer but just wanting to be realistic.

Best of luck.

Duck_Puddle · May 2020

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Duck_Puddle wrote: »

Some previously linked research indicates that the max amount of fat you can actually lose in a day is somewhere between 11 and 26 calories per pound of body fat per day. Note-the higher number was observed in a starvation study.

While you don’t know your body fat, let’s just guess you’re around 25%. So assuming you’re eating...something, that puts you at maxing burning 700-ish calories of your existing fat store per day.

That’s maxing-assuming your diet is pristine, includes adequate protein (yours doesn’t) and you’re using progressive resistance training to maintain muscle mass.

Also FYI-your protein intake should be about 1g per pound of lean body mass (non-fat) at a minimum. So probably about double what you’re eating. I eat more protein than you and I’m a 160 pound 5’4” female.

Without those pieces in place, your body will burn what it needs to burn to cover the deficit. If that’s your heart, brain, etc, that’s what it’s going to be. You’ll notice when whatever is getting burned off no longer functions properly. Best wishes that it can be repaired at that point.

Also-mfp tracks like 8 nutrients. There are hundreds. There is absolutely no way you are getting adequate intake of all of them on so few calories. Those minimal calorie levels are the minimum required to actually be able to get them all.

If you truly want to maximize fat loss and look shredded-drop your rate of loss down to .5-1% of your body weight (with .5 being a target, 1% being a max for very obese people with substantial fat stores). If you go back to the beginning here, that 700-ish calories that is what you can actually burn off in a day-that’s a 5% rate of loss for you.

You really, really need to eat more.

At 5'11", 256 lbs, not much exercise the OP will be more in the 35-40% BF range. Not trying to be a downer but just wanting to be realistic.

Best of luck.

That isn’t being a downer. If that’s a more realistic number, then I’ll revise.

Max fat burn per day assuming everything is perfect-1000 cal (rather than my previous 700-ish). OP is currently at about 1800/day.

Minimum protein intake - 167g (rather than my previous 200g). OP is currently at 100g.

janejellyroll · May 2020

bkbroiler2k wrote: »

Thanks for the replies!

I think that is why I'm so confused/concerned. Mathematically I'm definitely consuming too few calories, but shouldn't there be physical signs of it? If I'm losing muscle mass, shouldn't I be getting weaker in either strength or endurance? I started being able to run only .5 miles, and now I'm running almost 3 (on running-only days). My bench, squat, rows, and all other strength training exercises have gradually increased in weight too, so I am getting stronger. My bicep circumference has increased, and my chest and quad circumferences have stayed the same, but there is a lot more muscle definition in those places (they were pretty fatty before).

In terms of vitamins & nutrients, I do take multivitamins daily, so all of those are at or above 100% DV. I track everything I eat & do using the MyFitnessPal app, and almost every other mineral, I'm getting the DV with a couple exceptions. From what I read, Potassium is a weird number to gauge with a bit of variation among nutritionists, but I usually make about 50%-75% of the 3500mg MyFitnessPal says I should get. The other is iron, which I get about 50-66% of the 100mg MyFitnessApp tells me to.

So, all the physical evidence seems fine, like I said, hunger is not a problem, because I'm snacking with low glycemic snacks and fruits. On an average 1505 calorie day, it'll be 101g (26.8%) protein, 148g carb (39.3%) (of which 39g is fiber), and 56g (33.5%) fat.

I don't have any issues with fatigue, hunger, weakness, muscle cramps, headaches/migraines, hair loss/thinning, brittle nails (except 1 thumbnail, but that's been an issue for over a year even before I started). The only thing remotely related might be being colder in my own house, but I think that's a combination of losing my fat insulation and also because my thermostat is lower than what normal humans like (65-67 degrees).

Are there certain diseases or conditions that hide all of these things amidst consuming too few calories?

There is a point where we can progress in strength and endurance even while consuming too few calories and losing muscle. Our bodies are amazing, relatively, at survival and can crank out good results in bad conditions . . . to a point.

Lots of people feel great on very low calories until the point where they suddenly don't. Many of those people figure out what is going on before they hurt themselves, but some of them don't. If we're lucky, the worst we experience is some hair loss, lack of energy, and poor workouts.

My calories were too low when I was losing weight (although not quite to your level) and I felt great for a period of time. Weight loss was going fast, my workouts were great, and then I suddenly hit the wall. My sleep suffered, I had no energy, I was consumed by thoughts of food. Fortunately I figured out what was going on and was able to adjust pretty quickly, but I'm sure I lost more muscle than I needed to. The point is, why go through that if you don't have to?

Nobody can make you want to eat more, but since you asked you're going to get this feedback. There is no upside to what you're doing. You may escape some of the worst consequences, but that still isn't going to make it a good thing. You can take all the vitamin pills in the world, but eating *enough* calories is also a component of nourishing yourself adequately.

AnnPT77 · May 2020

bkbroiler2k wrote: »

Terytha wrote: »

All that aside, this is still eating disorder territory. You trying desperately to justify your terrible, unhealthy lifestyle is also an eating disorder symptom. You're not confused, you're impatient and in denial.

Not to get off topic here, but I think this is a little aggressive. If I was simply impatient and in denial, I would have no reason to start this thread and ask about this to begin with. I'm simply trying to understand why I don't have any of the symptoms that are related to under-eating, when mathematically, the numbers say I am, drastically, and all the physical indicators seem to be going in the right direction.

I was above 300 before too, back when I was 27, and I did the same type of regiment, and got down to 235 in about 6-7 months, and kept it off for 4 years until work forced some big life changes that eventually brought me back to 300.

