Can someone help me troubleshoot? What am I missing?
ExistingFish
Posts: 1,259 Member
I know calories in < calories out = weight loss. I've been doing this long enough to know this was true.
NOTE: I use TDEE for calorie calculations.
I was eating 1350-1400 calories, working out 4 days per week. I lost 5lbs in May (seems high, but probably water weight at the beginning) and 4.9lbs in June (also had covid in June).
Beginning in July, I started a new, 6-day per week program. I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency. My weight loss stalled and reversed.
So I went back to 1450 calories, working out 6 days a week. Weight loss still steady - my 7 day trend is now straight.
What gives? It's the 29th, and I've gained 0.1lbs this month - so basically maintained.
I'm starving at night after eating 1450 calories. I'm grumpy because I'm not eating. I enjoy working out so I'm not cutting back on that.
What am I missing? I could see slowing - I'm only looking to lose 0.3-0.5lbs a week, like a 1-2lb loss would have been good this month, but no.
I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss. It baffles me. It defies the logic I thought was sound.
And according to the calculators, 1450 is a 450 calorie deficit, so "sloppy" measuring probably isn't the culprit here, although I assume slices of bread are what they say they are and the packet of tuna is 2.6oz.
Any thoughts?
NOTE: I use TDEE for calorie calculations.
I was eating 1350-1400 calories, working out 4 days per week. I lost 5lbs in May (seems high, but probably water weight at the beginning) and 4.9lbs in June (also had covid in June).
Beginning in July, I started a new, 6-day per week program. I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency. My weight loss stalled and reversed.
So I went back to 1450 calories, working out 6 days a week. Weight loss still steady - my 7 day trend is now straight.
What gives? It's the 29th, and I've gained 0.1lbs this month - so basically maintained.
I'm starving at night after eating 1450 calories. I'm grumpy because I'm not eating. I enjoy working out so I'm not cutting back on that.
What am I missing? I could see slowing - I'm only looking to lose 0.3-0.5lbs a week, like a 1-2lb loss would have been good this month, but no.
I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss. It baffles me. It defies the logic I thought was sound.
And according to the calculators, 1450 is a 450 calorie deficit, so "sloppy" measuring probably isn't the culprit here, although I assume slices of bread are what they say they are and the packet of tuna is 2.6oz.
Any thoughts?
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Replies
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"I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency"
What do you mean by that sentence as exercise plays no part in calculated BMR?
Did you mean based on a TDEE calculation perhaps?
"I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss."
It's extraordinarily common for increased exercise to result in a water weight gain or simply a temporary stall in weight loss
"What am I missing?"
Patience and a long term view.
Every time you change your routine (eating or exercise) you need to give at least a month for temporary affects on your weight to even out and for your new true trend to become apparent.
The other thing you seem to be missing is that weight loss/gain/maintenance isn't the same as weight loss/gain/maintenance. Fat is a minority of your bodyweight.
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Could be a number of things. For example, not all calories are equal. Second, macronutrients (protein, fat, carbs) have different energy metabolism rates. Third, alcohol will cut in line, in front of your existing energy sources and cause existing energy sources to be stored. Fourth, different macronutrients make you feel full or make you feel hungry. Fifth, the quality of the calorie you eat makes a difference. You do not mention how much water you drink nor how active you are (cardio and resistance training). Good that you are on top of this and reaching out but more data is needed to assess a new strategy just for you.0
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"I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency"
What do you mean by that sentence as exercise plays no part in calculated BMR?
Did you mean based on a TDEE calculation perhaps?
"I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss."
It's extraordinarily common for increased exercise to result in a water weight gain or simply a temporary stall in weight loss
Yes, I use TDEE - added a note. The website calls it a bmr calculator.
This is why I have waited to worry about it. This started the 5th of July, it's the 29th. It's been a little longer than temporary, I would assume a couple of weeks."What am I missing?"
Patience and a long term view.
Every time you change your routine (eating or exercise) you need to give at least a month for temporary affects on your weight to even out and for your new true trend to become apparent.
The other thing you seem to be missing is that weight loss/gain/maintenance isn't the same as weight loss/gain/maintenance. Fat is a minority of your bodyweight.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Yes I've waited the better part of a month (lets say 3.5 weeks).
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ExistingFish wrote: »"I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency"
What do you mean by that sentence as exercise plays no part in calculated BMR?
Did you mean based on a TDEE calculation perhaps?
