Engineered to Cause Overeating

Countandsubtract
Countandsubtract Posts: 276 Member
edited July 2022 in Food and Nutrition
Junkfood trigger warning




3 questions
1)how do you reverse-engineer junk foods so you enjoy them and feel satisfied BEFORE the 1000 calorie mark?
2) is it better to junk out one day or spread the same mass out on various days?
3) has anyone noticed junk foods getting blander?


Context:
1)So apparently some processed foods are specifically engineered to have a mild flavor that tricks your brain into thinking you haven't eaten much. (The classic example is doritos, but I think it's true of many others as well. In fact, I think it might be an increasing trend in existing foods.)

Does anyone have tricks to reverse engineer the foods (ex. Doritoes) so you get the flavor AND feel satisfied early on? (Licking the orange stuff off doesn't seem to work.)


2) Is it better to eat pizza and half a bag of chips and cookies all on the same day or add the same amount of junk on multiple days. (Especially from the perspective of insulin/leptin resistance, but other considerations are welcome as well.) For weight gain, it seems like spreading it out would increase the chance that you could work some of those calories off (although if it's the same amount of total calories, would you really?) I'd figure with leptin-resistance, that would just postpone stabilizing it for the week. I don't plan on eating a lot of junk food in my future, but I don't plan on banning it forever either. I'd like to make informed choices if I know the effects.

3)I'm suspecting that more junk food/ fast food companies are jumping on this engineered-overeating band-wagon.
I've eaten fast food in the last year and I swear they've gotten blander without apparently getting healthier. (McDonald's Fries, Pizza Hut Pizza, both of whom have reformulated those items) and little debbie's and arby's. No matter how much I eat, I don't feel satisfied. Maybe it's just me, but blandness is a method of encouraging overeating, maybe especially when the food item wasn't bland before. Have you noticed it?

(On the flip side, it seems like Trix cereal actually did get better when they reformulated.)

Replies

  • Countandsubtract
    Countandsubtract Posts: 276 Member
    Oh, and if you have sources (for blood sugar and leptin especially), that would help.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    From a weight loss point of view it doesnt matter whether you eat all 'junk food' - in inverted commas because peoples definition of that varies - but I am reading yours as highly processed low nutrition, high calorie often take out foods - it doesnt matter if you eat them all one day or spread out over many days.

    What matters is that your calorie amount is, on average, about on target.

    many people look at their calorie allowance as a weekly thing rather than a daily thing.

    For nutrition it wouldn't matter either - it all averages out.

    But for some people it might matter for other reasons - eg they are not sated on junk foods so over eat or they are diabetic and need to avoid blood sugar spikes

    Barring medical reasons like diabetes - this is individual and you need to experiment and find what works for you.

    PS I dont believe the foods are specifically engineered.
  • Countandsubtract
    Countandsubtract Posts: 276 Member
    edited July 2022
    For nutrition it wouldn't matter either - it all averages out.
    Cool, good to know, that was my major question.

    Yes, I don't know about insulin effects either. I might look into more it if noone else happens to know.

    I dont believe the foods are specifically engineered.

    Totally possible that they're not, especially depending on your definition of "engineered." My understanding of junk food design was based on talking to some "food scientists," but if I remember correctly, the links below mention it as well. I've also heard it through other fairly reputable sources (which I don't necessarily consider every website to be). I think food scientists are a relatively good source.


    https://sqonline.ucsd.edu/2020/12/food-engineering-an-addictive-science/
    https://jamesclear.com/junk-food-science
    https://www.diabetichealthclinic.org/food-companies-engineering-food-addictive/
    https://www.alternet.org/2014/06/5-unhealthy-foods-engineered-be-addictive/
  • Xellercin
    Xellercin Posts: 924 Member
    edited July 2022
    From a weight loss point of view it doesnt matter whether you eat all 'junk food' - in inverted commas because peoples definition of that varies - but I am reading yours as highly processed low nutrition, high calorie often take out foods - it doesnt matter if you eat them all one day or spread out over many days.

    What matters is that your calorie amount is, on average, about on target.

    many people look at their calorie allowance as a weekly thing rather than a daily thing.

    For nutrition it wouldn't matter either - it all averages out.

    But for some people it might matter for other reasons - eg they are not sated on junk foods so over eat or they are diabetic and need to avoid blood sugar spikes

    Barring medical reasons like diabetes - this is individual and you need to experiment and find what works for you.

    PS I dont believe the foods are specifically engineered.

    Yes they are. There are many famous food engineering scientists who have dedicated their lives to engineering every little detail of food palatability.

    Food is an incredibly competitive market, and companies invest astronomical amounts of money into generating products that will slightly eek out the competition.

    There's also the issue of the food industry being the primary funder of nutrition research.

    This is all common knowledge in the scientific space.

    But you're 100% correct that none of this really matters to the individual except that they need to run their own experiments on themselves to see what works best for their own nutrition and enjoyment of food.

    I personally avoid ultra processed foods because I find them often far too salty, far too sugary, and far too bland. Which is exactly how they are engineered to taste.

