now so so confused--help help

staceyw37 · March 2009

I understood all the Banks, FC, etc posts before. I think i understand the reasoning behind it all.
But now i was just talking to a trainer and some of the things he said made no sense, and now i just don't know what to make of it. can y'all please please help me sort this out?

1--calories in, calories out doesn't really matter in that you can have surplus calories and still lose weight
2--low glycemic index foods + lean protein, no dairy, no soy, lots of veggies, lots of greens, minimal amount of fruit (low GI ones ok), 5 meals a day with 2 of them after 4 PM, few starches
3--hrm are not useful tools, and neither are the measurements on the machines
4--talk test is to be used to determine exertion level, target zone
5--if you leave your workout feeling good, energized then you probably burned a boatload of calories and...??
6--eat the "diet" regardless of exercise/wt loss goals? basically stick to the consistency of the plan
7--dairy slows the metabolism tons, your body sees it as substance to help put on weight (like for babies)
8--soy=extra estrogen which leads to fat plumping for women espec from belly button down and back around the lats (lungs) for body's protection of a baby. that's the way it's programmed.
9--after menopause when estrogen levels decrease, then women frequently see weight gain in the section from belly button up to sternum (ie, more like a man)
10--whatever extra protein, etc you eat just gets excreted. protein cannot convert to fat. protein is always protein. carbohydrates are always carbs. if your body doesn't need it, it doesn't process it and sends it out.

So, what do you think? some of his reasoning makes sense, but some....
please help me.

staceyw37 · March 2009

I understood all the Banks, FC, etc posts before. I think i understand the reasoning behind it all.
But now i was just talking to a trainer and some of the things he said made no sense, and now i just don't know what to make of it. can y'all please please help me sort this out?

1--calories in, calories out doesn't really matter in that you can have surplus calories and still lose weight
2--low glycemic index foods + lean protein, no dairy, no soy, lots of veggies, lots of greens, minimal amount of fruit (low GI ones ok), 5 meals a day with 2 of them after 4 PM, few starches
3--hrm are not useful tools, and neither are the measurements on the machines
4--talk test is to be used to determine exertion level, target zone
5--if you leave your workout feeling good, energized then you probably burned a boatload of calories and...??
6--eat the "diet" regardless of exercise/wt loss goals? basically stick to the consistency of the plan
7--dairy slows the metabolism tons, your body sees it as substance to help put on weight (like for babies)
8--soy=extra estrogen which leads to fat plumping for women espec from belly button down and back around the lats (lungs) for body's protection of a baby. that's the way it's programmed.
9--after menopause when estrogen levels decrease, then women frequently see weight gain in the section from belly button up to sternum (ie, more like a man)
10--whatever extra protein, etc you eat just gets excreted. protein cannot convert to fat. protein is always protein. carbohydrates are always carbs. if your body doesn't need it, it doesn't process it and sends it out.

So, what do you think? some of his reasoning makes sense, but some....
please help me.

Iceprincessk25 · March 2009

The first thing to remember is that carbohydrates, fats, and proteins are
completely separate things, composed of totally different building blocks
(sugars, fatty acids, and amino acids, respectively) that are synthesized in
your body by completely different metabolic pathways. The only way in which
they could possibly "turn into" each other would be if your body broke the
building blocks down into individuals atoms and fragments of molecules and
reassembled them into one of the other building blocks, which your body
never does. So carbohydrates, fats, and proteins never directly convert from
one into another, although as I will tell you later the energy gained from
burning one of them can be used to power the assembly of another from its
building blocks.

The second thing to remember is that sugars/carbohydrates are basically
energy sources for the short term, whereas fats are energy sources for the
long term, or energy storage devices. As far as I understand things, the
only connection between sugar and fat increase/decrease is that when you
take in more calories than you use, your body stores the excess as fat;
conversely, when you take in less calories than you use, your body burns
fats in order to release the extra calories from them to use for the work it
is doing. A useful analogy to think of is to imagine carbohydrates are like
coins and fats are like paper money, and your body is like a system in which
work is paid for with this money, and in which work tends to be paid for
usually with coins. If you are paid more coins than you spend, your body
converts the extra into paper money and stores it; if you need to spend more
money than you have in coins, your body converts some paper money into coins
and spends that in addition to whatever regular amount it has.