"I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss."
It's extraordinarily common for increased exercise to result in a water weight gain or simply a temporary stall in weight loss
Yes, I use TDEE - added a note. The website calls it a bmr calculator.
This is why I have waited to worry about it. This started the 5th of July, it's the 29th. It's been a little longer than temporary, I would assume a couple of weeks."What am I missing?"
Patience and a long term view.
Every time you change your routine (eating or exercise) you need to give at least a month for temporary affects on your weight to even out and for your new true trend to become apparent.
The other thing you seem to be missing is that weight loss/gain/maintenance isn't the same as weight loss/gain/maintenance. Fat is a minority of your bodyweight.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Yes I've waited the better part of a month (lets say 3.5 weeks).
Are you at a life stage where you have monthly cycles? If so, wait at least one full cycle - compare weight at the same relative point in at least 2 different monthly cycles. (There's no chance you're pregnant, is there?)
It sounds like you changed calorie levels (downward) within the 3.5 weeks, also, if I'm reading you right? That could muddy the waters some, too. There's the exercise increase, maybe some cumulative stress issue (you do mention grumpy/hungry).
How is your perceived fatigue level - any changes there, with the added exercise, or post-Covid? Do you track resting heart rate, and if so has that changed materially (that's a speculative reach, but I'm asking anyway)? Does the macro composition of your eating change with the change(s) in calories? Or sodium intake (asking that because mine increases when it's hot here, and it's hot now)?
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Highly unlikely (married, vasectomy - still can happen but unlikely). Am having cycles. Will wait and compare one cycle to the next.
It would be shifting from an expected 250 calorie deficit to a 450 deficit, both should have been at least some deficit. Stress could be a factor.
I don't track my RHR. My fatigue level was higher the first week of the new program, but I've adapted well. I have not felt any different post covid (well, about 2 weeks I was low energy, but that was over in June). My sodium intake hasn't increased significantly. I get less protein than I used to, but that has been going on since February - so it preexisted my attempts to lose weight.
I appreciate your attempts to help me figure this out - I use a scaled linked to an app to track my weight, so I have plenty of data - I weigh myself at the same time of day in the same state (nude or semi nude, first thing in the AM after emptying the bladder).0 -
Here are some pictures:
Hope this works.
One should show the start of my last period.
One should show the month of July.
One should show the 3 months ended with July.0 -
ExistingFish wrote: »"I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency"
What do you mean by that sentence as exercise plays no part in calculated BMR?
Did you mean based on a TDEE calculation perhaps?
"I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss."
It's extraordinarily common for increased exercise to result in a water weight gain or simply a temporary stall in weight loss
Yes, I use TDEE - added a note. The website calls it a bmr calculator.
This is why I have waited to worry about it. This started the 5th of July, it's the 29th. It's been a little longer than temporary, I would assume a couple of weeks."What am I missing?"
Patience and a long term view.
Every time you change your routine (eating or exercise) you need to give at least a month for temporary affects on your weight to even out and for your new true trend to become apparent.
The other thing you seem to be missing is that weight loss/gain/maintenance isn't the same as weight loss/gain/maintenance. Fat is a minority of your bodyweight.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Yes I've waited the better part of a month (lets say 3.5 weeks).
BMR and TDEE are very different things, my TDEE is often double or more my BMR which is why I asked what you are calculating.
No 3.5 weeks isn't at least a month, it's not even a whole month in February!
Ask yourself how much will a temporary stall matter in a year's time. If you are confident you are in a genuine calorie deficit you are still losing fat which is surely what you are trying to do.
So if you are confident your calorie balance is resulting in a deficit then just carry on, if you aren't confident then re-check your logging accuracy.
To reiterate you are missing patience and a long term view.
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I know margins are tighter trying to lose weight when you are not oveExistingFish wrote: »"I initially upped my calories to 1600-1650 based on the bmr calculations for the exercise frequency"
What do you mean by that sentence as exercise plays no part in calculated BMR?
Did you mean based on a TDEE calculation perhaps?
"I don't see how increasing my workouts reversed my weight loss."
It's extraordinarily common for increased exercise to result in a water weight gain or simply a temporary stall in weight loss
Yes, I use TDEE - added a note. The website calls it a bmr calculator.
This is why I have waited to worry about it. This started the 5th of July, it's the 29th. It's been a little longer than temporary, I would assume a couple of weeks."What am I missing?"