    But you can easily lose a taste for those foods by rarely eating them and recalibrating your palate to more bitter, more flavourful, and less sweet foods.

    I personally can't even eat bread in the US because it tastes like cake to me. Commerical bread here in Canada is getting sweeter too. I just bought a commercial loaf for the first time in several years and was shocked at how sweet it was.

    I can only use it for PB&honey sandwiches, because it's too sugary for anything else.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    Food is an incredibly competitive market, and companies invest astronomical amounts of money into generating products that will slightly eek out the competition.

    Of course.

    That isnt what I would call engineered though
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,454 Member
    Even if food is engineered to be more palatable or more bland or whatever - it doesn't matter if it doesn't go in my mouth in the first place. Of course companies want to sell their product, so why wouldn't they research how the flavor affects people?

    I like to keep food simple. Did it grow in the ground, is it in its whole form, or is it in some sort of "recipe?"

    Eating mostly whole foods makes sense on every level.

  • MsCzar
    MsCzar Posts: 1,072 Member
    Just my own experience, but I've found that eating junk makes me crave more junk. Once I've eschewed high sugar/highly processed foods for a few days, 1) my cravings for those foods greatly diminishes and 2) I seem to have a heightened sense of taste for the more wholesome foods I do eat. I remember once having McDonald's after a long break from all junk. I was really looking forward to it and was surprised that it suddenly tasted like greasy gooey glop!

    So for me, even if it fits into my calorie budget, regularly eating junk would perpetuate my desire to have it - and worse - MORE of it. I am also careful with things like diet soda and sugar-free jello. I try not to have those things every day since they sometimes trigger my sweet tooth.
  • Xellercin
    Xellercin Posts: 924 Member
    Food is an incredibly competitive market, and companies invest astronomical amounts of money into generating products that will slightly eek out the competition.

    Of course.

    That isnt what I would call engineered though

    Here's a quote from Howard Moskowitz, one of the most famous food engineers, who has a background in I believe mathematics and psychology

    “The mathematical model maps out the ingredients to the sensory perceptions these ingredients create,” he told me, “so I can just dial a new product. This is the engineering approach.”

    We're not talking about chefs making tasty foods and calling it engineering, we're talking about computer models and literal chemical engineers who are developing exactly which synthetic additives will give an optimal "mouth feel" to a new product, along with countless other quantifiable variables.

    If what these hardcore scientists do isn't considered engineering, then half of what's called engineering shouldn't count either.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,302 Member
    Xellercin - it really isnt crucial to OP's question so I am not hijacking thread further on what exactly engineered means
    You can have the last word on that tangent. :)
  • Countandsubtract
    Countandsubtract Posts: 276 Member
    edited July 2022
    [Info for 1- you can ignore the numbers, I'm using them so I can refer back later.]
    recalibrating your palate to more bitter, more flavourful, and less sweet foods.
    That helps. I've been trying to figure out how to sort of hack my tastebuds. Bitter, flavorful, less sweet. Noted.


    computer models and literal chemical engineers who are developing exactly which synthetic additives will give an optimal "mouth feel" to a new product, along with countless other quantifiable variables.
    Howard Moskowitz, one of the most famous food engineers,

    That's really cool, I didn't know that part of it.
    I appreciate the info and backup.



    [2-leptin-adjacent]
    Once I've eschewed high sugar/highly processed foods for a few days,
    Yeah, that's one of the reasons I was wondering about leptin because that's the chemical that supposedly modulates that. So this gives me an idea on how long the time frame is. (I didn't know if it was days or months), so hopefully it will only take my body a couple of days to get back on track if I eat junk again.
    This leptin response was also part of why I was wondering if I should junk out all at once rather than a little over time-get through the junk-withdraw faster.

    I remember once having McDonald's after a long break from all junk. I was really looking forward to it and was surprised that it suddenly tasted like greasy gooey glop!
    Me too! When noone else so far seemed to think that the formula changes have been making them blander, I was starting to wonder if it was a COVID thing!

    Thank you!
  • Xellercin
    Xellercin Posts: 924 Member
    edited July 2022
    [Info for 1- you can ignore the numbers, I'm using them so I can refer back later.]
    recalibrating your palate to more bitter, more flavourful, and less sweet foods.
    That helps. I've been trying to figure out how to sort of hack my tastebuds. Bitter, flavorful, less sweet. Noted.


    computer models and literal chemical engineers who are developing exactly which synthetic additives will give an optimal "mouth feel" to a new product, along with countless other quantifiable variables.
    Howard Moskowitz, one of the most famous food engineers,

    That's really cool, I didn't know that part of it.
    I appreciate the info and backup.



    [2-leptin-adjacent]
    Once I've eschewed high sugar/highly processed foods for a few days,
    Yeah, that's one of the reasons I was wondering about leptin because that's the chemical that supposedly modulates that. So this gives me an idea on how long the time frame is. (I didn't know if it was days or months), so hopefully it will only take my body a couple of days to get back on track if I eat junk again.
    This leptin response was also part of why I was wondering if I should junk out all at once rather than a little over time-get through the junk-withdraw faster.