The third thing to remember is that proteins, specifically proteins in your
muscle cells/fibers, are what do the mechanical work when you exercise, and
they get damaged when you exercise. After exercise, your body rebuilds
proteins in your muscle cells/fibers and even makes more than you had before
by using energy (obtained by burning carbohydrates and fats, but only for
the energy) to build proteins up from the amino acid building blocks. This
is the only connection between sugars, fats, and proteins.

staceyw37 · March 2009

should i add that he spent 2 yrs in medical school (left b/c of vision problem) and used to write the nutrtion column for the toronto star.
so he's well-read on stuff
but some of it was just so different than anything else i've ever heard

cmriverside · March 2009

The trouble with trainers:
___________________________
I am an athletic trainer, which is not a personal trainer. I am one of those people who run out on the field during football games when a player goes down (sports medicine, not just fitness training) but I have a lot of training experience from rehabing athletes. ie volleyball player blew out ACL this fall, I will have her running in about a month!

I recommend that if you are getting a personal trainer that they should have be a CSCS (certified strength and conditioning specialist). This is a highly respected credential and requires a lot of knowledge in order to pass the test, including exercise physiology, nurtirion, exercise prescription, etc. CSCSs are typically hired by colleges and elite athletes, they know what they are doing. The head ATC at my work is a CSCS, and he spent over 10 years working professional baseball before coming to the collegiate level.

Anyone can sit for the test. but only a few can pass! You may be able to find them online; not sure where to direct you. It's through the NSCA org. I can check if anyone is interested.
__________________________________________
from: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/ariannedavis on this thread:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/2408-the-trouble-with-trainers
_________________________________________

There are lots of posts regarding the lack of certification recommendations for "trainers". You get what you pay for, so research your trainer's qualifications. Maybe talk to a nutritionis or dietician.

Good luck.:flowerforyou:

aprildan · March 2009

Stacey,

I think trainers (like everyone) have their own opinions. I can tell you what a trainer told me. (Used your numbering system.)

1) She said to watch the calories. Watch your portion size and understand how much you are eating.

2) Have two snacks a day (eat every 2 hours). The two snacks should be protein based and around 100 calories.

3) HRM are useful in that you should be working out vigorously and know your heart rate zone. The HRM/calories on the machine at the gym are not very accurate. A HRM with a chest strap is best.

4) If you are breathless when you talk, you are working hard but you can work harder.

5) I am sorry to say I don't feel energized shortly after the workout. I am tired and sweaty. Later that day I feel great but not while I am doing it.

6). The trainer didn't mention diet. Just watch calories and know how much you are eating. If you don't exercise everyday, really watch what you eat on the days that you don't exercise.

I can't really speak to the rest of them. I do know that as a 40ish year old woman with small kids, I found a trainer in my age group who also had kids. She knew how to help me.

For me, it was all about watching how much I ate. I had no clue about the calories in what I ate and how many calories were burned in my cardio routine. The HRM and this website has helped tons. Seems we are working on a similar goal. I started at 155 (July 08) and am working toward 130ish. I currently weigh 140. My progression was slow because I didn't know the calorie intake. Once I figured that out I am making more progress.

All the best,
April

Iceprincessk25 · March 2009

YAY! A fellow Athletic Trainer!

Don't you hate how often you get confused with personal trainers? I was updating my CPR card and the lady asked me what I did and I told her and the rest of the class she kept telling me all about her work out, etc. I was so irritated!!!

Back to the topic, Definitely be careful with your trainers. DO LOTS OF RESEARCH!!! I get so mad when I go to the gym and see trainers working out their clients because they are doing is soooooooo wrong. Kinda blows me away that they're getting paid for it!