Patience and a long term view.
Every time you change your routine (eating or exercise) you need to give at least a month for temporary affects on your weight to even out and for your new true trend to become apparent.
The other thing you seem to be missing is that weight loss/gain/maintenance isn't the same as weight loss/gain/maintenance. Fat is a minority of your bodyweight.
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Yes I've waited the better part of a month (lets say 3.5 weeks).
BMR and TDEE are very different things, my TDEE is often double or more my BMR which is why I asked what you are calculating.
No 3.5 weeks isn't at least a month, it's not even a whole month in February!
Ask yourself how much will a temporary stall matter in a year's time. If you are confident you are in a genuine calorie deficit you are still losing fat which is surely what you are trying to do.
So if you are confident your calorie balance is resulting in a deficit then just carry on, if you aren't confident then re-check your logging accuracy.
To reiterate you are missing patience and a long term view.
I understand TDEE is different than BMR. The website I use is called a "BMR calculator" but it actually calculates all kinds of calorie requirements.
Of course it's not technically a month, but it's far longer than 2 weeks - which is about the amount of time I expect the body to need to adjust to a new activity or eating style.
Thanks for your input. I've been active on this website since my weight loss from obesity (in 2018), maintained a healthy weight from 2019 to now - I'm just trying to lose a few pounds. This isn't new to me and I don't just want a quick solution. I just want to know what changed, I was dropping weight like a stone and then it just stopped. I want the data, the facts...I'm a very analytical person.0 -
I can't give you a great image of it (limitations of how it shows up on my phone), but I have to say that your 3-month chunk looks similar to a period of time in my Libra graph. I was pursuing a quite small deficit (less than 250 calories, sometimes as few as 100-150) over a long time period, then resumed strength training regularly after a long hiatus. In Libra, the solid horizontal-ish line is the statistical trend, and the vertical lines connect the daily weights to the trend line.
I don't know if you can really see it here, but I was on a more or less steady but fluctuating slow drop, until July, then it looks like the trend starts to move upward for much of that month, then levels off again. I was sure I was still losing, because I trust my logging/goal-setting after this many years, but it looked like gaining/maintaining. I also know I tend to add about 2 pounds of water weight when I re-start strength training (which is at best an off-season thing for me, most years), and I hold onto it until I stop the strength training again. When fat loss is in the half-pound a week range, that couple of pounds of water, coupled with normal random fluctuations, can hide fat loss for a surprisingly long time, IME. (Peek a boo! 🤣)
Then, if you look at the August period, there's a decent downward bloop in the trend (the fat loss starts showing on the scale, peeking out from behind the water retention finally), another slight rise/level off (but lower than July) then mostly down-trend again. My deficit was smaller than yours, so water retention more distorting, but still.
Honestly, my best guess would be that you're OK, and just have to wait it out for a month or two. Believe me, I know that can be maddening. I could be wrong, but that explanation seems plausible in circumstances.
ETA, for context: I'm also menopausal, and still having cycles could make fluctuations even weirder. I do eat to an "average deficit" so some of the ups and downs you see in my daily weights for sure, and the trend sometimes, is a few days distortion from a higher-intake day that still leaves me in a net deficit over a few days to a week, but makes water weight roller coaster more than I would if I ate the same amount daily.2 -
Looking at your weight loss statistics the thing that occurs to me is that you might just be having a temporary stall that will right itself in a week or two more. I am guessing I am taller than you based on your phone marking 126 as the boundary between healthy and overweight(or am I misreading that). When I was losing and above my healthy weight I would lose pretty easily but then regularly hit a plateau every 10-20 pounds whether I did anything differently or not. I am post menopause due to chemo so have no hormonal or other variations to figure in. Once there is less weight to lose there is less and less margin for error in calculating calories between maintenance and reduction, and I imagine it is even harder if you are already in a low weight range to begin with. I joined MFP as I got closer to my desired weight so as to be more careful with calories and measuring and the last pounds have actually come off extremely easily and I have passed my goal weight because I found that as careful and successful as I was pre MFP I am more careful now. If you are already logging everything without errors then it is likely just a function of being at a healthy weight already and not having much calorie margin to work with in reducing. And as others have said the exercise may be resulting in water gains for muscle repair. If you are at a healthy weight perhaps a better measure is whether you look and feel like you want to feel. Working on fitness without a scale-oriented goal in mind might yield more satisfying results both aesthetically and emotionally.0
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The smaller the deficit, the more fat loss is masked by fluctuations. I'm in camp 'more patience before changing things up again'.