    I remember once having McDonald's after a long break from all junk. I was really looking forward to it and was surprised that it suddenly tasted like greasy gooey glop!
    Me too! When noone else so far seemed to think that the formula changes have been making them blander, I was starting to wonder if it was a COVID thing!

    Thank you!

    I've gone through many phases of changing the way I eat, mostly due to the relationships I was in at the time with men who insisted on eating certain ways.

    I've been able to change my palate dramatically many times.

    If I eat a lot of junk food and sugar, then I crave it like crazy. However, if I mostly eat vegetables and avoid sugar, then I can't stand the taste and texture of ultra processed food and sugar.

    Most people's palates are far more flexible than they realize, and can adapt to liking even tastes that they absolutely hate.

    Many people swear they cannot stand the taste of coffee without sugar in it, and yet I've weaned everyone around me off of sugar in their coffee and most of them find sweetened coffee disgusting now.

    It's pretty simple for me, the more I eat bitter, highly flavourful foods, the more I crave them and the less compelled I feel to over eat.

    The more I eat sugar and ultra processed foods, the more I crave those, and the more I over eat. So I don't include those as part of my general diet, because it takes will power to moderate them.

    If I stick to more whole foods, it takes no effort to only eat what I need.

    I personally do think that understanding how processes food is engineered to affect you can help you understand your own reactions to different foods. But at the end of the day, you still just need to figure out what works for you.
  • Countandsubtract
    Countandsubtract Posts: 276 Member
    Oh my gosh, there really are people reverse-engineering the junk food process! I didn't mean it this literally, but here's a snippet, plus a couple of interesting comments from the article.



    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/07/how-junk-food-can-end-obesity/309396/


    Recent studies suggest that calorie counts placed on menus have a negligible effect on food choices, and that the less-health-conscious might even use the information to steer clear of low-calorie fare




    Here's a larger snippet.
    Introduced in 1991, the McLean Deluxe was perhaps the boldest single effort the food industry has ever undertaken to shift the masses to healthier eating. It was supposed to be a healthier version of the Quarter Pounder, made with extra-lean beef infused with seaweed extract. It reportedly did reasonably well in early taste tests—for what it’s worth, my wife and I were big fans—and McDonald’s pumped the reduced-fat angle to the public for all it was worth. The general reaction varied from lack of interest to mockery to revulsion. The company gamely flogged the sandwich for five years before quietly removing it from the menu.

    The McLean Deluxe was a sharp lesson to the industry, even if in some ways it merely confirmed what generations of parents have well known: if you want to turn off otherwise eager eaters to a dish, tell them it’s good for them. Recent studies suggest that calorie counts placed on menus have a negligible effect on food choices, and that the less-health-conscious might even use the information to steer clear of low-calorie fare—perhaps assuming that it tastes worse and is less satisfying, and that it’s worse value for their money. The result is a sense in the food industry that if it is going to sell healthier versions of its foods to the general public—and not just to that minority already sold on healthier eating—it is going to have to do it in a relatively sneaky way, emphasizing the taste appeal and not the health benefits. “People expect something to taste worse if they believe it’s healthy,” says Charles Spence, an Oxford University neuroscientist who specializes in how the brain perceives food. “And that expectation affects how it tastes to them, so it actually does taste worse.”


    Thus McDonald’s silence on the nutritional profiles of its new menu items. “We’re not making any health claims,” Watson said. “We’re just saying it’s new, it tastes great, come on in and enjoy it. Maybe once the product is well seated with customers, we’ll change that message.” If customers learn that they can eat healthier foods at McDonald’s without even realizing it, he added, they’ll be more likely to try healthier foods there than at other restaurants. The same reasoning presumably explains why the promotions and ads for the Carl’s Jr. grilled-cod sandwich offer not a word related to healthfulness, and why there wasn’t a whiff of health cheerleading surrounding the turkey burger brought out earlier this year by Burger King (which is not yet calling the sandwich a permanent addition)...
  • Countandsubtract
    Countandsubtract Posts: 276 Member
    They also have some notes on how they make foods more satisfying.
    It was interesting.
  • csplatt
    csplatt Posts: 1,206 Member
    I just spread out “junk” throughout the week so it fits within my calorie goal for the day. I can weigh one serving of Doritos on a food scale and log it and not go over my goal.
  • newyorkanna
    newyorkanna Posts: 9 Member
    edited July 2022
    The food industry is THRILLED that anyone just randomly decides that foods are NOT engineered so that people can continue to justify eating processed food which is typically jammed with unhealthy fat and sugar and devoid of fiber. Of course these foods seem more bland - your addiction to them is causing you to need more of the product and more of those flavors (or, a bigger "hit") to satisfy your craving. The only way to "reverse engineer" these so-called foods is to avoid them - you cannot turn them into nutritious substances by waving a wand over them in your kitchen, unfortunately.