Anna_Banana · March 2009

something different works for everyone. there is no one way to lose weightand even if he has 8 years of med school, there will be people who disagree with what he's said. However, some of the things he says don't sound quite right. #1 & #3 are wrong. If you take in more calories than you need your body stores them, that's a fact, and it stores them by converting them into fat, that is basically the answer for #10 too. Every thing you eat has calories and your body uses them or stores them. #3 HRM are a good useful tool. It lets you know where your need to be to get the most benefit from your work out and wether you are just 1 moving around, 2 increasing your HR enough to gain aerobic benefit or 3 increasing it enough to have anaerobic benefit. #7 he contradicts #10 because dairy is made of protien and carbs, and I eat dairy every day and I have lost 40 pounds.

Everybody has their idea on the right (and only) way to lose weight. Just because something works for one person, doesn't mean it will work exactly the same for the next. You need to try and see what works for you. And remember that if something seems really hard to stick with while you're losing the weight, chances are you will just put the weight back on after you stop working at it so hard. You need to try to make little changes that you will be able to live with forever.

SHBoss1673 · March 2009

ok, first, where did this trainer get their Certificate? Cuz I'm reporting him/her.

now I'll answer these

1 Load of crap

2 OK, I'll go along with that, I guess. It's one of many possible options.

3 WHAT? I have no response for this it is so idiotic!

4 Fine if you don't have an HRM.

5 I have no idea how this reasoning was brought about, without a reason, it's gibberish

6 Another useless statement, see #5

7 never heard of this. I have no opinion, but I seriously doubt it based on some of his other statements

8 This one is mostly true actually.

9 also true

10 Absolutely false. The liver processes excess protein and turns it into sugar and other chemicals like amonia and urea. The sugar is then either used in the blood or stored as fat. jeez, really, he said that?

mgullette · March 2009

While I can't answer all of your questions, I think that I might have a few answers/reasons behind his statements.

1-Calories in/calories out- More than likely, your trainer supports a diet higher in protein. Because the body does not have the ability to store proteins like it can store fat/carbohydrates, it is possible that you can consume some excess calories from protein and not have the same effect as excess calories consumed from fat or carbohydrates. Not to say you can consume excess amounts over extended periods of time; your body will adjust.

2-Glycemic Index-used for diabetics especially, but ranks foods on a scale depending on their effect on blood sugar-high GI-quick acting, converted to glycogen (blood sugar) quickly; low GI- slower acting, takes longer for body to breakdown; GI is a good tool because high GI foods tend to pass through the body quickly and then you are hungrier quicker-this is why complex carbs are emphasized and 5 meals per day maintains more stable levels of blood sugar, preventing you from getting too hungry and binging.

3-I disagree; I think HRMs are excellent tools, if they are chest-strap ones; as far as the ones on the machine, well they're crap, because they don't do a constant monitor on your heart rate. It can't accurately calculate the algorithm based on a few measurements throughout your workout.

4-Talk test- if you are gasping for air and can't talk, you're above your target zone. If you can carry on a conversation comfortably but are breathing more rapidly, you're probably in your zone. If your breath isn't more rapid and you can carry on like at any other part of the day, you're not working hard enough.

5-Hmm, more of a personal judgment on how intensely you worked. Usually you can rank yourself on how hard you pushed. Pretty subjective though; I trust HRMs more.

6-It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change. It might take your body some time to adapt but it will eventually.

7-Dairy-I agree on most dairy. Milk has high levels of lactose so I don't drink it. Many people will make arguments for dairy but throughout the world there are many cultures who do not have dairy as part of their diets (many Asian cultures) and look at their obesity rates compared to ours.

8-Not a fan of soy for this reason. Other proteins are better for me, but it is possible to get fit on a vegetarian diet; it might just take more creativity.

9-not sure on this one

10-Protein is more difficult for the body to store. See above!

Hope this helps.