For me (graphs are in kg, so double the numbers to judge fluctuations), my trend went from smooth:
To the occasional uptick (notice that seemingly upward trend from mid July to mid August):
To frequent upticks:
To just plain bucking bronco (a new low weight every month or so, or even less):
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@Lietchi Those comparison graph screenshots are fabulous.
ExistingFish, with little weight to lose it's going to be rocky. New exercise, summer heat, and other factors already discussed will make it more of a struggle.
Apparently you think you have your calories set correctly, but "starving at night" may mean you need to eat a bit more. If you think you're on the number, then just Stay the Course. I really struggle with the five-pound loss I have to do every Spring. It seems to take forever. Sometimes the whole summer.
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cmriverside wrote: »@Lietchi Those comparison graph screenshots are fabulous.
ExistingFish, with little weight to lose it's going to be rocky. New exercise, summer heat, and other factors already discussed will make it more of a struggle.
Apparently you think you have your calories set correctly, but "starving at night" may mean you need to eat a bit more. If you think you're on the number, then just Stay the Course. I really struggle with the five-pound loss I have to do every Spring. It seems to take forever. Sometimes the whole summer.
Thank you. I appreciate everyone's input. I am seeing I need more patience. I will stay the course.
I'm not starving every night, just sometimes - I need to do better about distributing my calories throughout the day, my problem often comes from eating too much for breakfast and lunch, and then not having as many calories left at the end of the day - I also think I should be going to bed earlier, I think the hungry at night is kicking in because I'm tired and I really should be going to bed.
Sleep is something I'm struggling with, which probably isn't helping. I stay up too late, and wake often during the night. Drinking sleep tea at night seems to help, but sometimes I forget to leave time to make it.1 -
The smaller the deficit, the more fat loss is masked by fluctuations. I'm in camp 'more patience before changing things up again'.
For me (graphs are in kg, so double the numbers to judge fluctuations), my trend went from smooth:
To just plain bucking bronco (a new low weight every month or so, or even less):
This is more what my graphs look like, I definitely appreciate the data - it helps!
I'm going to focus on sleep this next week, I have let my sleep hygiene gradually worsen over the summer. The long days of light and ever changing schedules do not help!
It doesn't help that my husband is at a totally different place in his weigh loss journey - he is obese but losing and will soon be crossing from obese to overweight - he can eat more calories (because he's bigger) and still be losing weight easily.
I'm also going to try and balance out my carbs with more protein, I've got some non-dairy protein powders to try and I'm going to focus on eating more lean meats and veg and less processed carbs. They are so calorie dense (the processed carbs) and don't keep me full as long.2 -
Looks like everyone's gotten through all the initial stuff I was going to add, but I haven't seen any mention of NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) which was a huge realization for me. I'm only just getting back into this, but I remember when my weight stalled out in 2018, I was working out an ABSURD amount...but not actually just doing normal everyday movement like walking, gardening, standing. I was at the gym 4+ hrs a day, but outside of the gym, i was completely sedentary, which is why i stalled. I introduced NEAT throughout the day (leisurely walks in particular, but also random dancing while doing the dishes, etc) and that got me out of the plateau. Agreed with everyone else though, sounds like a lot of factors have already been covered, but I hope this helps too!2
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Looks like everyone's gotten through all the initial stuff I was going to add, but I haven't seen any mention of NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) which was a huge realization for me. I'm only just getting back into this, but I remember when my weight stalled out in 2018, I was working out an ABSURD amount...but not actually just doing normal everyday movement like walking, gardening, standing. I was at the gym 4+ hrs a day, but outside of the gym, i was completely sedentary, which is why i stalled. I introduced NEAT exercise throughout the day and that got me out of the plateau. Agreed with everyone else though, sounds like a lot of factors have already been covered, but I hope this helps too!
Yes, great idea to include!
Lots of MFP-ers shared their specific suggestions in this thread:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10610953/neat-improvement-strategies-to-improve-weight-loss/p11 -
@ExistingFish
Those last two posts of yours are really good. You've identified some healthy lifestyle changes to make and you're tackling them.
Sleep in the summer. For me, exercise, blackout curtains and a box fan are the way to go.