In any case, I would think that there would be measurable, either quantitative or qualitative, differences when undereating, and not just sudden heart failure. I had blood work done right when I started and then another one a month after, and all the indicators went in a positive direction. Granted, I also agree that 1 month is too short to test any permanent changes, but thought it was worth noting.

I really do appreciate your feedback and concern. I am genuinely trying to understand, though, why all the markers and physical evidence seem to be pointing in the right direction, even though mathematically/scientifically it's not. 1 month may be too short of a time to draw conclusions, but I would think 5 months should at least show some indications or symptoms of something good/bad starting to happen.

OOooo, I think I know this one - the bolded thing!

I lost too fast for a while, when I first joined MFP, because it underestimates my calorie needs by a crazy-big amount (this is unusual). I felt great, wasn't hungry, all health markers heading in a good direction, until suddenly I hit a wall: Weak, fatigued. Took longer to recover than the time it took to reach that point. I was lucky it wasn't worse. (Like this young woman: https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10761904/under-1200-for-weight-loss/p1)

You started out with a lot of fat to lose. Perhaps you still have a good bit. People who are seriously obese probably have somewhat better odds of getting away with extreme deficits for longer, without paying consequences.

You're still quite young, so probably more resilient (getting older every year, though, eh?

). Young, resilient people have somewhat better odds of getting away with extreme deficits for longer, without paying consequences.

Will something annoying or terrible happen eventually? Maybe not. You may be just fine. But it really is a question of how much risk you want to take with your health. (And appearance: The hair thinning is often a delayed effect that starts showing up weeks to months later, just to keep things interesting.)

How lucky do you feel? How much risk can you personally tolerate? Those are questions for you, not us. I'd virtually guarantee that if consequences come, they'll be sudden, with little warning.

(You do need more protein though, for real, jeesh - I agree with the others.)

PAV8888 · May 2020

On the good news front: losing weight fast and then adjusting is actually considered a valid method and it has shown as good results as anything in some studies. The issue being that the studies tended to offer nutritional and behavioural support and counselling and follow up, and most people on MFP are sort of doing it on their own and need some time to figure things out for themselves from scratch... and aren't going to get any helpful follow ups!

And of course transition is fraught with danger because all the hormones you've been pushing down and all the extra pressure you've been putting on your body will come to roost.

So. Let's handle a couple of things here. "My BMR is / my TDEE is" --> no, these are statistical ESTIMATES of your BMR and TDEE. Your actual TDEE is closer to ((lbs lost * 3500 + calories eaten) / days)

Since you're showing substantial signs of adaptive thermogenesis I would estimate your current TDEE at the last 2-3 weeks and then add about a 10-20% reserve for the level of adaptation you're showing.

Eat no more than 20% less than that if you want to start adjusting (25% less than that if you're still obese)

Onwards and to even more fun.

Weight fluctuates. Every day. In normal people non fat related weight variations (water weight) moves faster than fat level changes. You haven't seen this because of the speed of your loss. You will be seeing it more and more as you approach a normal weight.

The food you eat has volume and weight. Eating more = more weight before you poop. Your muscles get sore and retain water. This means you weight more. Same applies to sodium. And to the phases of the moon!

Use a weight trend application and consider your weight trend to be your weight. Or chill within a 5 lbs if not 8+lbs scale range. Probably it would be easier to use a weight trend application and set your "maintenance" within a +/- 2lb range in my opinion.

And even more more fun! This is one of those gut check moments. Your deficit size is such that it can easily trigger an ED. Some of the things you mention that you're doing to feel full, under the right circumstances, could qualify as the start of an ED. Maintenance level Calories are just that. Maintenance level calories. If your maintenance level calories are 2,000 or 3,000 or 4,000, if they are your maintenance level that's where you will (more or less and assuming you're counting accurately) maintain.

People should not fear eating maintenance calories. If there's trouble on that, or hesitation to eat that level for fear of gaining weight... time to make some phone calls.

And if there is an issue, the time to start increasing calories is TODAY while you still have time and you're not yet within the normal weight range. Right now you could increase calories per your last two weeks average of TDEE and you won't see much of a scale movement up. In fact you may even see a short term acceleration of loss.

Things will be more complicated if you overshoot.

Oh... and large and rapid weight loss increases your chance of gallstones.

Oh, oh, oh.... and the part where you're stronger today than you were when you started? Your power to weight ratio has changed and you FEEL stronger which is GREAT because it will allow you to do more should you chose to--plus feel GOOD! But in terms of absolute value? Don't forget to put on a 50lb vest before deciding how much stronger you are today!

bkbroiler2k · May 2020

Thanks for all the replies! This has definitely been enlightening, and I'm glad I asked the community!

In case anyone was worried about me, a stranger on the Internet, you can rest at ease. I know addicts say this all the time, but I really do not have a problem/eating disorder. I'm just very strong willed and had a goal in mind. If eating 1400 calories/day was what it took, then I would make it happen. If the number is 2300 or 3000, then that's fine too, better actually. In fact, as of yesterday, I already adjusted to (and hit) 2000, today is on track for 2300, and I'll have to do the math to figure out what tomorrow is (something between 2300 and 3300).

Though I have no way of really measuring, if I started at 50% body fat, I would estimate that I'm still at least in the mid 30s, so I have a good amount of fat stores to provide some of the calories necessary (I know, I know, they don't provide energy for certain systems). I adjusted my macros for about 167g protein (roughly 65% of 256), so we'll see how that changes things.

Am I Starving Myself? Are adjustments necessary?

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