M

staceyw37 · March 2009

thanks. i am starting to "see the light". i am in this for the long haul, i'm tired of carrying around this extra weight. plus i want my kids to have a good example of healthy mom.

my conversation w/him started by me asking how to make sense of the calories burned from machine or wherever when i don't have hrm. (i am putting it on my wishlist but there is no money for that right now). burning calories is a major incentive for me when i'm exercising. and today i worked hard for me for 60min and only burned 200+ calories (elliptical, bike, treadmill). it was discouraging.

and then i got this barrage of information from him.

yes, michelle--it is defintiely a more high protein diet. and i hadn't really thought about the dairy element. so now i can see how dairy + pasta may be holding my body back, even during this adjustment period.
and now i know to consider glycemic index more carefully
banks and iceprincess(?) thanks for expl the science of the building blocks, and of course, the other points you made
ice princess and cmriverside(?) i appreciate learning the distinction b/n AT and PT. and you're right that i should research better if i decide to get one. i am not signing up for personal trainer any time soon. need to just do this slowly on my own and with help of mfp. and again, no $ for trainer anyway.

altogether, i so appreciate your quick and helpful responses. that's why i come to the board, reading a lot. :happy: so thank you all for helping me sort facts from fiction.
i'm sorry my post is so choppy. being home with my kids for 8+years has made me unable to think/speak coherently

thanks again for all your input!!

ivykivy · March 2009

Just a note about the GI. The GI was measured from eating on particular food alone. However when you mix foods there will be a different effect. For example a candy bar can have a lower GI than some fruits b/c it is a mixture of milk, sugar, nuts etc. That it why they tell diabetics they can have sweets but eat them with protein or fats.

lessertess · March 2009

Just my opinion:

1--NO WAY. If you have a surplus of calories you will gain weight.....promise.

2--There is something to be said for eating low glycemic foods but I wouldn't make that big a deal of it. Limit sugar and refined carbs and eat a well balanced diet of lean protien, complex carbs and essential fats....the rest comes pretty naturally. Fruit is high in nutrients and fiber but also in sugar so eat it in moderation.

3--You can do this without a HRM. It can be a useful tool but it is still just a tool. Estimates of calories burned works fine as long as you are realistic about the fact that they are estimates. Gym machines over estimate your calories burned. Assume that any web sites or the gym machines are off and subtract 20%. That's what I do and it does work.....promise. If you're having problems, assume that you are over estimating how many calories you burn.

4--Yes, you can use the talk test to determine your exertion level. If that works for you, go for it. If not, save up and get the HRM. Whatever helps you and motivates you is a workable solution. There are a lot of people who are highly motivated by their HRMs. Just seems to excite them to see the calories clicking away. Me, I'm just as happy watching the machine totals add up even when I know I have to subtract 20%.

5--Any exercise, even at low intensity is better than none. You will burn calories. However, you will burn a lot less at lower intensities. Just be honest with yourself about how hard you are exercising prior to adding those calories back into your diet. If you aren't sweating and feeling like you worked out---you could have worked harder. If I'm doing a workout that is extremely fun and I'm really working I hit a "runner's high" and feel like I can walk on water. Those are usually the times when I've burnt the most calories. However, I come out of yoga extremely energized but realistically having burned very few calories. Feeling good is not an indicator of calories burned.

6--Ok, I'm ok with this. If you have a lot of weight to lose than you can stick to the diet plan and not worry about eating back exercise calories. For example, if my deficit allows me to eat 1300 calories and I earn an extra 400 calories a day in exercise but skip two days. I can eat 1500 calories every day regardless of whether or not I exercise. The calorie deficit balances out over the week and it's a form of cycling calories. At the same time, I've calculated that when I reach my goal weight I'll probably be able to maintain at 1500 to1700 calories a day. So, essentially I'm eating now to lose weight what I'll eventually eat to maintain my weight. (assuming I maintain my exercise routine).

7--Nonsense. Some people have an intolerance to lactose but other than that dairy is a good ssource of protien, calcium and other nutrients, it's easy to pack in a lunch, is inexpensive and there is evidence that the consumption of low fat dairy supports weight loss. It's not a magic bullet but it's not to be blamed as a culpret to gaining weight either. Of course if you're smothering things in cheese....that's another story but fat free or low fat yogurts and cottage cheese make excellent nutritional snacks and a single serving of cheese (1oz) can be very satisfying and filling and won't pack on the pounds. My motto, by the way, is....EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.