....and yeah, I go to bed by 9 every night or I'd be hungry too.0 -
Looks like everyone's gotten through all the initial stuff I was going to add, but I haven't seen any mention of NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) which was a huge realization for me. I'm only just getting back into this, but I remember when my weight stalled out in 2018, I was working out an ABSURD amount...but not actually just doing normal everyday movement like walking, gardening, standing. I was at the gym 4+ hrs a day, but outside of the gym, i was completely sedentary, which is why i stalled. I introduced NEAT throughout the day (leisurely walks in particular, but also random dancing while doing the dishes, etc) and that got me out of the plateau. Agreed with everyone else though, sounds like a lot of factors have already been covered, but I hope this helps too!
Thank you for the suggestion! I would say that my NEAT is the same or improved. I switched from a sitting desk to a standing desk in late June - I know standing doesn't burn more calories on it's own - but I'm more likely to move about the house during the workday if I'm already standing (fold a load of clothes, etc). Otherwise I do have a "desk" job that I do from home, but nothing has changed as far as my daily activities except changing to the standing desk.
I'll keep an eye on it, see if I notice anything I've subconsciously done different.1 -
I wanted to come back and update. I decided to switch to maintenance since I wasn't losing weight anyway and went to ~1650 calories, my weight stayed about the same for that week.
Last weekend I just didn't log and I know I went over on my calories by 400-500 each day. My weight of course spiked, but since then it's been dropping. Seen the lowest weight I've seen in years (below 120!) although it didn't stay there, the trend finally reversed after my "carb binge"
Still eating 1650 calories, and now losing weight. Was not losing weight at 1450.
There are other things that have changed, my life has become more stressful but I've become more intentional about sleep. That is probably the positive change that has made the difference, if I had to put a finger on it. It could also be stress but I think the stress would make it go the other way.
There is such little emphasis put on sleep, but I think this has been the key. The "carb binge" (child birthday weekend) kinda helped me let go, may have replenished my carb stores or something. I think the sleep is the major change factor.0 -
Glad your trend has reversed.
Just going to throw this out there. I’ve been worried about macros so have made a concerted effort to increase carbs and fats and not shoot for such high protein as I usually do.
I found myself ravenously hungry before bed.
Went back to very high protein, and hunger immediately dissipated.
I should know my sweet spot by now, but I still get carried away sometimes reading other folks ‘ suggestions.
Also- and this should have been glaringly obvious but only just occurred to me today- I’ve bumped breakfast calories up considerably. (And man, am I feeling SO much better during workouts!!!)
I usually weigh late mornings, after I’ve knocked a couple classes out, right before showering.
Weight has ticked up.
💡💡💡Well, hello, extra 2 servings of salty cottage cheese and muesli + my usual pancakes for breakfast followed by late morning weigh in. 💡💡💡
You’d think we have enough sense to recognize the obvious, but nope. 🤦🏻♀️
TL:DR be sure to evaluate any changes you’ve made, too.
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ExistingFish wrote: »I wanted to come back and update. I decided to switch to maintenance since I wasn't losing weight anyway and went to ~1650 calories, my weight stayed about the same for that week.
Last weekend I just didn't log and I know I went over on my calories by 400-500 each day. My weight of course spiked, but since then it's been dropping. Seen the lowest weight I've seen in years (below 120!) although it didn't stay there, the trend finally reversed after my "carb binge"
Still eating 1650 calories, and now losing weight. Was not losing weight at 1450.
There are other things that have changed, my life has become more stressful but I've become more intentional about sleep. That is probably the positive change that has made the difference, if I had to put a finger on it. It could also be stress but I think the stress would make it go the other way.
There is such little emphasis put on sleep, but I think this has been the key. The "carb binge" (child birthday weekend) kinda helped me let go, may have replenished my carb stores or something. I think the sleep is the major change factor.
There is that potential "long term deficit = stress, stress increases cortisol, cortisol adds water weight; re-feed (especially carbs) relieves stress, releases water weight" pattern. So, yeah, stress for the stall, refeed triggers release.
I'm 100% not saying you've done anything as extreme as this article describes, because it doesn't seem like that at all to me, but this describes that kind of mechanism in a more extreme context:
https://bodyrecomposition.com/research/dietary-restraint-cortisol-levels
If you haven't previously read it, you might find some interesting/useful glimmers in the refeeds/diet breaks thread, too:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks/p1
I'm speculating, though - clearly.
Glad you had a breakthrough - especially one that lets you eat more and still lose - no matter the underlying mechanism!1
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