8--Haven't done any research but I have my doubts. Where you put on weight has a lot to do with gender and even more to do with genetics. Mostly it has to do with eating too much and exercising too little. I don't think it can be blamed on the consuption of soy, unless you're talking about a WHOLE LOT of it. But that would be true for anything.

9--Yes, weight gain often accompanies menopause but it is not inevitable. By the way, when men get older they tend to gain more around the waist too....what's that? Male menopause? A healthy diet and regular exercise helps. Just not sure why this was even subject for discussion.

10--Nonsense...when it comes to increasing weight gain, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. Doesn't matter what you eat. If you have an excess of calories you gain weight. If you have a deficit, you lose weight. There may be some differences in how your body processes food, essentially all food is converted to energy and any excess is converted to fat.

The bottom line: Weight loss is not easy but it is simple. Create a calorie deficit---either through diet alone or through diet and exercise. Studies have shown that the latter is the more effective method.

Dave198lbs · March 2009

nicely done Ltess

staceyw37 · March 2009

you're all awesome! so many good answers and suggestions!
thank you--and good night :yawn:

stillkristi · March 2009

What I wonder is, how many calories in a boat load??:huh:

gilly88 · March 2009

whaaaaat? i drink Alpro Soy Light b/c it only has 21 cals per 100mls and is thicker than regular milk.
is it really fat-inducing?
also, so does this trainer advocate cutting all dairy and soy? the man has obviously never had water-based oatmeal...blurrgh!!

gggivens · March 2009

The biggest problem with the dairy in today's world is that it comes from cows that are fed antibiotics and hormones for all of their lives. These are both excreted in feces and urine, but they are also stored in the animal's body fat. Therefore, when we drink the milk, it contains the antibiotics and hormones. Also, the fat in the meat contains the same thing.

It is beneficial if you can find organic meat to eat, and organic 'raw' milk to drink. 'Raw' milk is very limited, however, unless you grow your own, or live next to a family run dairy. The process of pasteurization causes many of the naturally occurring beneficial enzymes to be destroyed. Without the enzymes, your body has to work harder to process the milk.

The hormones that make the cows fatter and make them produce more milk (mostly estrogens) will cause weight gain on humans as well. That is one of the purposes of estrogen (as pointed out, also a naturally occurring hormone in soy products.)

Therefore, at times, the dairy and meat products that you can find may contribute to weight gain. Try to find hormone free milk (even my local WalMart carries this- only $.20 more than the regular milk, so worth it to me.) And check with local farmers if you have one, about getting organic beef. You can also find some organic chickens, but that is harder to find affordably. Again, the hormones are why we now get huge chickens in a matter of weeks.

The answers about proteins are right on the money as well. It does take a bit more processing to convert the protein to fat, but if you take in more than your body needs the calories are stored as fat. And excreting the excess protein is actually stressful on your kidneys.

The rest of the answers you received seem right on the money. I think your 'trainer' was bogus at best. He is stuck on fad info rather than the real thing.

Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Food Diary

mgullette · March 2009

whaaaaat? i drink Alpro Soy Light b/c it only has 21 cals per 100mls and is thicker than regular milk.
is it really fat-inducing?
also, so does this trainer advocate cutting all dairy and soy? the man has obviously never had water-based oatmeal...blurrgh!!

Many people find once they cut out most dairy it becomes easier to drop the weight. Like I said, arguments will be made for dairy, and I'm not here to say if it's right or wrong, but the fact is, humans can live without it. Many cultures even consider it barbaric that we drink the milk of other animals.

As far as raw milk, I don't know if I necessarily agree....pasteurization may destroy probiotics and enzymes but it also kills any bad enzymes borne in the cow's milk as well. Pasteurization sterilizes, so I personally wouldn't take the chance, though many farmers do drink raw milk. (I don't drink milk so it's not an issue).

staceyw37 · March 2009

What I wonder is, how many calories in a boat load??:huh:

:laugh: i don't know but sign me up for that cruise!:laugh:

staceyw37 · March 2009

thanks for continuing this thread with more info. i'm printing it all out so i have it as a ready reference.

hope you all have a stellar day.:flowerforyou:

now so so confused--help help

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